Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:07 AM - Re: Cooling a Mono Classic (Roland)
2. 01:41 AM - Re: Re: Cooling a Mono Classic (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
3. 06:20 AM - Facebook (AirEupora)
4. 07:47 AM - Re: One for the books. (William Daniell)
5. 12:45 PM - Re: One for the books. (William Daniell)
6. 01:18 PM - Re: One for the books. (Pete)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling a Mono Classic |
Hi Ruedi,
I've read the thrilling story about vapour lock in the EF. You've certainly handled
the emergency as well as possible. Most important you went away from the
scene unhurt despite the very dangerous U-turn after the EFATO. Thanks very much
for sharing this experience at this point.
As for the high oil temperature (120C after take off on maximum power), I think
this shouldn't be a general problem (as apposed to vapour lock of course for
obvious reasons), especially in summer. The redline is 130C and I see oiltemperatures
approaching and sometimes even exceeding 120C in extended climbs on a
regular basis with the 914 Turbo.
Rotax wants the oiltemperature to reach 100C MINIMUM at least once on each flight
to boil the moisture out. So my understanding is, that oiltemperatures too
low are much more critical and that was also confirmed by Rotax stuff in a chat
on the AERO in Friedrichshafen. A modern semi synthetic oil should be well capable
to deal with high temperatures - that's what it was also designed for.
Full synthetic oil even more so, which I do not (yet) use for the single reason,
that I sometimes can't avoid 100LL when travelling.
That said in my Europa the CHT's were the critical bit before I finally found a
perfect set up with almost all cooling air forced through the radiator, a water
thermostat and the (7-row) oil cooler partly blanked in winter.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476809#476809
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Cooling a Mono Classic |
I am much in favour of improving the internal efficiency of the cooling
system, but it is perhaps worth reminding folk that the efficiency of
the propeller can also transform cooling. Those of you in the club can
read the report of my change from a low twist prop to a high twist one
in edition 65 of the Europa Flyer, p4 archived on the club website. In
essence most propeller blades seen on Europas (but not on WW2 fighters,
turbo props or Red Bull Racers) have low twist, perhaps 12 degrees
difference in blade pitch between the tip and 1/3 radius. This is not
nearly enough and means that at any speed above idling on the ground the
inner part of the blade is not keeping up with the air flow and is
effectively diverting air away from the cooling air inlets of the
Europa. Any plane optimised for speed has prop twist in the 24 to 26
degree range, and fitting such a prop totally transformed/abolished my
cooling issues with my 914, as well as improving performance to a degree
equivalent to an added 7.5 HP. Happy New Year, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2017-12-27 08:06, Roland wrote:
>
> Hi Ruedi,
>
> I've read the thrilling story about vapour lock in the EF. You've certainly handled
the emergency as well as possible. Most important you went away from the
scene unhurt despite the very dangerous U-turn after the EFATO. Thanks very
much for sharing this experience at this point.
>
> As for the high oil temperature (120C after take off on maximum power), I think
this shouldn't be a general problem (as apposed to vapour lock of course for
obvious reasons), especially in summer. The redline is 130C and I see oiltemperatures
approaching and sometimes even exceeding 120C in extended climbs on
a regular basis with the 914 Turbo.
>
> Rotax wants the oiltemperature to reach 100C MINIMUM at least once on each flight
to boil the moisture out. So my understanding is, that oiltemperatures too
low are much more critical and that was also confirmed by Rotax stuff in a chat
on the AERO in Friedrichshafen. A modern semi synthetic oil should be well
capable to deal with high temperatures - that's what it was also designed for.
Full synthetic oil even more so, which I do not (yet) use for the single reason,
that I sometimes can't avoid 100LL when travelling.
>
> That said in my Europa the CHT's were the critical bit before I finally found
a perfect set up with almost all cooling air forced through the radiator, a water
thermostat and the (7-row) oil cooler partly blanked in winter.
>
> Regards
> Roland
> PH-ZTI
> XS TG 914
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476809#476809 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476809#476809
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 3
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I received a message from the above address. Is this a fishing e-mail? It stated
that I had six messages with a Hyperlink.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476812#476812
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: One for the books. |
Pete,
People run these engines all the way up to 39". I run mine at 33" when I'm
alone and when at MTOW Ill take it to 35" for about 10 mins and then back
off to 30". So far, well within term limits. I haven't seen more than
220F oil temp at the max is 255F.
We all use 100ll because the mogas is poor quality and does cause
detonation.
