---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 01/05/18: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 02:31 AM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (JonSmith) 2. 01:04 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? (William Daniell) 3. 01:41 PM - In flight facilities (graeme bird) 4. 02:48 PM - Re: In flight facilities (david park) 5. 02:55 PM - Re: In flight facilities (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 03:13 PM - Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or =?UTF-8?Q?TAS=3F? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 02:31:11 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? From: "JonSmith" budyerly(at)msn.com wrote: > Yep Graham, > Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic pressure is Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actually you have calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys got all hung up on this and confused everyone. > > Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. Hi Bud, scenario: flying at 10,000 with standard pressure and temperature with IAS of 165kts the TAS calculates to be 190kts. Are you saying that is OK? Currently I feel not. Im always open to (non technical!) well reasoned persuasion and argument but even despite Ivanss welcoming and comforting story about the flutter trials I would have thought this puts one into unknown territory. Agreed that structural issues are related to IAS but I feel that specifically, flutter issues relate to the actual speed with which particles pass by! HOWEVER - if the design and testing criteria is that the VNE is based on IAS and that flutter is proven not to occur at any TAS that could concievably be reached at that maximum IAS then I guess that my thinking about VNE (whilst conservative) has been wrong! My opinion was from my gliding days where in mountain wave conditions we could get very high, circa 25,000. Sometimes we would descend afterwards from high altitude at high speed to lose height; with VNE of 135kts common in gliders the TAS could be extremely high - up to 200kts! Im sure I can remember some gliders flight manuals warning of this and that VNE was TAS based - but it was a long time ago! Graham - thanks for that. Mass sounds better! I said I was at schoolboy level. But a schoolboy would have known that so I am below that level even! I was referring to the amount or number of molecules and yes, mass is better than volume! -------- G-TERN Classic Mono Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477096#477096 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:04:15 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: RE: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? Bud Does this apply even at the upper altitude range ....say 13k or 15k? Will On Jan 4, 2018 22:19, "Bud Yerly" wrote: Yep Graham, Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic pressure is =C2=BD Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actuall y you have calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys got all hung up on this and confused everyone. Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. TAS is important (actually Mach number) as the skin heats up due to friction which is a different ball of wax. I was always a slow speed aero guy to match my mind. Regards, Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Windo ws 10 ------------------------------ *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Pete *Sent:* Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:49:37 PM *To:* europa-list@matronics.com *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA? Thanks again! Pete On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, < ivanshaw@btinternet.com> wrote: All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just taken to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge we have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. Ivan ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:41:04 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: In flight facilities From: "graeme bird" Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa? I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast and a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose clothing and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift around. Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process. I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-) -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:13 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: In flight facilities From: david park Max 2 1/2 hour legs!!! G-LDVO Dave Park > On 5 Jan 2018, at 21:40, graeme bird wrote: > > > Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa? > I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast and a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose clothing and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift around. > Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process. > I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-) > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3 > 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:27 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: In flight facilities Graeme, This doctor uses a bottle, which fits nicely in thegap under the high support. You really ned two hands for it, so ideally you have an autopilot to hold the fort whilst you do the business. I have only had two disturbing incidents over the years: Quite a lot of years ago I was flying solo out to Prague, and approaching the Czech border I had noticed that there was nothing but dense forest all the way to the distant horizon, and tought that would not be a good place for the engine to go quiet. Possibly the thought was enough to tense the bladder, so out came the bottle. Having completed the manoeuvre I looked at the panel and found everything electrical was dead! The engine being a 914 was relying on electricity to run its two fuel pimps, which induced a bit of urgrncy in may emergency checks. Fortunately I started in the right place and found that the toggle switches for master & alternator were both off, having been snared by my trouser bottom when I lifted my leg to replace the bottle. At the time I thought this was a very lucky escape and felt obliged to report the incident on this forum, only to be told by Andy Draper that if I had wired things properly it wouldn't stop anyway, as the pump is supplied by the alternator upstream of alternator switch. The other incident was slightly more embarrassing! I was on a Dawn to Dusk Challenge flight down in S France with a long range tank and we were at the end of a long leg. My mate was flying whilst I made use of the facilities and in mid flow the engine coughed and stopped. Instantly and in a slightly tense voice came, "You have control!" Not good timing! (The engine had stopped because we had run the main tank dry and for the first time ever, the long range tank had not auto siphoned). Many of my gliding friends did have funnels connected to a tube, but they ended up with dried out uric acid crystals under the fuselage (which would not be good for the mono tail wheel & spring!) but again even for 7 or 8 hour flights I found a bottle adequate Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2018-01-05 21:40, graeme bird wrote: > > Does anyone nip down the back and use the little boys room in their Europa? > I was looking to see what the glider pilots do; external catheter, Coloplast and a bag or bottle. Or maybe just a fabric conditioner bottle and some loose clothing and Y fronts. Maybe a tube and a somewhere to vent it so as not to corrode anything. The low seat and angle wont help and the lack of height to shift around. > Should be able to enable (inflate) the auto pilot during the process. > I expect the Doctor puts in a proper catheter :-) > > -------- > Graeme Bird > G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3 > 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total > g(at)gdbmk.co.uk > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109 [1] > Links: ------ [1] http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477109#477109 [2] http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List [3] http://forums.matronics.com [4] http://wiki.matronics.com [5] http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:13:01 PM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: RE: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or =?UTF-8?Q?TAS=3F? I can happily accept that IAS is what matters in relation to flutter at any height, but there is another aspect where I suspect that TAS becomes more relevant. If you set out to do say a rate 1 turn at altitude you are going to have to bank more steeply and pull more g and come closer to a stall than would be the case at the same IAS at lower altitudes. In most circumstances that wouldn't matter too much, but I guess it means that as you go up a mountain valley you need progressively more lateral,space to do an escape 180 turn, (whilst the valley is probably getting progressively narrower) Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2018-01-05 21:03, William Daniell wrote: > Bud > Does this apply even at the upper altitude range ....say 13k or 15k? > Will > > On Jan 4, 2018 22:19, "Bud Yerly" wrote: > > Yep Graham, > > Airplanes only feel air pressure, not the velocity of the molecule alone. Dynamic pressure is Density times Velocity Squared or IAS (actually you have calibrated then equivalent) is what the airplane feels. Those RV guys got all hung up on this and confused everyone. > > Bottom line, what you read on the airspeed indicator counts. TAS is important (actually Mach number) as the skin heats up due to friction which is a different ball of wax. I was always a slow speed aero guy to match my mind. > > Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > Sent from Mail [1] for Windows 10 > > ------------------------- > > FROM: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Pete > SENT: Thursday, January 4, 2018 5:49:37 PM > > TO: europa-list@matronics.com > SUBJECT: Re: Europa-List: Are Vne and Va IAS or TAS? > > Hi Ivan, just to confirm, Vd IAS @8000ft DA? > > Thanks again! > Pete > > On Jan 4, 2018, at 5:21 PM, wrote: > > All our company aircraft were tested to Vd, 10% over Vne. And not just taken to the speed but then tested [short stick and rudder raps] to see if any flutter mode could be excited at Vd. I have performed these tests at/up to 8000ft . We have never experienced any flutter mode. I also tested the tail plane underbalanced and over balanced with the same results. To my knowledge we have not had any reported flutter incidence on the entire fleet. As you mentioned Pete did exceed Vd on a few occasions. > > Ivan Links: ------ [1] https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.