Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:58 AM - Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (John Wighton)
2. 01:57 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
3. 03:31 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (William Daniell)
4. 03:40 AM - Re: Heated pitot (Nigel Graham)
5. 04:05 AM - 25th Anniversary celebrations (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 04:09 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (GRAHAM SINGLETON)
7. 07:22 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (Bud Yerly)
8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (Bud Yerly)
9. 09:09 AM - Re: Heated pitot (graeme bird)
10. 02:05 PM - Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (n7188u)
11. 02:11 PM - Re: Amount of Redux needed at each stage (n7188u)
12. 02:26 PM - Re: Back up engine instruments (William Daniell)
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Subject: | Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage |
As per David Joyce's response, this area of the fuselage is load bearing and is
fairly highly stressed for symmetric and asymmetric lifting loads (from the empennage).
A large hole with a cover will likely pass load via the flange/fasteners
- this is not good practice. Without the cover the corner stresses will
be very high, potentially leading to damage. The aircraft design philosophy
for damage tolerance is 'no growth', requiring there to be sufficient strength
for inherent damages (incurred during factory build and by individual users completion
processes, plus in-service accumulation of damage) - so as not to compromise
the original MS/RF calculated.
The two 'standard' access holes are small for a reason.
I continue to progress the loads and stressing work on the Europa, this is being
done as a R&D side project in my business. The aim is to fully understand the
structural margins that exist in the XS structure and, if possible, show a
modest MAUW increase (possibly aligned with the US commonly used MTOW). The project
is being conducted as per a clean sheet design. I intend to write some
articles for the Club Mag.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477565#477565
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Subject: | Re: Back up engine instruments |
William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand
rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine
monitoring. I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a
tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS
controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm
readout you could break your engine if you hit an unlucky set of
circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coolant temp can spoil
your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is worth - (which
is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit accident rates
are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with the
Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the
one produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and
importantly make a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow
and weighs not a lot.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote:
> Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
>
> What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
>
> My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't
need Rpm.
>
> However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate.
And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.
>
> Will
>
> (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric
sensor?)
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Subject: | Re: Back up engine instruments |
Yes the levil is a flying instrument...
As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma.
EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round
gauges....say Rpm, map and oil temp
OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours. In
this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon because of
engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd. This will give
me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include in the
initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow. Also change cb for blade
fuses and so on. But I am loath to fix something which is essentially
working pretty well......
The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are
not compatible. The rotax sensors are common obviously. It seems that
mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a huge thing to
run a tube into the panel. Likewise the levil will display GRT ems but not
dynon which is annoying. So what you end up with is double sensors and
double wiring.....
Will
On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
> William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand
> rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring.
> I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil
> pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not
> infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break
> your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil
> pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by
> LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you
> consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified
> aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would
> recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display
> pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from
> the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot.
>
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
>
> On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote:
>
> Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
>
> What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
>
> My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I
> don't need Rpm.
>
> However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual
> wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.
>
> Will
>
> (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon
> electric sensor?)
>
>
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Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
davidjoyce(at)doctors.org wrote:
> A year or so ago I remember reading someone's account of designing his own heated
pitot tube using only v. modest amounts of electricity. I thought I had carefully
filed the article but cannot find it. Does anyone have the details or
know what progress has been made?
> Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
David, Attached is the article I think you're referring to.
Nigel
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477568#477568
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/heated_pitot_design_967.pdf
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Subject: | 25th Anniversary celebrations |
Most of you will know that the club is celebrating 2018 as the 25th
anniversary of the Europa (the 1st production model flew in 1993). We
are planning to arrange special events in the UK, France, Holland
Scandinavia and the US. We have just confirmed that the UK event will
consist of a Fly in, BBQ, AGM and Dinner at Turweston Airfield, EGBT on
23 June 2018, so we ask all those who might fly in to this to put the
date in their diaries. We will plan to circulate full details to all
members by the end of February, together with details of the events in
other countries.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ for The Europa Club
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Subject: | Re: Back up engine instruments |
Williamthat assumes a lot of things don't matter, oil pressure? Fuel=C2-p
ressure?Graham
On Thursday, 25 January 2018, 11:32, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport
@gmail.com> wrote:
Yes the levil is a flying instrument...
As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma.
EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round gau
ges....say Rpm, map and oil temp
OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours.=C2-
=C2-In this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon becau
se of engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd.=C2- Thi
s will give me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include
in the initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow.=C2- Also change cb
for blade fuses and so on.=C2- But I am loath to fix something which is
essentially working pretty well......
