Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:48 AM - Re: Engine Over-cooling (Remi Guerner)
2. 05:05 AM - Spain Trip 2018 (david park)
3. 05:47 AM - Re: Re: Engine Over-cooling (Pete)
4. 06:06 AM - Re: Re: Europa-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/19/17 (Bob Harrison)
5. 08:33 AM - Re: Engine Over-cooling (Remi Guerner)
6. 09:58 AM - Re: Replacement fuel filler pipe for CLASSIC as per SM 13070 (JohnFrance)
7. 02:02 PM - Re: Engine Over-cooling (Roland)
8. 02:05 PM - Re: Engine Over-cooling (JonSmith)
9. 02:12 PM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/19/17 (Roland)
10. 02:30 PM - Re: Re: Engine Over-cooling (Pete)
11. 06:16 PM - Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (William Daniell)
12. 06:29 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Pete)
13. 06:40 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Pete)
14. 07:19 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (William Daniell)
15. 11:01 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
16. 11:07 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
After experimenting for 16 years with the cooling of my Europa XS, I found that
the best results are obtained with the installation of an effective cowl flap.
The cowl flap does two things:
1. increasing the exit area of the cowl to improve the airflow through the radiators
for a better cooling on the ground and during full power climb in summer.
2. Reducing that exit area to limit that flow and allow high enough oil and water
temperatures at cruise especially in winter. For that matter, I found that
a cowl flap is not effective unless it can reduce the exit area by at least 90%.
Then the last few percents make a big difference. Additionally, the closed
cowl flap accelerate the warm up of the engine and allows a very effective cabin
heating in winter.
Attached are a few pics of my cowl flap configuration. The key features are:
a. The flap controls the airflow through the radiator+oil cooler exclusively. The
flow entering the cowl through the round inlets is not affected by the position
of the flap as it can escape on the sides and behind the flap. This allows
to keep the heat sensitive accessories (battery, ignition modules, voltage regulator)
and fuel system cool enough even with the cowl flap fully closed.
b. When the flap is fully closed, the only way for the hot air from the radiators
to escape is through the 1-3/4" SCAT ducting to the cockpit (when the cabin
heat flap is open) and the leaks. Therefore most of the hot air is forced to
the cockpit. That makes the heating as effective as in a car.
c. My water radiator is a specially made one with two more rows (110 mm height)
than the factory standard. This change was necessary to help solve the ground
cooling issue. The oil cooler is still the 13 row Mocal that is covered 30% all
year round and more in winter. I intend to replace it with a 7 row version
with some more cowling work to further reduce drag. No thermostat.
Remi Guerner
F-PGKL
XS mono, 912ULS
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476943#476943
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010021a_212.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010020a_205.jpg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010018a_279.jpg
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So far the following have shown an interest in the Spain Trip 2018. If
I have missed anyone please contact me.
Those who are interested could you please contact me with you full
contact details i.e.. email address and mobile number, Trike/Mono,
Registration. I already have those starred*.
*Dave Park
*David Joyce
*Bob Hitchcock
*Alasdair Milne
John Archer
Mike Potts
Derek Shipley
Bob Dawson?
Happy New Year
Dave G-LDVO
Message 3
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
Hi Remi,
Happy new year!
Congrats on your successful setup - looks very nice! and thanks for confirming
my optimistic theory that cabin heat could indeed be taken from the fully choked
radiators. Could you tell me the coldest air that your cabin heat has successfully
dealt with?
Cheers,
Pete
> On Jan 1, 2018, at 5:48 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner@orange.fr> wrote:
>
>
> After experimenting for 16 years with the cooling of my Europa XS, I found that
the best results are obtained with the installation of an effective cowl flap.
The cowl flap does two things:
> 1. increasing the exit area of the cowl to improve the airflow through the radiators
for a better cooling on the ground and during full power climb in summer.
> 2. Reducing that exit area to limit that flow and allow high enough oil and water
temperatures at cruise especially in winter. For that matter, I found that
a cowl flap is not effective unless it can reduce the exit area by at least
90%. Then the last few percents make a big difference. Additionally, the closed
cowl flap accelerate the warm up of the engine and allows a very effective cabin
heating in winter.
> Attached are a few pics of my cowl flap configuration. The key features are:
> a. The flap controls the airflow through the radiator+oil cooler exclusively.
The flow entering the cowl through the round inlets is not affected by the position
of the flap as it can escape on the sides and behind the flap. This allows
to keep the heat sensitive accessories (battery, ignition modules, voltage
regulator) and fuel system cool enough even with the cowl flap fully closed.
> b. When the flap is fully closed, the only way for the hot air from the radiators
to escape is through the 1-3/4" SCAT ducting to the cockpit (when the cabin
heat flap is open) and the leaks. Therefore most of the hot air is forced to
the cockpit. That makes the heating as effective as in a car.
