Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:44 AM - Re: Battery (Brian Davies)
2. 02:36 AM - Re: Battery (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
3. 03:22 AM - Re: Rebuilding my panel (Matt Dovey)
4. 03:41 AM - Re: Battery (ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net)
5. 05:48 AM - Re: Battery (Brian Davies)
6. 05:56 AM - Re: Battery (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
7. 06:26 AM - Re: Battery (GTH)
8. 06:32 AM - Re: Battery (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
9. 06:35 AM - Re: Battery (david park)
10. 08:28 AM - Re: Re: Battery (Paul McAllister)
11. 11:08 AM - Re: Rebuilding my panel (spcialeffects)
12. 04:29 PM - Battery/Regulator (Peter & Anthea Austin)
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For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM
14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of
caution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that
automatically disconnects the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax
built in alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is
disconnected. An overvolt protection circuit should be fitted to guard
against this.
At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a
working electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more
data becomes available from the manufactures. What has already become clear
is that not all lithium batteries are suitable.
Brian
G-DDBD
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
Paul,
The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging
system needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the
range the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my
attention). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate
to fool the regulator into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower
voltage than it actually is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing
the battery into proper charging range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per
the data sheet, if memory serves.
This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can
remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages
(i.e. when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will
not disconnect from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery
box for these in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax
layer can likely do wonders too.
The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they feel
like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure.
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery
Hi All,
My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries
go).
I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in
particular what can be sourced in the US.
Thanks, Paul
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Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick
forest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical
instruments showing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that
my 914 was running on the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my
standard checking system found that both master and alternator switches
were off and order was restored before everything went quiet (I had just
returned my pee bottle to its place under my left thigh support and in
doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my trouser
bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident
with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and
Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914
would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator
before its output gets to the alternator switch. I have subsequently
deliberately switched everything off and found this to be true.
Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium
battery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to
get started, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still
expect to get home, (assuming you can find the way!)
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
> For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337
that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of caution when
using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically
disconnects the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax built in alternator
produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt
protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this.
>
> At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working
electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes
available from the manufactures. What has already become clear is that not
all lithium batteries are suitable.
>
> Brian
>
> G-DDBD
>
> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Greg Fuchs
> SENT: 09 September 2017 20:30
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Paul,
>
> The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system
needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range the
lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode
on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator
into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually is
and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging
range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves.
>
> This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can
remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e.
when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will not disconnect
from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these in
the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do
wonders too.
>
> The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they feel like
a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure.
>
> Greg
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Paul McAllister
> SENT: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Hi All,
>
> My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries
go).
>
> I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in
particular what can be sourced in the US.
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
> [1]
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com [1]
Links:
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[1]
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| Subject: | Re: Rebuilding my panel |
Hi all, I'm looking to upgrade my panel on my tri-gear classic over the winter.
Hope to fit the Garmin G3X with a G5 as back up. But this dependant on price.
Just waiting for Adams Aviation to get back to me with a quote. I intend to add
auto pilot at another point. I might be fitting a second hand GNC 255 Nav/Comm
to replace my Trig TY91.
Would also be interested in hear about peoples experiences in panel upgrades.
I'll not sure what to aim for if Garmin work out to expensive. People are warning
me off of MGL. Any thoughts on MGL. Also been told Grand Rapids are very good
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472734#472734
Message 4
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David,
The AH capacity of the LiPo4 batteries supplied as like-for-like replacements of
lead acid batteries is very much reduced (despite higher voltage and higher
CCA). One reason they are so light is because the overall pack size is made to
be the same as the lead acid "equivalent", but the actual cells hide shyly in
one corner of that package; it is largely fresh air.
So the "equivalent" LiPo4 battery will not stay alive for as long a time for those
essential systems that rely upon it, presuming the alternator or an associated
part of its system has failed.
Duncan Mcf.
----Original Message----
From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Battery
Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest,
somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no
signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel
left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both
master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything
went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left
thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my
trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident
with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy
Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue
as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets
to the alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything
off and found this to be true.
Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery
approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but
on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home,
(assuming you can find the way!)