As we all understand it, the 914 uses the same main block as the 912 -
essentially it's the same engine. So there are no issues with handling the
power.
BTW You can not use a 912S because the compression is too high.
So far we have stuck with the bings but I will have a look at the rotec
option.
If anyone wants to have a go at this Id be delighted to help. We can get
the parts made up here and Ill take them to the US on one of my trips and
DHL them.
thanks
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> Sounds like a very nice implementation! Great job you guys!
>
> At what level of boost do you start running into issues
> (preignition/overheating/twisted crank etc)?
>
> I wonder if the very nicely executed rotec sprayer, with its built in
> internal regulator (should work beautifully in a blow-through configuration
> as long as the supply fuel pressure is greater than the airbox press.).
>
> https://www.rotecaerosport.com/tbi
>
> Very high quality machined piece, with some nice features, better
> atomization, much simpler than those horrible bings etc.
>
> Cheers!
> Pete
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2017, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Pete,
>
> this is a colombian adaptation for a 80hp 912. The Colombians claim that
> they turbo'd the 912 before rotax which might be true given the
> topography. Truth is wierder than fiction in Colombia. Or it might not.
>
> My guy makes the exhaust system. It has a small truck turbo (doesnt
> really matter which) controlled by a vernier. A garret might be better but
> it works fine as it it. My Savannah has a mitsuibishi turbo and my Europa
> has an IVECO turbo. He also made the airbox and put in the oil supply and
> scavenge for the turbo. You need a 914 fuel regulator.
>
> The turbo is in the same place as the 914 turbo.
>
> You need to fit the pressure normalizing tubes between the airbox and the
> carbs and fit bigger main jets so it runs cooler. You need to tighten
> the clamps on the carb rubber too. You need nitrile gaskets for the carb
> bowls. There's some fun stuff in it too. There is a ball valve on the
> oil inlet to the turbo which which stops the oil leaking out through the
> turbo when the engine is shut down. This ball valve is always held in
> place with the ball point pen spring.
>
> The system uses the mechanical fuel pump from the 912 and an electric pump
> which means that if you have an electrical failure the engine doesnt stop.
> My engine will run at about 28" without the electric pump.
>
> And that's about it. The net result is a turbo normalized 912 for less
> than USD25k. I run mine at 33" unless I have a heavy nephew on board.
> Yesterday we took off at 35".
>
> Its pretty simple and the manual wastegate doesn't really complicate
> things. You can control power with the wastegate or the throttle. I am
> comfortable with this because I have been flying with one for 10 years now
> in my Savannah. And in the worst case with no turbo and no electrical
> system you still have a 912. You can see photos at
> https://sites.google.com/site/europaconstructionwd/
>
> Will
>
> On Dec 25, 2017 07:52, "Pete" <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays Will!
>>
>> "912 turbo" aftermarket? (Can we have more info?) or 914 turbo?
>>
>> Cheers and thx,
>> Pete :)
>>
>> > On Dec 25, 2017, at 7:11 AM, William Daniell <
>> wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yesterday I took off with my nephew who 220lbs, I'm 198 with full fuel
>> making us 16lbs over mtow.
>> >
>> > .......and the density altitude at skgy (8500) was just under 10k. We
>> climbed at 400/min to 10500.
>> >
>> > It is a remarkable machine.
>> >
>> > Happy holidays to all
>> >
>> > Will
>> > HJ460
>> > Tri 912 turbo airmaster
>>
>> ===================================
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?Europa-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: One for the books. |
Pete
Just following up on the rotec possibility.
Rotec specifically states that the device must be placed upstream of a
turbo. This could be adapted to my engine in a similar
fashion/configuration to the aerovee turbo installation (
http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/aerovee/turbo.html) ie it would
draw through the turbo into the airbox and thence to the
manifold/cylinders. There would therefore be no issue of airbox/fuel
pressure.
It seems that there are advantages
- No airbox pressure/fuel pressure issue,
- Simpler fuel system one cable no balancing, single fuel feed from fuel
pressure regulator.
- lighter (throttle body, turbo, manifold).
- Possibly more power
- possibility of leaning in Cruise.
The disadvantages
- however there is the issue of carb ice when the throttle body is
before the turbo which is something I dont have to contend with as it is.
Do you know anything about this option?
thanks Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> Sounds like a very nice implementation! Great job you guys!
>
> At what level of boost do you start running into issues
> (preignition/overheating/twisted crank etc)?