The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are n
ot compatible.=C2- The rotax sensors are common obviously.=C2- =C2-It
seems that mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a h
uge thing to run a tube into the panel.=C2- Likewise=C2-the levil will
display GRT ems but not dynon which is annoying.=C2- So what you end up w
ith is double sensors and double wiring.....
Will
On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightl
y it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I wou
ld say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure
gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if
your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hi
t an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coola
nt temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is w
orth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit acc
ident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with t
he Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the o
ne produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly m
ake a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not
a lot.Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ=C2-=C2-On 2018-01-25 03:32, William D
aniell wrote:
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.=C2
-What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?=C2-
My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I do
n't need Rpm.=C2-=C2-=C2-However I do need MAP to avoid overboost giv
en that I have a manual wastegate.=C2- And I figure on an oil temp gauge.
=C2- And that's it.=C2-Will=C2-(By the way does anyone know of a map
gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2-
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Subject: | Back up engine instruments |
Will,
The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that infor
mation. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it is anoth
er object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work properly as a
ny AHARS.
I won=92t get any more into who is better than who. None of them are bulle
t proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and lo
ok at what has always worked.
Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
My thoughts only:
First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I neve
r install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.
2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS. That=92s radio, transponder,
ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter.
Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own?
3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.
4. Work with Dynon on a patch.
Been there, done that in the past.
Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the ob
vious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acce
ptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item inp
ut relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon believ
es their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes
blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude backup was
installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup.
You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monito
rs, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I=92ve done both. N
ot fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.
I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not buy
an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are ven
ted to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that
mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised
the purchase).
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Window
s 10
From: William Daniell<mailto:wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments
Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I do
n't need Rpm.
However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastega
te. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.
Will
(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon elect
ric sensor?)
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Subject: | Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage |
John,
I appreciate the time and expense for your service to the Europa community.
In the States, I have used a 6 inch access hole in the rear fuselage for ye
ars. It is using a reverse of the flange layup in chapter 23 which ties th
e two skins together with a flox corner then 4 plies of bid on the inside.
One can use the hole cutout for the cover in this method, by reinforcing t
he edge with a fill of flox to stabilize the skin and support the screws.
Of course I use a 4 ply inner skin reinforcement of 8 oz bid and a tie betw
een the inner and outer skin as Flight Crafters initially did. (Bob used a
common sense approach used by Rutan that ties the skins together at the ho
le perimeter and add a flange of the same number of plies as used in the sa
ndwich in that area plus two for nutplate attachments if required.) These
are the techniques used in the Eze, Quickie and by Ken Rand in the KR clams
hell wings skins.) No problem with the flow of stress around the hole in a
ny of these aircraft either.
I did calculations on it years ago. My calculations were simply based on t
he 45 ply orientation with a 2 inch overlap on the inner skin. I worked up
the vertical (tail plane) force on a round cylinder of 1.5 foot diameter
with a six inch hole. I just evaluated the shear loads (as all the strands
are at a 45 back there and very light glass). I use 4 AN screws on the c
over/flange and found the load to be acceptable with over a safety margin o
f two provided there were at least 4 layers to support the countersunk nutp
late rivets. Many years of mild aerobatics and flying at 1370 pounds doing
advanced handling with no cracks wrinkles or problems after 10 years and 3
00 hours in my old Classic. This sized hole has been put in about 16 aircr
aft without incident using this method. It only opens the hole from 5 inch
to 6 so a man can get an arm in and ties the inner skin to the outer. For
normal flight I fly at 1450 lbs. nearly all the time as the guys I fly are
not the 170 pound FAA specimens. Again, no problem. (Also fly XC with th
e wife at 1450 pounds of mandatory wifely needed items)
I am very sorry that all that was on an old computer that I can no longer f
ind the file with the calculations. I used the shear load of a cylinder us
ing an example from =93Aircraft Structures=94 (Perry I think) used by Boein
g. They have a very good metal structure analysis of monocoque tube struct
ure, then applied the stress sandwich load of Michael Niu who wrote Composi
te Airframe Structures. Assuming the tailplane load at 1750 pounds and the
hole at about the 11 O,clock position. Enlarging the hole to a size that
is appropriate for a normal mans arm can be done without need for a stringe
r and rib in that area. Again, I am just an aero guy and not a structural
guy. I found the exercise to be challenging using only the Rutan documenta
tion, but I was introduced to Niu back in the late 90=92s and he has a grea
t analytical book on molding and the use of fasteners in composite material
as well as and structural repairs and how the stresses flow around access
holes and damage. Pretty neat for the early 90s.