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337
that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of caution when
using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically disconnects
the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax built in alternator
produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt
protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this.
At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working
electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes
available from the manufactures. What has already become clear is that not
all lithium batteries are suitable.
Brian
G-DDBD
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
Paul,
The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system
needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range the
lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode
on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator
into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually is
and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging
range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves.
This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can remove
the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e. when
it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will not disconnect
from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these
in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do
wonders too.
The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they feel like
a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure.
Greg
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery
Hi All,
My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries go).
I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in particular
what can be sourced in the US.
Thanks, Paul
Virus-free. www.avg.com
Message 5
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Hi David,
I think the LAA are taking a very cautious approach to lithium batteries
and this will change with more service experience. It might be worth
someone making a case for the standard Mod to be revised based on your
failure analysis, however, if an electrical fault causes the alternator
fuse to blow and the lithium battery BMS to disconnect the battery I
think you will be in a glider with a 914 but not so in a 912 so there is
a slightly higher risk.
Duncan=99s comment regarding lithium battery capacity is a good
one. The sellers do tend to focus on cranking capacity and tend to
ignore total capacity (endurance). Buying a lithium replacement that
has the same total capacity as the lead acid is an expensive proposition
so the tendency is to go for a smaller capacity. Probably not a good
idea on an electrically dependant aircraft such as a 914 model.
Brian
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of
davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
Sent: 10 September 2017 10:34
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick
forest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical
instruments showing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that
my 914 was running on the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my
standard checking system found that both master and alternator switches
were off and order was restored before everything went quiet (I had just
returned my pee bottle to its place under my left thigh support and in
doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with my trouser
bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident
with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and
Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914
would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator
before its output gets to the alternator switch. I have subsequently
deliberately switched everything off and found this to be true.
Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium
battery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to
get started, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still
expect to get home, (assuming you can find the way!)
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod
SM 14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note
of caution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS)
that automatically disconnects the battery if over or under charged.
The Rotax built in alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when
the battery is disconnected. An overvolt protection circuit should be
fitted to guard against this.
At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a
working electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as
more data becomes available from the manufactures. What has already
become clear is that not all lithium batteries are suitable.
Brian
G-DDBD
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
Paul,
The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging
system needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into
the range the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my
attention). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is
adequate to fool the regulator into thinking the battery is at a
slightly lower voltage than it actually is and so it will up its charge
voltage, placing the battery into proper charging range. I think its
13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves.
This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that
can remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high
voltages (i.e. when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged
battery will not disconnect from the airframe. It is wise to have a
good metal battery box for these in the unlikely event of a thermal
fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do wonders too.
The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they
feel like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for
sure.
Greg
_____
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul
McAllister
Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Battery
Hi All,
My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever
batteries go).
I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries,
and in particular what can be sourced in the US.
Thanks, Paul
<http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&
utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> Image removed by
sender.
Virus-free.
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utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> www.avg.com
Message 6
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Duncan, Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. The primary 914
(electric) fuel pump runs on despite the battery being sitched off (or
removed for that matter), and the alternator switch also off. I suppose
that you could envisage some scenario where an electrical major short or
the like burns out all the wiring back to and including the alternator,
but simply losing the battery doesn't stop the engine going.
Regards, David
On 2017-09-10 11:40, ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net wrote:
> David,
>
> The AH capacity of the LiPo4 batteries supplied as like-for-like replacements
of lead acid batteries is very much reduced (despite higher voltage and higher
CCA). One reason they are so light is because the overall pack size is made
to be the same as the lead acid "equivalent", but the actual cells hide shyly
in one corner of that package; it is largely fresh air.
>
> So the "equivalent" LiPo4 battery will not stay alive for as long a time for
those essential systems that rely upon it, presuming the alternator or an associated
part of its system has failed.
>
> Duncan Mcf. ----Original Message----
> From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
> Date: 10/09/2017 10:33
> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subj: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest,
somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no
signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel
left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both
master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything
went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left
thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with
my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident
with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy
Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue
as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets
to the alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything
off and found this to be true.