>
> I wonder if the very nicely executed rotec sprayer, with its built in
> internal regulator (should work beautifully in a blow-through configuration
> as long as the supply fuel pressure is greater than the airbox press.).
>
> https://www.rotecaerosport.com/tbi
>
> Very high quality machined piece, with some nice features, better
> atomization, much simpler than those horrible bings etc.
>
> Cheers!
> Pete
>
>
> On Dec 25, 2017, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> Pete,
>
> this is a colombian adaptation for a 80hp 912. The Colombians claim that
> they turbo'd the 912 before rotax which might be true given the
> topography. Truth is wierder than fiction in Colombia. Or it might not.
>
> My guy makes the exhaust system. It has a small truck turbo (doesnt
> really matter which) controlled by a vernier. A garret might be better but
> it works fine as it it. My Savannah has a mitsuibishi turbo and my Europa
> has an IVECO turbo. He also made the airbox and put in the oil supply and
> scavenge for the turbo. You need a 914 fuel regulator.
>
> The turbo is in the same place as the 914 turbo.
>
> You need to fit the pressure normalizing tubes between the airbox and the
> carbs and fit bigger main jets so it runs cooler. You need to tighten
> the clamps on the carb rubber too. You need nitrile gaskets for the carb
> bowls. There's some fun stuff in it too. There is a ball valve on the
> oil inlet to the turbo which which stops the oil leaking out through the
> turbo when the engine is shut down. This ball valve is always held in
> place with the ball point pen spring.
>
> The system uses the mechanical fuel pump from the 912 and an electric pump
> which means that if you have an electrical failure the engine doesnt stop.
> My engine will run at about 28" without the electric pump.
>
> And that's about it. The net result is a turbo normalized 912 for less
> than USD25k. I run mine at 33" unless I have a heavy nephew on board.
> Yesterday we took off at 35".
>
> Its pretty simple and the manual wastegate doesn't really complicate
> things. You can control power with the wastegate or the throttle. I am
> comfortable with this because I have been flying with one for 10 years now
> in my Savannah. And in the worst case with no turbo and no electrical
> system you still have a 912. You can see photos at
> https://sites.google.com/site/europaconstructionwd/
>
> Will
>
> On Dec 25, 2017 07:52, "Pete" <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> Happy holidays Will!
>>
>> "912 turbo" aftermarket? (Can we have more info?) or 914 turbo?
>>
>> Cheers and thx,
>> Pete :)
>>
>> > On Dec 25, 2017, at 7:11 AM, William Daniell <
>> wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > Yesterday I took off with my nephew who 220lbs, I'm 198 with full fuel
>> making us 16lbs over mtow.
>> >
>> > .......and the density altitude at skgy (8500) was just under 10k. We
>> climbed at 400/min to 10500.
>> >
>> > It is a remarkable machine.
>> >
>> > Happy holidays to all
>> >
>> > Will
>> > HJ460
>> > Tri 912 turbo airmaster
>>
>> ===================================
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
>> Navigator?Europa-List
>> ===================================
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> WIKI -
>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ===================================
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution
>> ===================================
>>
>>
>>
>>
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: One for the books. |
Hi Will,
I've been chatting with Paul (its designer) last year at Osh and in subseque
nt emails, and since the regulator pressure ports are now internal to the th
rottle body, and because of the function of the regulator, Paul could not se
e why it should not work in a pressurized blow-through configuration. There
was another customer in Oz who was going to give it a try, but i have not h
eard of his progress. Advantages are no carb ice, and better atomization (n
o turbo-centrifuge effects), downside higher fuel pump pressures (only relat
ive pressure is of importance - but the flip side is its also less likely to
get any vapour-lock especially with users of mogas - not you folks, but up h
ere cannuckstan Shell premium is without bio-fuels and is used widely).
If interested, you should give Paul a call/email to get the full scoop.
Cheers and thx for blazing trails..... i may go your route when my ship is r
eady for it (and if the turbo D-motor isn't yet proven -likely)
Pete
PS- the Rotec with its integral regulator is a magnitude better product than
the deficient aerovee imho.
PPS- if i do go with a FI engine route, i may still use the Rotec as the thr
ottle body giving my a backup mechanical fuel supply.
> On Dec 27, 2017, at 3:45 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> Pete
>
> Just following up on the rotec possibility.
