Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 02:31 AM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (JonSmith)
2. 01:04 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (William Daniell)
3. 01:41 PM - In flight facilities (graeme bird)
4. 02:48 PM - Re: In flight facilities (david park)
5. 02:55 PM - Re: In flight facilities (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 03:13 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or =?UTF-8?Q?TAS=3F? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
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Subject: | Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
budyerly(at)msn.com wrote:
> Yep Graham,
> Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic
pressure is Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actually you have
calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys got all
hung up on this and confused everyone.
>
> Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts.
Hi Bud, scenario: flying at 10,000 with standard pressure and temperature with
IAS of 165kts the TAS calculates to be 190kts. Are you saying that is OK?
Currently I feel not. Im always open to (non technical!) well reasoned persuasion
and argument but even despite Ivanss welcoming and comforting story about
the flutter trials I would have thought this puts one into unknown territory.
Agreed that structural issues are related to IAS but I feel that specifically,
flutter issues relate to the actual speed with which particles pass by!
HOWEVER - if the design and testing criteria is that the VNE is based on IAS and
that flutter is proven not to occur at any TAS that could concievably be reached
at that maximum IAS then I guess that my thinking about VNE (whilst conservative)
has been wrong!
My opinion was from my gliding days where in mountain wave conditions we could
get very high, circa 25,000. Sometimes we would descend afterwards from high
altitude at high speed to lose height; with VNE of 135kts common in gliders the
TAS could be extremely high - up to 200kts! Im sure I can remember some gliders
flight manuals warning of this and that VNE was TAS based - but it was a
long time ago!
Graham - thanks for that. Mass sounds better! I said I was at schoolboy level.
But a schoolboy would have known that so I am below that level even! I was
referring to the amount or number of molecules and yes, mass is better than
volume!
--------
G-TERN
Classic Mono
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477096#477096
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Subject: | Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? |
Bud
Does this apply even at the upper altitude range ....say 13k or 15k?
Will
On Jan 4, 2018 22:19, "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
Yep Graham,
Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone.
Dynamic pressure is =C2=BD Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actuall
y you
have calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys
got all hung up on this and confused everyone.
Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. TAS is
important (actually Mach number) as the skin heats up due to friction which
is a different ball of wax. I was always a slow speed aero guy to match my
mind.
Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windo
ws
10
------------------------------
*From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@
matronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
*Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:49:37 PM
*To:* europa-list@matronics.com
*Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS?
Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA?
Thanks again!
Pete
On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, <ivanshaw@btinternet.com> <
ivanshaw@btinternet.com> wrote:
All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just
taken to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if
any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up
to 8000ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the
tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my
knowledge we have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire
fleet. As you mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions.
Ivan
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Subject: | In flight facilities |
Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa?
I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast and
a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose clothing
and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode
anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift
around.
Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process.
I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-)
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis
AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus,
SmartA3
325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109
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Subject: | Re: In flight facilities |
Max 2 1/2 hour legs!!!
G-LDVO
Dave Park
> On 5 Jan 2018, at 21:40, graeme bird <graeme@gdbmk.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa?
> I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast
and a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose
clothing and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode
anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift
around.
> Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process.
> I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-)
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis
AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus,
SmartA3
> 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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Subject: | Re: In flight facilities |
Graeme, This doctor uses a bottle, which fits nicely in thegap under the
high support. You really ned two hands for it, so ideally you have an
autopilot to hold the fort whilst you do the business. I have only had
two disturbing incidents over the years:
Quite a lot of years ago I was flying solo out to Prague, and
approaching the Czech border I had noticed that there was nothing but
dense forest all the way to the distant horizon, and tought that would
not be a good place for the engine to go quiet. Possibly the thought was
enough to tense the bladder, so out came the bottle. Having completed
the manoeuvre I looked at the panel and found everything electrical was
dead! The engine being a 914 was relying on electricity to run its two
fuel pimps, which induced a bit of urgrncy in may emergency checks.
Fortunately I started in the right place and found that the toggle
switches for master & alternator were both off, having been snared by my
trouser bottom when I lifted my leg to replace the bottle. At the time I
thought this was a very lucky escape and felt obliged to report the
incident on this forum, only to be told by Andy Draper that if I had
wired things properly it wouldn't stop anyway, as the pump is supplied
by the alternator upstream of alternator switch.
The other incident was slightly more embarrassing! I was on a Dawn to
Dusk Challenge flight down in S France with a long range tank and we
were at the end of a long leg. My mate was flying whilst I made use of
the facilities and in mid flow the engine coughed and stopped. Instantly
and in a slightly tense voice came, "You have control!" Not good timing!
(The engine had stopped because we had run the main tank dry and for the
first time ever, the long range tank had not auto siphoned).
Many of my gliding friends did have funnels connected to a tube, but
they ended up with dried out uric acid crystals under the fuselage
(which would not be good for the mono tail wheel & spring!) but again
even for 7 or 8 hour flights I found a bottle adequate
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2018-01-05 21:40, graeme bird wrote:
>
> Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa?
> I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast
and a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose
clothing and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode
anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift
around.
> Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process.
> I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-)
>
> --------
> Graeme Bird
> G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis
AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus,
SmartA3
> 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
> g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109 [1]
>
Links:
------
[1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109
[2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
[3] http://forums.matronics.com
[4] http://wiki.matronics.com
[5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution
Message 6
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Subject: | Are Vne and Va IAS or =?UTF-8?Q?TAS=3F? |
I can happily accept that IAS is what matters in relation to flutter at
any height, but there is another aspect where I suspect that TAS becomes
more relevant. If you set out to do say a rate 1 turn at altitude you
are going to have to bank more steeply and pull more g and come closer
to a stall than would be the case at the same IAS at lower altitudes. In
most circumstances that wouldn't matter too much, but I guess it means
that as you go up a mountain valley you need progressively more
lateral,space to do an escape 180 turn, (whilst the valley is probably
getting progressively narrower)
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2018-01-05 21:03, William Daniell wrote:
> Bud
> Does this apply even at the upper altitude range ....say 13k or 15k?
> Will
>
> On Jan 4, 2018 22:19, "Bud Yerly" <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
>
> Yep Graham,
>
> Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic
pressure is Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actually you have calibrated
then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys got all hung
up on this and confused everyone.
>
> Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. TAS is important
(actually Mach number) as the skin heats up due to friction which is a different
ball of wax. I was always a slow speed aero guy to match my mind.
>
> Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
> Sent from Mail [1] for Windows 10
>
> -------------------------
>
> FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
on behalf of Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
> SENT: Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:49:37 PM
>
> TO: europa-list@matronics.com
> SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS?
>
> Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA?
>
> Thanks again!
> Pete
>
> On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, <ivanshaw@btinternet.com> <ivanshaw@btinternet.com>
wrote:
>
> All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just taken
to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter
mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft .
We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced
and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge we have not
had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you mentioned Pete
did exceed Vd on a few occasions.
>
> Ivan
Links:
------
[1] https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986
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