>
> Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery approval.
Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but
on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home, (assuming
you can find the way!)
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
> On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
>
> For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337
that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of caution when
using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically
disconnects the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax built in alternator
produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt
protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this.
>
> At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working
electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes
available from the manufactures. What has already become clear is that not
all lithium batteries are suitable.
>
> Brian
>
> G-DDBD
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
> Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Paul,
>
> The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system
needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range the
lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode
on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator
into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually is
and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging
range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves.
>
> This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can
remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e.
when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will not disconnect
from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these in
the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do
wonders too.
>
> The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they feel like
a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure.
>
> Greg
>
> -------------------------
>
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Hi All,
>
> My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries
go).
>
> I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in
particular what can be sourced in the US.
>
> Thanks, Paul
>
> [1]
>
> Virus-free. www.avg.com [1]
Links:
------
[1]
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient
Message 7
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/Le 10/09/2017 14:55, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk a crit :
/
> //
>
> / The primary 914 (electric) fuel pump runs on despite the battery
> being sitched off (or removed for that matter), and the alternator
> switch also off. I suppose that you could envisage some scenario where
> an electrical major short or the like burns out all the wiring back to
> and including the alternator, but simply losing the battery doesn't
> stop the engine going./
>
David and all,
There is a case that may leave you with a dead 914 engine with such a
setup : a Rotax-Ducati regulator overvoltage failure with a Lithium battery.
In such a case the Lithium battery will protect itself by shutting down,
and the regulator will stop supplying the pump with power. The engine
will stop within seconds.
Considering service life records, the probability of the Rotax regulator
failing is not a remote one. In that case a Lead/acid battery will still
be there and will even mitigate the OV event..
Of course some may consider Lead/acid is the past and Lithium the
future, but on what basis ?
Some years ago we conducted and in-depth study of the Rotax
alternator/voltage regulator-rectifier assembly, and concluded that the
Rotax regulator combined with the Rotax suggestion for the wiring the
pumps was not the best option for our 914.
Changing from Lead/acid to LiFePo is not a trivial issue, especially
with an electrically dependent engine.
--
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr
Message 8
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Brian, The standard wiring has the alternator going to rectifier with
output going through a 30amp slow blow fuse to the alternator switch
with the no 1 fuel pump supplied before the switch. In my case I have
fitted a 30 amp switchable contact breaker in place of the alt switch
and done away with the fuse - all this with the blessing of inspector &
LAA. This should be proof against the scenario you mention and it would
seem to need two seperate failures, of battery and either alternator or
rectifier to stop the no 1 pump. The fuel pump is preceeded by a 5 amp
contacr breaker by the way, which seems to add to the safety of the
system.
Regards, David
On 2017-09-10 13:47, Brian Davies wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> I think the LAA are taking a very cautious approach to lithium batteries and
this will change with more service experience. It might be worth someone making
a case for the standard Mod to be revised based on your failure analysis, however,
if an electrical fault causes the alternator fuse to blow and the lithium
battery BMS to disconnect the battery I think you will be in a glider with
a 914 but not so in a 912 so there is a slightly higher risk.
>
> Duncan's comment regarding lithium battery capacity is a good one. The sellers
do tend to focus on cranking capacity and tend to ignore total capacity (endurance).
Buying a lithium replacement that has the same total capacity as the
lead acid is an expensive proposition so the tendency is to go for a smaller capacity.
Probably not a good idea on an electrically dependant aircraft such as
a 914 model.
>
> Brian
>
> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
> SENT: 10 September 2017 10:34
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>
> Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick forest,
somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments showing no
signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running on the fuel
left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system found that both
master and alternator switches were off and order was restored before everything
went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its place under my left
thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggle switches with
my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly embarrassing incident
with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit of the club, and Andy
Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual the 914 would continue
as the first pump is driven directly from the alternator before its output gets
to the alternator switch. I have subsequently deliberately switched everything
off and found this to be true.
>
> Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium battery approval.
Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get started, but
on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect to get home, (assuming
you can find the way!)