>
> Rotec specifically states that the device must be placed upstream of a tur
bo. This could be adapted to my engine in a similar fashion/configuration t
o the aerovee turbo installation (http://www.aeroconversions.com/products/ae
rovee/turbo.html) ie it would draw through the turbo into the airbox and the
nce to the manifold/cylinders. There would therefore be no issue of airb
ox/fuel pressure.
>
> It seems that there are advantages
> No airbox pressure/fuel pressure issue,
> Simpler fuel system one cable no balancing, single fuel feed from fuel pre
ssure regulator.
> lighter (throttle body, turbo, manifold).
> Possibly more power
> possibility of leaning in Cruise.
> The disadvantages
> however there is the issue of carb ice when the throttle body is before th
e turbo which is something I dont have to contend with as it is.
> Do you know anything about this option?
>
> thanks Will
>
>
>
>
>
> William Daniell
> LONGPORT
> +57 310 295 0744
>
>> On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 9:13 AM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>> Sounds like a very nice implementation! Great job you guys!
>>
>> At what level of boost do you start running into issues (preignition/over
heating/twisted crank etc)?
>>
>> I wonder if the very nicely executed rotec sprayer, with its built in int
ernal regulator (should work beautifully in a blow-through configuration as l
ong as the supply fuel pressure is greater than the airbox press.).
>>
>> https://www.rotecaerosport.com/tbi
>>
>> Very high quality machined piece, with some nice features, better atomiza
tion, much simpler than those horrible bings etc.
>>
>> Cheers!
>> Pete
>>
>>
>>> On Dec 25, 2017, at 8:46 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.co
m> wrote:
>>>
>>> Pete,
>>>
>>> this is a colombian adaptation for a 80hp 912. The Colombians claim tha
t they turbo'd the 912 before rotax which might be true given the topography
. Truth is wierder than fiction in Colombia. Or it might not.
>>>
>>> My guy makes the exhaust system. It has a small truck turbo (doesnt rea
lly matter which) controlled by a vernier. A garret might be better but it w
orks fine as it it. My Savannah has a mitsuibishi turbo and my Europa has a
n IVECO turbo. He also made the airbox and put in the oil supply and scaven
ge for the turbo. You need a 914 fuel regulator.
>>>
>>> The turbo is in the same place as the 914 turbo.
>>>
>>> You need to fit the pressure normalizing tubes between the airbox and th
e carbs and fit bigger main jets so it runs cooler. You need to tighten the
clamps on the carb rubber too. You need nitrile gaskets for the carb bowl
s. There's some fun stuff in it too. There is a ball valve on the oil inl
et to the turbo which which stops the oil leaking out through the turbo when
the engine is shut down. This ball valve is always held in place with the b
all point pen spring.
>>>
>>> The system uses the mechanical fuel pump from the 912 and an electric pu
mp which means that if you have an electrical failure the engine doesnt stop
. My engine will run at about 28" without the electric pump.
>>>
>>> And that's about it. The net result is a turbo normalized 912 for less t
han USD25k. I run mine at 33" unless I have a heavy nephew on board. Yeste
rday we took off at 35".
>>>
>>> Its pretty simple and the manual wastegate doesn't really complicate thi
ngs. You can control power with the wastegate or the throttle. I am comfor
table with this because I have been flying with one for 10 years now in my S
avannah. And in the worst case with no turbo and no electrical system you s
till have a 912. You can see photos at https://sites.google.com/site/eur
opaconstructionwd/
>>>
>>> Will
>>>
>>>> On Dec 25, 2017 07:52, "Pete" <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Happy holidays Will!
>>>>
>>>> "912 turbo" aftermarket? (Can we have more info?) or 914 turbo?
>>>>
>>>> Cheers and thx,
>>>> Pete :)
>>>>
>>>> > On Dec 25, 2017, at 7:11 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail
.com> wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> > Yesterday I took off with my nephew who 220lbs, I'm 198 with full fue
l making us 16lbs over mtow.
>>>> >
>>>> > .......and the density altitude at skgy (8500) was just under 10k. W
e climbed at 400/min to 10500.
>>>> >
>>>> > It is a remarkable machine.
>>>> >
>>>> > Happy holidays to all
>>>> >
>>>> > Will
>>>> > HJ460
>>>> > Tri 912 turbo airmaster
>>>>
>>>> ==========
>>>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
Navigator?Europa-List
>>>> ==========
>>>> FORUMS -
>>>> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> WIKI -
>>>> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>>> ==========
>>>> b Site -
>>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribut
ion
>>>> ==========
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>
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