---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 12/21/18: 4 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:27 AM - Re: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 12/20/18 (Gary Leinberger) 2. 05:32 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (Simon Liebold) 3. 06:02 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (Peter Zutrauen) 4. 08:10 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Re:_Europa-List_Digest:_7_Msgs_-_12/20/18? () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:27:09 AM PST US From: Gary Leinberger Subject: Europa-List: RE: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 12/20/18 I have a trigear high top and when we (Bud Yerly and I) built mine, we spent nearly two days getting the canoe and top piece aligned. We made our own kit for the high top. We worked off a concrete floor covered with linoleum and made sure that the entire canoe was perfectly square and aligned. The floor was not completely level. Much of the time was building supports and then shimming it to absolute level. This process required a great deal of just looking and dropping plumb lines. Then we bondo-ed all the supports and the landing gear to the floor. I was surprised at the time how long it took to line up. But the end result is a plane flies great - no wandering, very true and hands off when trimmed out. I find it is a better IFR platform than the 1968 Mooney I also fly. The two axis auto pilot helps a lot, especially when ATC decides to change your routing. You can work hands-off while (or whilst for our English friends) changing the Garmin. All of this leads up to making sure when you get to gluing on the top of the canoe, take your time and do it in a place where you can firmly secure the canoe, and have enough space to walk around and look from a distance to get everything exactly correct. A most critical part is getting the horizontal tail-plane piece (can't remember the technical term for the tail-plane support piece that turns with the tailplane) exactly correct and level. This is the most tricky part of the build IMHO, both in terms of positioning and tightness, while avoiding gluing the rotating parts. It also will be a major handhold as you move the plane through your window to a larger space to glue on the top. If moving the canoe without the top I would reinforce the horizontal tail-plane piece after installation to the canoe by running a ratcheting tie-down around the bottom of the canoe and to the ends of the tail-plane. It was amazing to me how gluing these two floppy pieces together made for such a rigid structure. I also reinforced the bottom part of the area around the gear with several layers of fiberglass from under the seats to about two feet behind the gear legs. It added a few pounds but a friend building one didn't, and he ended up with cracks around the gear in the bottom of the canoe. He did have one very hard landing that bent one gear leg. Not sure if my reinforcement really helps or I just haven't had a hard enough landing yet. (Once I learned to land at 48 - 50 rather than 70 or so landings became a piece of cake.) Also, regarding the comment on being careful about breaking the canoe. By that time you are ready to move it, you are talking about some serious weight in the plane. You will probably need a half dozen people to move it safely through the window. It will be very floppy. Have a special support for the rear end of the plane, behind the tail-plane piece. A well designed cradle, made with the movement through the window in mind will be necessary. Since you are building the mono supporting it will be even more critical as you won't have the gear legs for support. If you go with the trigear, the gear legs come off after completing the x braces for the landing gear, although having them and wheels on, if there is room, makes moving it so much easier. (I don't know how people make the conversion from mono to trigear after the top is on - they will probably need major back surgery). Also, have you checked on insurance for a mono. In the states when I went to get insurance in 2012, the first question was "Is it a mono?". They said they wouldn't insure a mono. This may have changed since then. (I don't want to get into an argument about mono versus tri-gear - but you should check.) My only comment is that my trigear is pussycat in crosswinds, handling far greater winds with no sweat than the Mooney. Good luck on your build. It is worth the time and energy. Gary Leinberger Lancaster, Pa. USA High top Trigear, 375 hours ________________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] on behalf of Europa-List Digest Server [europa-list@matronics.com] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2018 2:34 AM Subject: Europa-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 12/20/18 * ================================================= Online Versions of Today's List Digest Archive ================================================= Today's complete Europa-List Digest can also be found in either of the two Web Links listed below. The .html file includes the Digest formatted in HTML for viewing with a web browser and features Hyperlinked Indexes and Message Navigation. The .txt file includes the plain ASCII version of the Europa-List Digest and can be viewed with a generic text editor such as Notepad or with a web browser. HTML Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=html&Chapter 18-12-20&Archive=Europa Text Version: http://www.matronics.com/digest/digestview.php?Style=82701&View=txt&Chapter 18-12-20&Archive=Europa =============================================== EMail Version of Today's List Digest Archive =============================================== ---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 12/20/18: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:35 AM - Re: Europa Club Safety Advice: Cracked U/C Frame (Hitchflight) 2. 12:59 AM - Re: Re: Europa Club Safety Advice: Cracked U/C Frame (Peter Jeffers) 3. 02:28 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (Simon) 4. 07:29 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (Fred Klein) 5. 08:18 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (GTH) 6. 09:04 AM - Re: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? (William Daniell) 7. 09:45 AM - =?utf-8?Q?Re:__Building:_Fitting_the_fuselage_through_the_win?