---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 01/25/18: 12 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:58 AM - Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (John Wighton) 2. 01:57 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 3. 03:31 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (William Daniell) 4. 03:40 AM - Re: Heated pitot (Nigel Graham) 5. 04:05 AM - 25th Anniversary celebrations (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 04:09 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (GRAHAM SINGLETON) 7. 07:22 AM - Re: Back up engine instruments (Bud Yerly) 8. 08:39 AM - Re: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (Bud Yerly) 9. 09:09 AM - Re: Heated pitot (graeme bird) 10. 02:05 PM - Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage (n7188u) 11. 02:11 PM - Re: Amount of Redux needed at each stage (n7188u) 12. 02:26 PM - Re: Back up engine instruments (William Daniell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:58:59 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage From: "John Wighton" As per David Joyce's response, this area of the fuselage is load bearing and is fairly highly stressed for symmetric and asymmetric lifting loads (from the empennage). A large hole with a cover will likely pass load via the flange/fasteners - this is not good practice. Without the cover the corner stresses will be very high, potentially leading to damage. The aircraft design philosophy for damage tolerance is 'no growth', requiring there to be sufficient strength for inherent damages (incurred during factory build and by individual users completion processes, plus in-service accumulation of damage) - so as not to compromise the original MS/RF calculated. The two 'standard' access holes are small for a reason. I continue to progress the loads and stressing work on the Europa, this is being done as a R&D side project in my business. The aim is to fully understand the structural margins that exist in the XS structure and, if possible, show a modest MAUW increase (possibly aligned with the US commonly used MTOW). The project is being conducted as per a clean sheet design. I intend to write some articles for the Club Mag. -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477565#477565 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:50 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote: > Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil. > > What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments? > > My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I don't need Rpm. > > However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it. > > Will > > (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?) ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:31:36 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments Yes the levil is a flying instrument... As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma. EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round gauges....say Rpm, map and oil temp OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours. In this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon because of engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd. This will give me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include in the initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow. Also change cb for blade fuses and so on. But I am loath to fix something which is essentially working pretty well...... The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are not compatible. The rotax sensors are common obviously. It seems that mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a huge thing to run a tube into the panel. Likewise the levil will display GRT ems but not dynon which is annoying. So what you end up with is double sensors and double wiring..... Will On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, wrote: > William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand > rightly it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. > I would say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil > pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not > infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break > your engine if you hit an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil > pressure or high coolant temp can spoil your day big time. All required by > LAA for what that is worth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you > consider that UK permit accident rates are much the same as certified > aircraft and compare that with the Experimental situation.) I would > recommend a small modern EMS like the one produced by MGL. It will display > pretty much evrything and importantly make a fuss if anything departs from > the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot. > > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > > On 2018-01-25 03:32, William Daniell wrote: > > Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil. > > What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments? > > My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I > don't need Rpm. > > However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual > wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it. > > Will > > (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon > electric sensor?) > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:40:11 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Heated pitot From: "Nigel Graham" davidjoyce(at)doctors.org wrote: > A year or so ago I remember reading someone's account of designing his own heated pitot tube using only v. modest amounts of electricity. I thought I had carefully filed the article but cannot find it. Does anyone have the details or know what progress has been made? > Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ David, Attached is the article I think you're referring to. Nigel Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477568#477568 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/heated_pitot_design_967.pdf ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 04:05:37 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Europa-List: 25th Anniversary celebrations Most of you will know that the club is celebrating 2018 as the 25th anniversary of the Europa (the 1st production model flew in 1993). We are planning to arrange special events in the UK, France, Holland Scandinavia and the US. We have just confirmed that the UK event will consist of a Fly in, BBQ, AGM and Dinner at Turweston Airfield, EGBT on 23 June 2018, so we ask all those who might fly in to this to put the date in their diaries. We will plan to circulate full details to all members by the end of February, together with details of the events in other countries. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ for The Europa Club ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:09:05 AM PST US From: GRAHAM SINGLETON Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments Williamthat assumes a lot of things don't matter, oil pressure? Fuel=C2-p ressure?Graham On Thursday, 25 January 2018, 11:32, William Daniell wrote: Yes the levil is a flying instrument... As far as the engine goes I'm faced with a dilemma. EITHER I go for a patch solution ....the absolute minimum back up round gau ges....say Rpm, map and oil temp OR I rebuild my panel based on lessons learned in the first 50 hours.=C2- =C2-In this case I would include a dynon EIS like the D10....dynon becau se of engine probe compatibility and it frees up space on my pfd.=C2- Thi s will give me the opportunity to include the inputs that I didn't include in the initial build like fuel quantity and fuel flow.=C2- Also change cb for blade fuses and so on.=C2- But I am loath to fix something which is essentially working pretty well...... The annoying thing with much of this kit is that it seems the sensors are n ot compatible.=C2- The rotax sensors are common obviously.=C2- =C2-It seems that mgl kit won't work with dynon map sensor....albeit it's not a h uge thing to run a tube into the panel.=C2- Likewise=C2-the levil will display GRT ems but not dynon which is annoying.=C2- So what you end up w ith is double sensors and double wiring..... Will On Jan 25, 2018 05:00, wrote: William, The i Levil 3 looks a great bit of kit, but if I understand rightl y it is providing AH/Nav/GPS/ADSB functions and no engine monitoring. I wou ld say you are pushing your luck flying without a tachometer, oil pressure gauge and CHT/coolant temp gauge. CS controllers are not infallible and if your Airmaster one has no rpm readout you could break your engine if you hi t an unlucky set of circumstances. Similarly low oil pressure or high coola nt temp can spoil your day big time. All required by LAA for what that is w orth - (which is actually quite a lot, when you consider that UK permit acc ident rates are much the same as certified aircraft and compare that with t he Experimental situation.) I would recommend a small modern EMS like the o ne produced by MGL. It will display pretty much evrything and importantly m ake a fuss if anything departs from the straight and narrow and weighs not a lot.Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ=C2-=C2-On 2018-01-25 03:32, William D aniell wrote: Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil.=C2 -What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments?=C2- My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I do n't need Rpm.=C2-=C2-=C2-However I do need MAP to avoid overboost giv en that I have a manual wastegate.=C2- And I figure on an oil temp gauge. =C2- And that's it.=C2-Will=C2-(By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon electric sensor?)=C2-=C2-=C2-=C2- ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 07:22:07 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments Will, The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that infor mation. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it is anoth er object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work properly as a ny AHARS. I won=92t get any more into who is better than who. None of them are bulle t proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and lo ok at what has always worked. Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet? My thoughts only: First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I neve r install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in. 2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS. That=92s radio, transponder, ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter. Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own? 3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found. 4. Work with Dynon on a patch. Been there, done that in the past. Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the ob vious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work acce ptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 item inp ut relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon believ es their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup. You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine monito rs, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I=92ve done both. N ot fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T. I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not buy an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges are ven ted to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce advised the purchase). Best Regards, Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Window s 10 From: William Daniell Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM Subject: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil. What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments? My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I do n't need Rpm. However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual wastega te. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it. Will (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon elect ric sensor?) ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 08:39:30 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage John, I appreciate the time and expense for your service to the Europa community. In the States, I have used a 6 inch access hole in the rear fuselage for ye ars. It is using a reverse of the flange layup in chapter 23 which ties th e two skins together with a flox corner then 4 plies of bid on the inside. One can use the hole cutout for the cover in this method, by reinforcing t he edge with a fill of flox to stabilize the skin and support the screws. Of course I use a 4 ply inner skin reinforcement of 8 oz bid and a tie betw een the inner and outer skin as Flight Crafters initially did. (Bob used a common sense approach used by Rutan that ties the skins together at the ho le perimeter and add a flange of the same number of plies as used in the sa ndwich in that area plus two for nutplate attachments if required.) These are the techniques used in the Eze, Quickie and by Ken Rand in the KR clams hell wings skins.) No problem with the flow of stress around the hole in a ny of these aircraft either. I did calculations on it years ago. My calculations were simply based on t he 45 ply orientation with a 2 inch overlap on the inner skin. I worked up the vertical (tail plane) force on a round cylinder of 1.5 foot diameter with a six inch hole. I just evaluated the shear loads (as all the strands are at a 45 back there and very light glass). I use 4 AN screws on the c over/flange and found the load to be acceptable with over a safety margin o f two provided there were at least 4 layers to support the countersunk nutp late rivets. Many years of mild aerobatics and flying at 1370 pounds doing advanced handling with no cracks wrinkles or problems after 10 years and 3 00 hours in my old Classic. This sized hole has been put in about 16 aircr aft without incident using this method. It only opens the hole from 5 inch to 6 so a man can get an arm in and ties the inner skin to the outer. For normal flight I fly at 1450 lbs. nearly all the time as the guys I fly are not the 170 pound FAA specimens. Again, no problem. (Also fly XC with th e wife at 1450 pounds of mandatory wifely needed items) I am very sorry that all that was on an old computer that I can no longer f ind the file with the calculations. I used the shear load of a cylinder us ing an example from =93Aircraft Structures=94 (Perry I think) used by Boein g. They have a very good metal structure analysis of monocoque tube struct ure, then applied the stress sandwich load of Michael Niu who wrote Composi te Airframe Structures. Assuming the tailplane load at 1750 pounds and the hole at about the 11 O,clock position. Enlarging the hole to a size that is appropriate for a normal mans arm can be done without need for a stringe r and rib in that area. Again, I am just an aero guy and not a structural guy. I found the exercise to be challenging using only the Rutan documenta tion, but I was introduced to Niu back in the late 90=92s and he has a grea t analytical book on molding and the use of fasteners in composite material as well as and structural repairs and how the stresses flow around access holes and damage. Pretty neat for the early 90s. Keep us posted on your results. Todays structural analysis programs are aw esome and I envy you having access to such wonderful computing aids. Best Regards, Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Window s 10 From: John Wighton Sent: Thursday, January 25, 2018 4:02 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage As per David Joyce's response, this area of the fuselage is load bearing an d is fairly highly stressed for symmetric and asymmetric lifting loads (fro m the empennage). A large hole with a cover will likely pass load via the flange/fasteners - this is not good practice. Without the cover the corner stresses will be very high, potentially leading to damage. The aircraft de sign philosophy for damage tolerance is 'no growth', requiring there to be sufficient strength for inherent damages (incurred during factory build and by individual users completion processes, plus in-service accumulation of damage) - so as not to compromise the original MS/RF calculated. The two 'standard' access holes are small for a reason. I continue to progress the loads and stressing work on the Europa, this is being done as a R&D side project in my business. The aim is to fully under stand the structural margins that exist in the XS structure and, if possibl e, show a modest MAUW increase (possibly aligned with the US commonly used MTOW). The project is being conducted as per a clean sheet design. I inten d to write some articles for the Club Mag. -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: https://eur01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.m atronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D477565%23477565&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc0c5 4960495d44c21bd808d563d25a00%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 36524677458769616&sdata=WOE%2F%2BoSDNEtWAVLzZ3NGCL1LpTBxYwzaoxTAQJTwaTg%3 D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc0c5496 0495d44c21bd808d563d25a00%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6365 24677458769616&sdata=zSDiQx6fsYoiw0MntAEojTrWKuki4vwzyV1VDdMHtZw%3D&reser ved=0 F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc0c54960495d44c21bd808d563d25a 00%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636524677458769616&sdata= vUkO8sedheqGD%2Fl2536qtFUmwgdk%2Fjvz1IojecUgAFY%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwiki.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc0c54960495d44c21bd808d563d25a00 %7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636524677458769616&sdata=ut %2BdgnDTYpqyeS1WuulWtnSveP%2FPBqhPRJpZwrIGJKc%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cc0c54960495d44c21b d808d563d25a00%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636524677458769 616&sdata=Ihqc4g1Z9RfHvQr9aRouWuJnhpvZdomPwcqmSUVz63I%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 09:09:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Heated pitot From: "graeme bird" I have a design based on the standard tube. It's proportional with a max of 1.6 amps. I put the mod 2 form in and made a prototype. Laa said I'd need to prove that it didn't affect the airspeed readings etc. It uses a nichrome wire wound on kapton sleeved in glass fibre needs 4 wires to the control circuit ( under pilot seat) -------- Graeme Bird G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp 3000/3W CS, trutrak Gemini 2 axis AP, PAW, PFLARM core, ads-b out, 8.33khz, mode S, FP-5, Aera500, SD on Nexus, SmartA3 325 hours & 6 years on the Mono, 930 total g(at)gdbmk.co.uk Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477573#477573 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 02:05:09 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Tank access hole at bottom of fuselage From: "n7188u" thanks to all for the replies. I particularly enjoy the technical ones (I'm an engineer and enjoy the details). However, the goal of this posting has been achieved in that I now know this is not a mod that is commonly used or documented (unless I hear otherwise). I know I will have to do something about it. One option is to close the hole in a typical repair fashion. The other is to create a stressed cover to transfer bending and torsion loads to appropriate flanges in the fuselage (with enough thickness to allow proper bearing loads on MS24694 structural screws). I'm inclined to do the later. Best, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477579#477579 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:11:34 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Amount of Redux needed at each stage From: "n7188u" Yesterday I found that the CM bonding manual calls to have a 800 grams of resin before starting the job (about 3/4 quart). That's what I needed. Too bad they don't give the same info for the wings and fuselage jobs. I can probably estimate it based on surface area. Regards, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=477580#477580 ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:26:32 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Back up engine instruments Bud thanks Dang! it was indeed my plan to run two instruments off the same sender. The issue was the uncommanded reboot on flight two weekends ago. The unit performed as normal last weekend when I flew so it is working. In fact this makes it more difficult because intermittent faults are harder to track down. Anyway I have sent my diagnostic file to Dynon and am waiting for a response. I went through the normal trouble shooting with a contact who has the same set and is also a software engineer. No anomalies found. And ensured that the software is the same version. So levil is the back up flight instrument. The other option is the SkyView assist option. This would I think permit the EMS to send data to a phone without the pfd...but I need more info. Will William Daniell LONGPORT +57 310 295 0744 On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 10:21 AM, Bud Yerly wrote: > Will, > > The iLevil to date only works with Grand Rapids EIS and displays that > information. I do not believe they interface with Dynon. Of course it i s > another object to install. It has to be level and aligned to work proper ly > as any AHARS. > > > I won=99t get any more into who is better than who. None of them a re bullet > proof, but I always look beyond the window dressing in advertising and lo ok > at what has always worked. > > > Have you troubleshot your Skyview yet? > > My thoughts only: > > First update the Dynon. Laptop and serial analog plug-in required. I > never install a Dynon without the engine and EFIS update plugs wired in. > > > 2. Disconnect all other items from the EFIS. That=99s radio, tran sponder, > ADS-B, autopilot, AOA, and all that clutter. > > Does it work as an EFIS alone? Does the Engine monitor work on its own? > > > 3. Turn on each interface component until an instability is found. > > > 4. Work with Dynon on a patch. > > > Been there, done that in the past. > > > Back up instruments. Very few all in one engine monitors other than the > obvious (Dynon EMS, GRT EIS, MGL, AvMap, and many others) which all work > acceptably. I have used the Dynon EMS as a backup with a hand made 20 it em > input relay switch because of the Dynon Skyview/FD 180 mistrust. Dynon > believes their EMS in the Skyview is fail safe, but if the system reboots > or goes blank, a backup was necessary in my opinion. (Also a attitude > backup was installed.) Dynon only believes in a PFD backup. > > > You cannot hook any resistance engine sensors to two separate engine > monitors, you must switch the input or add a second sensor. I=99ve done > both. Not fun either way. Manifold pressure is easily split with a T. > > > I have always used a UMA MP gauge in a backup or primary gauge. Do not > buy an automotive boost gauge. These auto boost type or vacuum gauges ar e > vented to the atmosphere, get a MP gauge that is sealed or absolute (made > that mistake when I purchases a cheap Mitchel MP gauge, and A/C Spruce > advised the purchase). > > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > *From: *William Daniell > *Sent: *Wednesday, January 24, 2018 10:35 PM > *To: *europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject: *Europa-List: Back up engine instruments > > > Following the unbidden rebooting of my SkyView I have ordered a levil. > > > What is the group think on the minimum back up engine instruments? > > > My thinking is that the airmaster should keep the Rpm under control so I > don't need Rpm. > > > However I do need MAP to avoid overboost given that I have a manual > wastegate. And I figure on an oil temp gauge. And that's it. > > > Will > > > (By the way does anyone know of a map gauge that works with the dynon > electric sensor?) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.