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
> On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
>
>> For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod SM 14337
that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of caution
when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that automatically
disconnects the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax built in alternator
produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconnected. An overvolt
protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this.
>>
>> At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a working
electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more data becomes
available from the manufactures. What has already become clear is that not
all lithium batteries are suitable.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> G-DDBD
>>
>> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Greg Fuchs
>> SENT: 09 September 2017 20:30
>> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
>> SUBJECT: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>>
>> Paul,
>>
>> The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging system
needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the range
the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention). A diode
on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool the regulator
into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than it actually
is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into proper charging
range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, if memory serves.
>>
>> This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that can
remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages (i.e.
when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will not disconnect
from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery box for these
in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax layer can likely do
wonders too.
>>
>> The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they feel like
a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure.
>>
>> Greg
>>
>> -------------------------
>>
>> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] ON BEHALF OF Paul McAllister
>> SENT: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
>> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
>> SUBJECT: Europa-List: Battery
>>
>> Hi All,
>>
>> My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batteries
go).
>>
>> I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, and in
particular what can be sourced in the US.
>>
>> Thanks, Paul
>>
>> [1]
>>
>> Virus-free. www.avg.com [1]
Links:
------
[1]
http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient
Message 9
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I can report that my electrical system is ETX 900 with it's own protection, w
ith Schicke GR6 regulator.
(Schicke state their Regulator should not be used without over voltage prote
ction).
My system includes Schicke OVP 15.2.
The OVP has its own protection/warning light plus a reset switch in case of s
purious cut off.
My system charges steady at 14.3 v
Operated for 25 hours so far without any problem.
Regards
Dave Park G-LDVO
> On 10 Sep 2017, at 13:55, davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk wrote:
>
> Duncan, Fair enough, but that wasn't my point. The primary 914 (electric) f
uel pump runs on despite the battery being sitched off (or removed for that
matter), and the alternator switch also off. I suppose that you could envis
age some scenario where an electrical major short or the like burns out all t
he wiring back to and including the alternator, but simply losing the batter
y doesn't stop the engine going.
>
> Regards, David
>
>
>
>
>> On 2017-09-10 11:40, ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net wrote:
>>
>> David,
>>
>> The AH capacity of the LiPo4 batteries supplied as like-for-like replacem
ents of lead acid batteries is very much reduced (despite higher voltage and
higher CCA). One reason they are so light is because the overall pack size i
s made to be the same as the lead acid "equivalent", but the actual cells hi
de shyly in one corner of that package; it is largely fresh air.
>>
>> So the "equivalent" LiPo4 battery will not stay alive for as long a time f
or those essential systems that rely upon it, presuming the alternator or an
associated part of its system has failed.
>>
>>
>>
>> Duncan Mcf.
>>
>>> ----Original Message----
>>> From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk
>>> Date: 10/09/2017 10:33
>>> To: <europa-list@matronics.com>
>>> Subj: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>>>
>>> Brian, A lot of years ago I found myself over horizon to horizon thick f
orest, somewhere near the Czech border with all my electrical instruments sh
owing no signs of electricity and my assumption was that my 914 was running o
n the fuel left in the carb bowls Fortunately my standard checking system fo
und that both master and alternator switches were off and order was restored
before everything went quiet (I had just returned my pee bottle to its plac
e under my left thigh support and in doing so had managed to catch the toggl
e switches with my trouser bottom. I felt that I had to share this slightly e
mbarrassing incident with the Europa community via Matronics in the spirit o
f the club, and Andy Draper pointed out that if my wiring was as per manual t
he 914 would continue as the first pump is driven directly from the alternat
or before its output gets to the alternator switch. I have subsequently del
iberately switched everything off and found this to be true.
>>>
>>> Which makes me wonder about the exclusion of 914s from the Lithium b
attery approval. Clearly if your battery blows up you won't be able to get s
tarted, but on the face of it if it happens in flight you can still expect t
o get home, (assuming you can find the way!)
