---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 09/30/18: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 05:19 AM - Vertical play at stabilator tips (n7188u) 2. 08:35 AM - Re: Noseleg bungee/spring replacement (AirEupora) 3. 12:05 PM - Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips (Tim Ward) 4. 01:09 PM - Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips (JonathanMilbank) 5. 03:37 PM - Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips (n7188u) 6. 03:53 PM - Re: Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips (Bud Yerly) 7. 04:40 PM - Re: Re: Noseleg bungee/spring replacement (Bud Yerly) 8. 05:32 PM - Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips (Kingsley Hurst) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Vertical play at stabilator tips From: "n7188u" Dear Forum Members, I just finished getting everything ready to bond the fuselage top. I spent the last two weeks tweaking the clecoing of the fuselage top (and other nifty simple tricks which I can share) to ensure I had nearly zero friction in the stab torque tube bearings. It is so smooth that now I am able to feel vertical play when I move the stab tip vertically. The play, at the TP11 bearing, is in the order of 0.004 to 0.005 inches. Doesn't sound like much but at the tip of the stab is quite noticeable. This play doesn't make me happy (new plane, sloppy already) but before I start tearing things apart (which I am becoming quite adept at this point) I need to know: 1.- Is there a specification for maximum play between the TP11 bearing and TP12 drive plate? 2.- Anyone knows the tolerances for the diameters of these components (TP11 ID and TP12 OD) so that I can measure them? 3.- Is this play common in airplanes where the builder was able to achieve nearly perfect alignment of these components? I contacted Europa (first time since I started building) to see what they tell me. Regards, Chris Martin Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483466#483466 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:47 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Noseleg bungee/spring replacement From: "AirEupora" During my build I installed a half hose to the top and bottom area to hold the spring in place and Tye wrapped it in place. It has worked for the last seven years and 190 hours. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483471#483471 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/wheel_well_bulkhead_fittings_106.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:05:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vertical play at stabilator tips From: Tim Ward Hi Chris, Look at Mod 62 and 73 on: http://www.europa-aircraft.com/updates/mods.php Cheers, Tim Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street, Fendalton, Christchurch, 8052 New Zealand ward.t@xtra.co.nz Mob +64 210640221 > On 1/10/2018, at 1:18 AM, n7188u wrote: > > > Dear Forum Members, > > I just finished getting everything ready to bond the fuselage top. I spent the last two weeks tweaking the clecoing of the fuselage top (and other nif ty simple tricks which I can share) to ensure I had nearly zero friction in t he stab torque tube bearings. It is so smooth that now I am able to feel ver tical play when I move the stab tip vertically. The play, at the TP11 bearin g, is in the order of 0.004 to 0.005 inches. Doesn't sound like much but at t he tip of the stab is quite noticeable. This play doesn't make me happy (new plane, sloppy already) but before I start tearing things apart (which I am b ecoming quite adept at this point) I need to know: > > 1.- Is there a specification for maximum play between the TP11 bearing and TP12 drive plate? > 2.- Anyone knows the tolerances for the diameters of these components (TP1 1 ID and TP12 OD) so that I can measure them? > 3.- Is this play common in airplanes where the builder was able to achieve nearly perfect alignment of these components? > > I contacted Europa (first time since I started building) to see what they t ell me. > > Regards, > Chris Martin > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483466#483466 > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:09:07 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips From: "JonathanMilbank" At the risk of being shot down in flames (yet again), this is a subject which is quite dear to my heart. I've asked a few people over the years the same question and never been given a definitive answer. I doubt very much that there's anyone at Europa who could either. What I do know is that the late Nev Eyre replaced the bronze bushes for at least one of his customers, but seemingly only because they wanted it done and not because he thought it was really necessary. That's the impression he gave me anyway. Either you belong to the school of opinion that even slight play is unacceptable, or you take the pragmatic view of considering whether the play is likely to cause a problem. I fall in with the latter and have no reason to believe that even a mm of play in the bush would cause flutter or any other undesirable effect. One of my bushes has about .015" of movement and the other is probably double that. The airframe has around 1200 hours and I've been aware of play for several years. In order to keep those bushes lubricated, I have a plastic syringe drilled out to accept a very thin plastic tube of the type which inserts into the nozzle of an ACF 50 spray can. I load the syringe with a little clean engine oil and using a torch, I insert the tube through the narrow gap at the root of each tail plane. The oil flows around and down the metal sleeve which passes through each bush and then wicks sideways into the gap. This I do every few flying hours and it avoids the need to unpin and slide each tail plane sideways. For the past couple of years there has been no discernible increase in wear of the bushes. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483481#483481 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:37:12 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips From: "n7188u" Thanks so much both Tim and Jonathan for the replies. I am glued to the computer awaiting feedback :) . Tim: maybe I was not clear but the issue is with play between the bronze (or brass) bushings and the torque tube. I do have the clamp mod so the torsion between the two tailplanes is free of slop. Also have the 3/8 pins plus the mod 10672 (glass tube). The elongated pip-pin hole will be implemented before finishing the plane. Jonathan, your comment about the play makes me feel a little better. What is hard for an isolated builder like me is that I have no reference as to what is OK or not. No play is probably unrealistic in a system like this that is impossible to adjust or replace bushings easily. I also imagine that, as hard as Europa may try, achieving tight tolerances on that machined and welded TP12 drive plate tube is probably very difficult. and if they did make tolerances tight, I am not sure you could assemble it as the manual tells you to do it and not end up with binding in the system. I love my Europa, but I do tell my friends this is like building a very precise blob of flexible epoxy/glass. You can only be so precise! My opinion. My bushings are indeed much better than 0.015". Was that at the bushing itself or the tip of the stabilator? My 0.005" is at the bushing. I calculated the tip would move about 0.020" with that play at the bushing but its hard to measure at the tip since everything moves when you put some force to it. Anyway, please keep the advise coming. I did ask Europa to see what they say. Ultimately, I would love to know what the tolerances for these components are when they are manufactured. That way I could measure and decide to go or not go. Everything in life must have tolerances and some amount of design factor to account for wear. Just a story regarding opinions: I had an older Mooney that had slop in the elevator trim system (the trim moves the entire tail in the Mooney, really, the whole tail including the vertical fin). Some people would scream at me that the play was unacceptable even though it meet the maintenance manual criteria. I flew the plane like that for 13 years with no issue. The only thing that makes it hard now is that the top is not bonded yet so it would be relatively easy to replace the bushing. But if I don't have to I prefer to save myself unnecessary work. Heck, I don't even know if the new bushing would be any better because I don't know the tolerances or limits. Best Regards, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=483482#483482 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 03:53:46 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips Jon, I have replaced these where the client felt they were too stiff and either put polishing compound on them or actually machined them larger. As far as slop, a slight clunk of the stab up and down, for and aft won=92t hurt anything especially if it a small .005 inch play. Force in some grease rather than oil if you can=92t stand the noise. Pack the grease in using your fingers and a lot of pressure normally once a year and it will be fine. To replace them just requires disassembly of the tail plane torque tube. ( I hope you made your inspection hole larger.) I have had to pull a couple of them out, an 8 hour day is normal. One had only the sight hole to inspe ct, I put a six inch hole in the back to get my arm in there and patched th e fuselage. It was the only way to stay sane. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations Sent from Mail for Window s 10 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of JonathanMilbank Sent: Sunday, September 30, 2018 4:08:47 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Vertical play at stabilator tips > At the risk of being shot down in flames (yet again), this is a subject whi ch is quite dear to my heart. I've asked a few people over the years the sa me question and never been given a definitive answer. I doubt very much tha t there's anyone at Europa who could either. What I do know is that the lat e Nev Eyre replaced the bronze bushes for at least one of his customers, bu t seemingly only because they wanted it done and not because he thought it was really necessary. That's the impression he gave me anyway. Either you belong to the school of opinion that even slight play is unaccep table, or you take the pragmatic view of considering whether the play is li kely to cause a problem. I fall in with the latter and have no reason to be lieve that even a mm of play in the bush would cause flutter or any other u ndesirable effect. One of my bushes has about .015" of movement and the oth er is probably double that. The airframe has around 1200 hours and I've bee n aware of play for several years. In order to keep those bushes lubricated, I have a plastic syringe drilled out to accept a very thin plastic tube of the type which inserts into the n ozzle of an ACF 50 spray can. I load the syringe with a little clean engine oil and using a torch, I insert the tube through the narrow gap at the roo t of each tail plane. The oil flows around and down the metal sleeve which passes through each bush and then wicks sideways into the gap. This I do every few flying hours and it avoids the need to unpin and slide each tail plane sideways. For the past couple of years there has been no di scernible increase in wear of the bushes. Read this topic online here: https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.m atronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D483481%23483481&data=02%7C01%7C%7C 2cdd49b7a6654b0af71908d62710ff86%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0 %7C636739351280999107&sdata=dwZcI28X1tMBia2mAZdtdU8a9WEuECUyVX2OQDxQ0 U8%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2cd d49b7a6654b0af71908d62710ff86%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C 636739351280999107&sdata=zSr5iBUMaYcWveSQhk57Z7HIF%2FLHceHghCfFHqIzV1 o%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2cdd49b7a6654b0af71908d627 10ff86%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636739351280999107& sdata=S5lzegyyXHTm464cB5RLH1FkzfJjcb0mY793W%2BumbVY%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwiki.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2cdd49b7a6654b0af71908d62710 ff86%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636739351280999107&sd ata=nfhZimi5Df4q7nTOh574Sx1PE%2BFVuF8f%2FLpH428ZCo8%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7C2cdd49b7a6654b 0af71908d62710ff86%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63673935128 0999107&sdata=yV8rIuqFRV0UTMh9byWzNaYnKSeJmHTd9vfv%2FsNG7zE%3D&re served=0 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:40:35 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Noseleg bungee/spring replacement Well said, The bungee is just fine. Most likely the hopping nose is a bungee too loos e. Also the cable stop has to be adjusted properly to minimize the deflect ion and prevent a prop strike. I too always put a rubber bumper on the actual frame not the stop post. I didn=92t change my bungee out for the springs until about 300 hours. It wa s fine, I just wanted to do it. I really liked having it tight enough that I could put 200 pounds on the fr ont of the engine and not pull it off the peg. Two men of about 360 pounds total sitting on both footwells should stretch it off the stop. I think t he bungee is 12 mm and very tight for the gap between the frame and firewal l. If that space is smaller than 3/8 inch, put on the springs. If the bun gee needs to be changed, I always recommended installing the springs, but i t is heavier and on the nose. It takes me about 1.5 hours to put the sprin gs on and about the same for the bungee. However, those of you who use the metal firewall as on the mono, I feel for you. See my previous postings o n firewalls for the trigear. Tightening the nose gear bungee is in Chapter 29T. Prep the bungee by tyin g a .025 safety wire around the cut end to squeeze it tightly. Remember yo ur scout training on how to whip the end of a rope? Same technique with th e wire. It keeps the end small and tight. I tie the other end off at the bottom, Then thread the wire through the gap and pull the bungee through c arefully. Pull down tightly and use a wood shim to jamb the tight bungee u ntil I can get it back down and around the bottom. Two guys help, one on t op and one on the bottom. The guy on the bottom can pull the bungee easier than the guy on top. For the Mod 71 springs, round the ends of the spring to ease slipping it on . The rest I have pretty completely reviewed in my Mod changes made some y ears ago. I use .016 stainless Reduxed on to the bottom and top spring han gar areas to prevent the spring from chewing into the soft 41 series steel. It stays clean and neat in there, no rust or paint chipping that way. I also hook the spring at the top and hook on to the bottom. If you are wondering how I keep weight off the nose gear, I don=92t=85 I h ave an exhaust clamp and two threaded rods holding the gear hard against th e stop while I do the first spring. Then I knock out all the springs with the help of my hefty assistants stretching the spring. Wear gloves, as the spring will pinch/crush your fingers hard. Have fun, I do. Best Regards, Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Window s 10 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of John Wighton Sent: Saturday, September 29, 2018 3:39:47 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Noseleg bungee/spring replacement As Jonathan says (he is a perfect pilot by the way) , correct landing techn ique goes a long way in preserving the noseleg whatever way it is sprung. I have done nearly 500 hours in trigear Europa and find the nose gear with spring mod very good. Careful technique is required on bumpy ground. My s prings make a fair bit of noise - which can be heard when taxiing. The sti ck has to be held firmly to prevent the mass balance weight from =98d riving=99 the stick which causes longitudinal pitching - which drives the nosegear. This can amplify the apparent nose pitching which some pilo ts attribute solely to the springing of the nosegear. Holding the nose off is necessary and good technique. I see many flat or w heelbarrow landings by ppl and students at my local field - l think there i s less emphasis on avoiding early nosegear ground contact nowadays. Never land a Europa nosegear first. I recommend the spring MOD, perhaps slightly more care is needed to avoid c oupled longitudinal pitching where the nosegear and HT mass balance act in unison. The relatively low maintenance requirements are also a positive fa ctor. When taxiing, even at slow speed on bumping ground, the nose can start to b ob up and down. This can be immediately stopped by slowing down. I also l ock the stick with my knees (either fully back or forward) which avoids the mass balance coupling as described above. -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: https://eur02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.m atronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D483431%23483431&data=02%7C01%7C%7C 40d36e3aa16747c37d1008d625df3f5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0 %7C636738038096860936&sdata=Y7LEYSViB5soYZYW86nnBbjyiIivwMqiy%2FG%2Fn pdygzA%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40d 36e3aa16747c37d1008d625df3f5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C 636738038096860936&sdata=NPHabSa37nmF3FFEd%2BUc7yNZSGnlNawcmlX6oGCOJi 8%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fforums.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40d36e3aa16747c37d1008d625 df3f5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636738038096860936& sdata=tUvq1fXiiIW47XrfjR36GaTeBXDAJOcRSNFQ17TSsGw%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwiki.matronics.com&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40d36e3aa16747c37d1008d625df 3f5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636738038096860936&sd ata=fjzEtp%2BJsnTfRVgGDg9Zg4zAHfflC2hr44BtZFESjRs%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=02%7C01%7C%7C40d36e3aa16747 c37d1008d625df3f5d%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63673803809 6860936&sdata=vg%2FYLuDfvAE7uazBqioY8T1U47YGxxbFABq14oquQwA%3D&re served=0 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:49 PM PST US From: Kingsley Hurst Subject: Re: Europa-List: Vertical play at stabilator tips Chris < It is so smooth that now I am able to feel vertical play when I move the stab tip vertically. I wouldnt be concerned if I were you ..... mine is exactly the same. Congratulate yourself on having the bushes perfectly aligned. If you had no movement at all, it would mean the bushes were not properly aligned and the torque tube would be resting on high spots. The same situation arises with the main wing pin bushes. They are quite a loose fit on the main pins so if the pins are tight, it simply means the bushes are not perfectly aligned. Put the top on and move on mate! 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