Keep us posted on your results. Todays structural analysis programs are aw
esome and I envy you having access to such wonderful computing aids.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Window
s 10
From: John Wighton<mailto:john@wighton.net>
Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:02 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage
As per David Joyce's response, this area of the fuselage is load bearing an
d is fairly highly stressed for symmetric and asymmetric lifting loads (fro
m the empennage). A large hole with a cover will likely pass load via the
flange/fasteners - this is not good practice. Without the cover the corner
stresses will be very high, potentially leading to damage. The aircraft de
sign philosophy for damage tolerance is 'no growth', requiring there to be
sufficient strength for inherent damages (incurred during factory build and
by individual users completion processes, plus in-service accumulation of
damage) - so as not to compromise the original MS/RF calculated.
The two 'standard' access holes are small for a reason.
I continue to progress the loads and stressing work on the Europa, this is
being done as a R&D side project in my business. The aim is to fully under
stand the structural margins that exist in the XS structure and, if possibl
e, show a modest MAUW increase (possibly aligned with the US commonly used
MTOW). The project is being conducted as per a clean sheet design. I inten
d to write some articles for the Club Mag.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
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Subject: | Re: Heated pitot |
I have a design based on the standard tube. It's proportional with a max of 1.6
amps. I put the mod 2 form in and made a prototype. Laa said I'd need to prove
that it didn't affect the airspeed readings etc. It uses a nichrome wire wound
on kapton sleeved in glass fibre needs 4 wires to the control circuit ( under
pilot seat)
--------
Graeme Bird
G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis
AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus,
SmartA3
325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total
g(at)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
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Subject: | Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage |
thanks to all for the replies. I particularly enjoy the technical ones (I'm an
engineer and enjoy the details).
However, the goal of this posting has been achieved in that I now know this is
not a mod that is commonly used or documented (unless I hear otherwise). I know
I will have to do something about it.
One option is to close the hole in a typical repair fashion. The other is to create
a stressed cover to transfer bending and torsion loads to appropriate flanges
in the fuselage (with enough thickness to allow proper bearing loads on MS24694
structural screws).
I'm inclined to do the later.
Best,
Chris
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Subject: | Re: Amount of Redux needed at each stage |
Yesterday I found that the CM bonding manual calls to have a 800 grams of resin
before starting the job (about 3/4 quart). That's what I needed. Too bad they
don't give the same info for the wings and fuselage jobs. I can probably estimate
it based on surface area.
Regards,
Chris
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Subject: | Re: Back up engine instruments |
Bud thanks
Dang! it was indeed my plan to run two instruments off the same sender.
The issue was the uncommanded reboot on flight two weekends ago. The unit
performed as normal last weekend when I flew so it is working. In fact
this makes it more difficult because intermittent faults are harder to
track down.
Anyway I have sent my diagnostic file to Dynon and am waiting for a
response. I went through the normal trouble shooting with a contact who
has the same set and is also a software engineer. No anomalies found.
And ensured that the software is the same version.
So levil is the back up flight instrument.
The other option is the SkyView assist option. This would I think permit
the EMS to send data to a phone without the pfd...but I need more info.
Will
William Daniell
LONGPORT
+57 310 295 0744
On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
> Will,
>
> The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that
> information. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it i
s
> another object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work proper
ly
> as any AHARS.
>
>
> I won=99t get any more into who is better than who. None of them a
re bullet
> proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and lo
ok
> at what has always worked.
>
>
> Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet?
>
> My thoughts only:
>
> First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I
> never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in.
>
>
> 2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS. That=99s radio, tran
sponder,
> ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter.
>
> Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own?
>
>
> 3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found.
>
>
> 4. Work with Dynon on a patch.
>
>
> Been there, done that in the past.
>
>
> Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the
> obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work
> acceptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 it
em
> input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon
> believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots
> or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude
> backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup.
>
>
> You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine
> monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I=99ve
done
> both. Not fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T.
>
>
> I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not
> buy an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges ar
e
> vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made
> that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce
> advised the purchase).
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
> *From: *William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM
> *To: *europa-list@matronics.com
> *Subject: *Europa-List: Back up engine instruments
>
>
> Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.
>
>
> What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?
>
>
> My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I
> don't need Rpm.
>
>
> However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual
> wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it.
>
>
> Will
>
>
> (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon
> electric sensor?)
>
>
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