>>>
>>> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 2017-09-10 08:43, Brian Davies wrote:
>>>
>>> For those of you operating under the LAA system there is a Standard Mod S
M 14337 that gives details of approved Lithium batteries. Just a note of ca
ution when using batteries with a Battery Management System (BMS) that autom
atically disconnects the battery if over or under charged. The Rotax built i
n alternator produces avionics damaging voltages when the battery is disconn
ected. An overvolt protection circuit should be fitted to guard against this
.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> At the moment the Mod cannot be used for the 914 because it relies on a w
orking electrical system. The range of batteries will be updated as more da
ta becomes available from the manufactures. What has already become clear i
s that not all lithium batteries are suitable.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Brian
>>>
>>> G-DDBD
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Greg Fuchs
>>> Sent: 09 September 2017 20:30
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: RE: Europa-List: Battery
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The ETX36C has been used successfully for years. The Rotax 914 charging s
ystem needs to be slightly modified to bring the charging voltage into the r
ange the lithium battery likes (Jim and Heather brought that to my attention
). A diode on the 'C' terminal of the Ducati regulator is adequate to fool t
he regulator into thinking the battery is at a slightly lower voltage than i
t actually is and so it will up its charge voltage, placing the battery into
proper charging range. I think its 13.9 to 14.6 volts per the data sheet, i
f memory serves.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> This lithium battery has cell protection. It has internal circuitry that
can remove the battery from the circuit due to too low or too high voltages
(i.e. when it is overcharged or drained). A happily charged battery will n
ot disconnect from the airframe. It is wise to have a good metal battery bo
x for these in the unlikely event of a thermal fiasco. A thin Fiberfrax laye
r can likely do wonders too.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The weight savings is amazing.. When you hold them in your hand, they f
eel like a fake toy battery, but they will spin the engine right up for sure
.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Greg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-s
erver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Paul McAllister
>>> Sent: Friday, September 08, 2017 7:13 AM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Europa-List: Battery
>>>
>>> Hi All,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> My trusty Odessey battery has died and gone to heaven (or wherever batte
ries go).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am seeking peoples experience with the new style Lithium batteries, an
d in particular what can be sourced in the US.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks, Paul
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Virus-free. www.avg.com
>>>
>>>
Message 10
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Hi Jim, what model EarthX are you using? - Paul
On Sat, Sep 9, 2017 at 6:43 AM, h&jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote:
>
> Paul,
>
> We've been using an Earth X for several years. Have had no problems. It
> has a sophisticated battery management system built in. We did have to add
> a diode to up the charging voltage a little.
>
> We did an article in the Europa Flyer about it roughly two years ago.
>
> Jim & Heather
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472698#472698
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Rebuilding my panel |
Hey Matt, have you thought about dynon?
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=472750#472750
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/imga0980_161.jpg
Message 12
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| Subject: | Battery/Regulator |
Hello all,
Following on the theme of Battery replacement I have cut and paste the
following from a builders website namely =9CDog Aviation=9D.
The =9CSilent Hektik=9D F-4118 Regulator is what we want as
a direct replacement for the Ducati regulator. The F-4118 regulator also
has an added built-in feature of a four stepped voltage output
so it can be used not only on lead acid batteries, but also on AGM and
Ion batteries as well both of which benefit from the voltage
stepping.
The voltage stepping ranges from 13 to approximately 14.3 volts in four
steps spaced at approximately 9 minute intervals.
<https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OKKKQ2k0FY4/WT7BHPBfwiI/AAAAAAAAMrk/bCR1emGn5-
4zoQcsIZzglUn86KBYYGawgCLcB/s1600/Silent_Hektik_4Step_Regler.jpg>
Photo of a charging graph obtained from the Silent Hektik site showing
the charging steps for the F-4118 regulator.
<https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OKKKQ2k0FY4/WT7BHPBfwiI/AAAAAAAAMrk/bCR1emGn5-
4zoQcsIZzglUn86KBYYGawgCLcB/s1600/Silent_Hektik_4Step_Regler.jpg>
<https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OKKKQ2k0FY4/WT7BHPBfwiI/AAAAAAAAMrk/bCR1emGn5-
4zoQcsIZzglUn86KBYYGawgCLcB/s1600/Silent_Hektik_4Step_Regler.jpg>
Regards
Peter ZK-ZEB
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