---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/04/18: 9 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:44 AM - Re: Re: LAA Airworthiness Alert. AIL December 2017 All Europas (craig) 2. 08:25 AM - Re: Engine Over-cooling (h&jeuropa) 3. 01:44 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Pete) 4. 02:01 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Tim Ward) 5. 02:22 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? () 6. 02:32 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 02:44 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Pete) 8. 02:49 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Pete) 9. 07:16 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:14 AM PST US From: "craig" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: LAA Airworthiness Alert. AIL December 2017 All Europas FYIW I installed the alloy elbow at build stage and used a commercial fuel tanker delivery hose to connect each end the supplier was willing To sell me half a metre, the spec sheet claimed it to be completely impervious to all fuel types including methanol which I believe is the most Troublesome of fuel types Regards Craig Kit 577 -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of JonSmith Sent: Wednesday, 3 January 2018 5:49 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: LAA Airworthiness Alert. AIL December 2017 All Europas --> Thanks for the update Brian. Just out of interest does the mod call for any special clamps for the silicone hose or are the standard factory jubilee clips suitable? Ive no experience with silicone hose but Im led to believe it is softer and have heard you can get clips with rounded edges to suit it better. -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477018#477018 --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. http://www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:25:04 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Engine Over-cooling From: "h&jeuropa" At Oshkosh 2016, Erich Trombley showed us the cowl flap he fitted. We have copied it and find it provides similar benefits as Remi described. The only difference from Remi's is that we use a electric actuator and display cowl flap position on our EFIS. The actuator is a Actuonix L16-50-150-12-P Here is a photo showing the actuator and the flap. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477072#477072 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_0265_157.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:12 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? From: Pete Great article Will, thx! I wonder now how the europa was tested wrt Vne and if Vd was tested/is speci fied, if there is a IAS/density altitude table, and if the the published Vne is structural or flutter? Is Ivan lurking? ;-) Cheers, Pete > On Jan 3, 2018, at 7:23 AM, William Daniell w rote: > > Pete > > I found this http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/vne-and-flutter-expla ined > > What do you think think? > > Will > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > On Jan 1, 2018 22:19, "William Daniell" wrot e: > Mmmm....why the difference? The way I read the article it says that TAS i s the critical value. For most pilot this discussion is irrelevant because the real issue occurs at altitude. However since we all fly here regularly at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant. > > Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I'll stick with T AS as the key value. > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" wrote: > Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS > >> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete wrote: >> >> TAS from my research. >> https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf >> >> Cheers, >> Pete >> >> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell wrote: >>> >>> I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list. >>> >>> At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IA S and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%. >>> >>> Thanks in advance Will > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:01:46 PM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? I am sure Peter Clark would have done those manoeuvres in the flight testing . Must look at his notes again. Tim Sent from my iPhone Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Hom 03315166 > On 5/01/2018, at 10:43 AM, Pete wrote: > > Great article Will, thx! > > I wonder now how the europa was tested wrt Vne and if Vd was tested/is spe cified, if there is a IAS/density altitude table, and if the the published V ne is structural or flutter? > > Is Ivan lurking? ;-) > > Cheers, > Pete > >> On Jan 3, 2018, at 7:23 AM, William Daniell wrote: >> >> Pete >> >> I found this http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/vne-and-flutter-expl ained >> >> What do you think think? >> >> Will >> >> William Daniell >> LONGPORT >> +57 310 295 0744 >> >> On Jan 1, 2018 22:19, "William Daniell" wro te: >> Mmmm....why the difference? The way I read the article it says that TAS i s the critical value. For most pilot this discussion is irrelevant because the real issue occurs at altitude. However since we all fly here regularly at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant. >> >> Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I'll stick with T AS as the key value. >> >> William Daniell >> LONGPORT >> +57 310 295 0744 >> >> On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" wrote: >> Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS >> >>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete wrote: >>> >>> TAS from my research. >>> https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Pete >>> >>> >>>> On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell wrote: >>>> >>>> I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list. >>>> >>>> At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between I AS and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%. >>>> >>>> Thanks in advance Will >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:22:01 PM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just taken to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge we have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. Ivan From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 04 January 2018 22:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? I am sure Peter Clark would have done those manoeuvres in the flight testing. Must look at his notes again. Tim Sent from my iPhone Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Hom 03315166 On 5/01/2018, at 10:43 AM, Pete > wrote: Great article Will, thx! I wonder now how the europa was tested wrt Vne and if Vd was tested/is specified, if there is a IAS/density altitude table, and if the the published Vne is structural or flutter? Is Ivan lurking? ;-) Cheers, Pete On Jan 3, 2018, at 7:23 AM, William Daniell > wrote: Pete I found this http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/vne-and-flutter-explained What do you think think? Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Jan 1, 2018 22:19, "William Daniell" > wrote: Mmmm....why the difference? The way I read the article it says that TAS is the critical value. For most pilot this discussion is irrelevant because the real issue occurs at altitude. However since we all fly here regularly at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant. Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I'll stick with TAS as the key value. William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" > wrote: Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete > wrote: TAS from my research. https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf Cheers, Pete On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell > wrote: I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list. At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%. Thanks in advance Will ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:32:38 PM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? Jonslight adjustment, air molecules don't have volume, it's the Mass that c ounts I think.