> c. My water radiator is a specially made one with two more rows (110 mm height)
than the factory standard. This change was necessary to help solve the ground
cooling issue. The oil cooler is still the 13 row Mocal that is covered 30%
all year round and more in winter. I intend to replace it with a 7 row version
with some more cowling work to further reduce drag. No thermostat.
> Remi Guerner
> F-PGKL
> XS mono, 912ULS
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476943#476943
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010021a_212.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010020a_205.jpg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/p1010018a_279.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/19/17 |
Hi! Roland,
Happy New Year .
No the main concern has been about Classic fillers located in the top of the
roof (long pipe) down to the tank. Although the failure Shown was between
the Cobra filling moulding and the tank.
Tim Wards Bent metal pipe is for between the Cobra and the tank.
The purpose of the metal piece was to reduce the smell of fuel ( obviously
in those days from absorbent rubber, especially being such a long pipe.
Regards
Bob Harrison. G-PTAG Classic Wings XS Cockpit Moulding .
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Roland
Sent: 30 December 2017 20:34
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/19/17
I thought we were talking about XS all the time? I hope so, since I also
have an XS.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476891#476891
---
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
Pete,
The present version of my cowl flap was installed in May 2016. So that is only
the second winter with that configuration. It was tested down to about minus 5C.
At this temp I was using only one tens of the stroke of the heat flap control.
When I have the opportunity to fly at lower temperatures, I will make some
measurements.
Remi
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476956#476956
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Subject: | Re: Replacement fuel filler pipe for CLASSIC as per SM 13070 |
Hello to All and best wishes for 2018!
This is a last call for Classic Europa owners using the long rubber centrally mounted
fuel filler hose for one made of aluminium.
A batch will be ordered in a couple of weeks, further batches will require a minimum
quantity of 10 off. If you think it will be necessary to change yours any
time soon this might be the occasion.
Here are the details:
The tube will cost 195 or 214.50 plus postage. Postage within France is 25 and
to other European countries 30 (27.25) which includes insurance for 200.
PM me at 77alembert at gmail.com if you are interested
Regards,
John
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476960#476960
Message 7
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
Remi, that is a very clean setup and an Incredible effective cabin heater. I have
a flap behind the oil cooler, but it's limit is about -5C OAT at 80C oil with
normal clothing, especially at high altitude in the thin air. BTW many certified
aircraft have this problem as well.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476968#476968
Message 8
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
Hi Carl and Remi. Thank you for your thoughts (and photos Remi). I have thought
for a while that some sort of cowl flap would be advantageous on such a closely
cowled and fast aircraft. My cooling is currently just adequate on the
ground (with a bit of time and effort I should be able to improve that a little)
but as mentioned, overcools considerably in the air! Im going to look into
the cowl flap idea.
Cheers!
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476969#476969
Message 9
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Subject: | Re: Europa-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 12/19/17 |
Hello Bob,
a happy new year for you, too!
As you know, I have a XS and so it was important, that Tim's aluminium pipe fits
for my Europa as well, which it does apperently. I also know of at least two
other XS Europas, which installed Tim's pipes more than ten years ago.
A reduction of the fuel smell in my cockpit would also be highly appreciated.
Regards
Roland
PH-ZTI
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476971#476971
Message 10
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Subject: | Re: Engine Over-cooling |
I will be eagerly awaiting your colder/higher data Remi, and am hopeful that since
the ~40hp of waste heat is available regardless of outside temp, your tight
cowling and flap should still heat the cabin adequately. With the reduction
of cooling drag and the gain in cabin heat, it sounds like a win-win situation
:)
Cheers and blue skies,
Pete
> On Jan 1, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Remi Guerner <air.guerner@orange.fr> wrote:
>
>
> Pete,
> The present version of my cowl flap was installed in May 2016. So that is only
the second winter with that configuration. It was tested down to about minus
5C. At this temp I was using only one tens of the stroke of the heat flap control.
When I have the opportunity to fly at lower temperatures, I will make some
measurements.
> Remi
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=476956#476956
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 11
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Subject: | Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list.
At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS
and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%.
Thanks in advance Will
Message 12
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Subject: | Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
TAS from my research.
https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
Cheers,
Pete
> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> w
rote:
>
> I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list.
>
> At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS a
nd TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%.
>
> Thanks in advance Will
Message 13
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Subject: | Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS
> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
> TAS from my research.
> https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
>
> Cheers,
> Pete
>
>
>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
wrote:
>>
>> I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list.
>>
>> At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS
and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%.
>>
>> Thanks in advance Will
Message 14
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Subject: | Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
Mmmm....why the difference? The way I read the article it says that TAS is
the critical value. For most pilot this discussion is irrelevant because
the real issue occurs at altitude. However since we all fly here regularly
at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant.
Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I'll stick with
TAS as the key value.
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS
On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
TAS from my research.
https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf
Cheers,
Pete
On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
wrote:
I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list.
At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS
and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%.
Thanks in advance Will
Message 15
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respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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|
Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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