Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 06:24 AM - A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... (Matt Dralle)
1. 10:51 AM - Re: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only (ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net)
2. 11:03 AM - Re: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only (ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net)
3. 12:39 PM - Re: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only (Paul McAllister)
4. 01:58 PM - Re: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only (ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net)
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| Subject: | A List Contribution - It's Your Personal Squelch Button... |
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Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only |
<<...Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a
blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap
when the flaps are up...>>Something like the attached? Which also covers the
attach bracket/bolts and the pivot bolt.
Duncan McF.
----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Yes that is sort of what I was thinking, but a bit longer towards the L/E to really blend it nicely. As for the frontal area, or Flat plate area, I think I read (tried to find it again but cant)That the FPA for drag is any surface between zero and approximately 45 degrees to the air flow, so any surface blended at an angle greater than 45 will have little to no induced form drag.And the amount of skin drag as compared to the whole skin of the A/C would be so small as to not be of any real concern I would think, again I could be wrong. Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up. If anyone knows the actual figures for the FPA I would like to know Regardscraig From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Maybe
the attached would qualify as a fence.I made these years ago but never got
around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates
edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin
and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect
of pressure recovery).Maybe one day! Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdfwhich applies to swept wings.Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed? Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.
What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain
Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zwakie
Sent: Saturday, 14 October 2017 7:01 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
jonathanmilbank wrote:
> I particularly like this quote from Bud: "The flap brackets (especially
the outers) are a huge drag source. So is the gear. Gear drag is
interesting. The legs and brake callipers actually produce more drag than
the tyres and wheels."
Exactly the two things I thought would be of interest to you and why I
posted the link (pure luck that I had read this article again earlier this
week, otherwise I would not have thought of it [Wink] )
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473511#473511
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Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only |
<<...Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a
blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap
when the flaps are up...>>Something like the attached? Which also covers the
attach bracket/bolts and the pivot bolt.
Duncan McF.
----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Yes that is sort of what I was thinking, but a bit longer towards the L/E to really blend it nicely. As for the frontal area, or Flat plate area, I think I read (tried to find it again but cant)That the FPA for drag is any surface between zero and approximately 45 degrees to the air flow, so any surface blended at an angle greater than 45 will have little to no induced form drag.And the amount of skin drag as compared to the whole skin of the A/C would be so small as to not be of any real concern I would think, again I could be wrong. Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up. If anyone knows the actual figures for the FPA I would like to know Regardscraig From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Maybe
the attached would qualify as a fence.I made these years ago but never got
around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates
edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin
and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect
of pressure recovery).Maybe one day! Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdfwhich applies to swept wings.Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed? Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.
What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain
Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zwakie
Sent: Saturday, 14 October 2017 7:01 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
jonathanmilbank wrote:
> I particularly like this quote from Bud: "The flap brackets (especially
the outers) are a huge drag source. So is the gear. Gear drag is
interesting. The legs and brake callipers actually produce more drag than
the tyres and wheels."
Exactly the two things I thought would be of interest to you and why I
posted the link (pure luck that I had read this article again earlier this
week, otherwise I would not have thought of it [Wink] )
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473511#473511
---
This email has been checked for viruses by A - The Europa-List Em========================<brsp;
nbsp; =================
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| Subject: | Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only |
For those who don't know who Klaus Savier is, he races a Varieze and is a
fanatic when it comes to drag. For the longest time Klaus was the man to
beat.
I remember going to one of his presentations and looking at his aircraft. I
don't recall if it was the hinge on the canard, or the stakes on the rear
wing but I was surprised that there was no fairing. He had rounded the
front LE of the bracket and that was all.
Knowing Klaus, if he thought he could get 1/10 of a knot gain he would put
a fairing in it.
>From this I concluded with the exception of the outrigger that perhaps
there is little value in the fairing the flap hinges on the Europa.
Just my observation as a lost soul wanting around the Oshkosh airshow.
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only |
<<...Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a
blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap
when the flaps are up...>>Something like the attached? Which also covers the
attach bracket/bolts and the pivot bolt.
Duncan McF.
----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Yes that is sort of what I was thinking, but a bit longer towards the L/E to really blend it nicely. As for the frontal area, or Flat plate area, I think I read (tried to find it again but cant)That the FPA for drag is any surface between zero and approximately 45 degrees to the air flow, so any surface blended at an angle greater than 45 will have little to no induced form drag.And the amount of skin drag as compared to the whole skin of the A/C would be so small as to not be of any real concern I would think, again I could be wrong. Obviously the inner hinge fairing could be very thin possibly even just a blending at the front and a fill insert between the two parts to close the gap when the flaps are up. If anyone knows the actual figures for the FPA I would like to know Regardscraig From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Sent: Sunday, 29 October 2017 9:19 PM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only Maybe
the attached would qualify as a fence.I made these years ago but never got
around to fitting or flying them, not believing that three 1/8" flap hinge plates
edge-on to the wind would create more drag than the greatly additional skin
and frontal areas of the fairing (although it has better form, with prospect
of pressure recovery).Maybe one day! Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
Can't find anything in the NACA library, except:http://naca.central.cranfield.ac.uk/reports/1955/naca-rm-a55c30a.pdfwhich applies to swept wings.Logically, there may be an effect in reducing the spanwise flow over the outboard section of the (fowler) flap, when the flap is deployed. But drag in that configuration is a definite advantage in getting the a/c on the ground. Might be worth exploring to see if there is any detectable decrease in stall speed? Duncan McF.----Original Message----
From: craigb@onthenet.com.au
Subj: RE: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
While on the subject of the outer flap hinge, given its location, my
thoughts were it might be advantageous to turn that hinge faring into a
"fence" to help reduce spanwise flow.
What say yee gentlemen to that. Or is it a lot of work for no real gain
Regards
Craig
Kit 577, final prep before paint
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of zwakie
Sent: Saturday, 14 October 2017 7:01 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Full trigear speed kit vs hinge fairings only
jonathanmilbank wrote:
> I particularly like this quote from Bud: "The flap brackets (especially
the outers) are a huge drag source. So is the gear. Gear drag is
interesting. The legs and brake callipers actually produce more drag than
the tyres and wheels."
Exactly the two things I thought would be of interest to you and why I
posted the link (pure luck that I had read this article again earlier this
week, otherwise I would not have thought of it [Wink] )
--------
Marcel Zwakenberg
XS TG || 912ULS || PH-SBR
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=473511#473511
---
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