=C2-Graham=C2- On Thursday, 4 January 2018, 22:22, "ivanshaw@btinternet.com" wrote: #yiv3280697347 #yiv3280697347 -- _filtered #yiv3280697347 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;} _filtered #yiv3280697347 {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}#yiv3280697347 #yiv3280697347 p.yiv3280697347MsoNormal, # yiv3280697347 li.yiv3280697347MsoNormal, #yiv3280697347 div.yiv3280697347Ms oNormal {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv3280697347 a:link, #yiv3280697347 span.yiv3280697347MsoHyperlink {color:blue;text-deco ration:underline;}#yiv3280697347 a:visited, #yiv3280697347 span.yiv32806973 47MsoHyperlinkFollowed {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}#yiv3280697 347 p.yiv3280697347msonormal0, #yiv3280697347 li.yiv3280697347msonormal0, # yiv3280697347 div.yiv3280697347msonormal0 {margin-right:0cm;margin-left:0cm ;font-size:11.0pt;}#yiv3280697347 span.yiv3280697347EmailStyle18 {color:win dowtext;}#yiv3280697347 .yiv3280697347MsoChpDefault {font-size:10.0pt;} _fi ltered #yiv3280697347 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}#yiv3280697347 d iv.yiv3280697347WordSection1 {}#yiv3280697347 All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just taken to the speed but then teste d [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft . We have never experi enced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge we have not had any report ed flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. =C2-Ivan =C2-From: owner-europa-list-server@matr onics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward Sent: 04 January 2018 22:01 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? =C2-I am sure Peter Clark would have done those manoeuvres in the flight testing. =C2-Must lo ok at his notes again.Tim=C2- Sent from my iPhone =C2-Tim Ward12 Waiwetu StreetFendalton=C2-CHRISTCHU RCH 8052Hom 03315166 On 5/01/2018, at 10:43 AM, Pete wrote: Great article Will, thx! =C2-I wonder now how the europa was tested wrt V ne and if Vd was tested/is specified, if there is a IAS/density altitude ta ble, and if the the published Vne is structural or flutter? =C2-Is Ivan l urking? ;-) =C2-Cheers,Pete On Jan 3, 2018, at 7:23 AM, William Daniell w rote: Pete =C2-I found this=C2-http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/vne-an d-flutter-explained =C2-What do you think think? =C2-Will =C2-William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 =C2-On Jan 1, 2018 22:19, "William Daniell" wrote: Mmmm....why the difference?=C2- The way I read the article it says that T AS is the critical value.=C2- =C2-For most pilot this discussion is irr elevant because the real issue occurs at altitude.=C2- However since we a ll fly here regularly at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant. =C2-Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I 'll stick with TAS as the key value. =C2-William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 =C2-On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" wrote: Oops.... I mis-stated.=C2- VNE=TAS. Va=IAS On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete wrote: TAS from my research.https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf =C2-Ch eers,Pete =C2- On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell w rote: I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list. =C2 -At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IA S and TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%. =C2-Thanks in advance Will =C2- =C2- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:44:51 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? From: Pete Many thanks Ivan! That is comforting to know (and i'm not surprised ;) Any idea what was done with the glider wings? They would be a good candidate for an IAS/density alt table :-) Thx again! Pete > On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, wrote: > > All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just tak en to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any f lutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 80 00ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail pl ane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge w e have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you me ntioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. > > Ivan > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-ser ver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Tim Ward > Sent: 04 January 2018 22:01 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? > > I am sure Peter Clark would have done those manoeuvres in the flight testi ng. Must look at his notes again. > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street > Fendalton > CHRISTCHURCH 8052 > Hom 03315166 > > On 5/01/2018, at 10:43 AM, Pete wrote: > > Great article Will, thx! > > I wonder now how the europa was tested wrt Vne and if Vd was tested/is spe cified, if there is a IAS/density altitude table, and if the the published V ne is structural or flutter? > > Is Ivan lurking? ;-) > > Cheers, > Pete > > On Jan 3, 2018, at 7:23 AM, William Daniell w rote: > > Pete > > I found this http://www.australianflying.com.au/news/vne-and-flutter-expla ined > > What do you think think? > > Will > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > On Jan 1, 2018 22:19, "William Daniell" wrot e: > Mmmm....why the difference? The way I read the article it says that TAS i s the critical value. For most pilot this discussion is irrelevant because the real issue occurs at altitude. However since we all fly here regularly at over 12k often in mountain turbulence this is very relevant. > > Anyway luckily my dynon shows IAS TAS and GS and for now I'll stick with T AS as the key value. > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +57 310 295 0744 > > On Jan 1, 2018 21:43, "Pete" wrote: > Oops.... I mis-stated. VNE=TAS. Va=IAS > > On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:29 PM, Pete wrote: > > TAS from my research. > https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/hp_limts.pdf > > Cheers, > Pete > > > On Jan 1, 2018, at 9:15 PM, William Daniell w rote: > > I seem to recall a discussion on this but I can't find it on the list. > > At 12000 ft DA at which I was flying today, the difference is between IAS a nd TAS is 20 kts or roughly 20%. > > Thanks in advance Will > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 02:49:55 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? From: Pete Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA? Thanks again! Pete > On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, wrote: > > All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just tak en to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any f lutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 80 00ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail pl ane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge w e have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you me ntioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. > > Ivan > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 07:16:57 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? Yep Graham, Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic pressure is =BD Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actually y ou have calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV g uys got all hung up on this and confused everyone. Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. TAS is import ant (actually Mach number) as the skin heats up due to friction which is a different ball of wax. I was always a slow speed aero guy to match my mind .. Regards, Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Window s 10 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Pete Sent: Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:49:37 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA? Thanks again! Pete On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, > > wrote: All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just take n to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowled ge we have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As y ou mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. Ivan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.