= =?utf-8?Q?dow=3F? () ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:35:38 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Club Safety Advice: Cracked U/C Frame From: "Hitchflight" Hi Rick At this time. We do not have enough information to decide. News on the Europa website and in the Europa Flyer when more emerges. Bob Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486452#486452 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:59:05 AM PST US From: "Peter Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Europa Club Safety Advice: Cracked U/C Frame Hi Rick, Yes I totally agree with your last sentence. The trouble is that at this time we do not know for sure which aircraft these cracks may occur in. Please remember that some Tri gears were Mono's when first flown. To answer another of your questions the offending frame is the same on both mono and trigear. Please therefore carry out the checks as requested and submit your answers to the questionnaire to my email address on The Europa Club web site or magazine. When we have a reasonable no of answers we will then be able to decide which a/c are most at risk so that if the LAA/CAA want to issue any mandatory inspections they will be better informed about which a/c to be targeted. Pete Jeffers (LAA Inspector to the Europa Club) -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Rick Moss Sent: 20 December 2018 06:07 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Europa Club Safety Advice: Cracked U/C Frame Forgive my ignorance, as a non-builder; the link makes no mention of whether this is applicable to mono or trigear, from which I must interpret that it is applicable to both. Am I therefore correct in assuming that the same frame is fitted to both variants? In which case one must assume that the loads on this frame on a mono are vastly higher than they are on a trigear? Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=486451#486451 --- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:28:05 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? From: Simon Hi Gilles, Am 19.12.18 um 21:57 schrieb GTH: > That's plenty of room to move the fuselage through a window. > It all depends of what level the window is. Ground level would be > perfect. Thanks. This sounds encouraging. It is ground level. Sorry, I forgot to mention. > Concerning the tail, do you have enough room inside to move the > fuselage around so as to insert the tail first ? It is not huge on the inside (4,65m x 5,01m). But without cowling it should barely fit. There is a second room that belongs to it (2m x 5.18m) to store smaller parts or the wings etc. The ceiling is at ca. 3.30m. I may be able to store parts underneath it when not working on it. > Or room outside to do the reverse ? Yes, it is a corner room and both windows have enough room on the outside. It's a former train station building. > Of course, you won't install the wheels before getting the fuse > through the window. It's a mono wheel. I could imagine that it could even fit with the main wheel installed. I remeasured the window. It is actually a bit larger than initially thought. 1,40m x 1,40m. > > Why not print a side view of the fuselage at a definite scale and try > it on a plan ? > I've seen many a fuselage getting through much narrower apertures. Good idea. I will try that. I took photos of the room, if anyone wants to take a look: https://photos.app.goo.gl/zpurAR6q4TwX3H8C7 Kind regards, Simon ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:29:00 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? From: Fred Klein A watchword for building the Europa when working on the fuselage is to delay the bonding of the top to the canoe for absolutely as long as possible...thus there is a considerable amount of work which can be done without worrying... and when thats all finished, youll want to trial fit with clecoes, after which you can give it a go thru the window...no harm done. Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 20, 2018, at 2:27 AM, Simon wrote: > > > Hi Gilles, > >> Am 19.12.18 um 21:57 schrieb GTH: >> That's plenty of room to move the fuselage through a window. >> It all depends of what level the window is. Ground level would be >> perfect. > Thanks. This sounds encouraging. It is ground level. Sorry, I forgot to > mention. >> Concerning the tail, do you have enough room inside to move the >> fuselage around so as to insert the tail first ? > It is not huge on the inside (4,65m x 5,01m). But without cowling it > should barely fit. There is a second room that belongs to it (2m x > 5.18m) to store smaller parts or the wings etc. The ceiling is at ca. > 3.30m. I may be able to store parts underneath it when not working on it. >> Or room outside to do the reverse ? > Yes, it is a corner room and both windows have enough room on the > outside. It's a former train station building. >> Of course, you won't install the wheels before getting the fuse >> through the window. > It's a mono wheel. I could imagine that it could even fit with the main > wheel installed. I remeasured the window. It is actually a bit larger > than initially thought. 1,40m x 1,40m. >> >> Why not print a side view of the fuselage at a definite scale and try >> it on a plan ? >> I've seen many a fuselage getting through much narrower apertures. > > Good idea. I will try that. > > I took photos of the room, if anyone wants to take a look: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/zpurAR6q4TwX3H8C7 > > Kind regards, > Simon > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:18:25 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? From: GTH Hi Simon, > It is not huge on the inside (4,65m x 5,01m). But without cowling it > should barely fit. There is a second room that belongs to it (2m x > 5.18m) to store smaller parts or the wings etc. The ceiling is at ca. > 3.30m. I may be able to store parts underneath it when not working on it. Rooms seem most adequate. A 3.30 m ceiling is quite interesting. > It's a mono wheel. I could imagine that it could even fit with the main > wheel installed. Maybe you'll be better off with setting up wheels etc. inside, then removing them to save weight for the delicate maneuver ? > I remeasured the window. It is actually a bit larger > than initially thought. 1,40m x 1,40m. At first thought, the idea would be to turn the fuselage on it's side, then somehow "thread" the fuselage through the aperture : All the best, -- Kind regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:04:07 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? Fred makes a very good point. Make a cradle which holds the bottom half in place from Firewall to tail. My fuse has a slight twist (one end of the tail is 1cm lower than the other) which is the result of not supporting the tail Put absolutely everything in with the top off including all the electrics and the instrument panel. You could probably get the bottom half out easier and then glue the top on somewhere else. Do remember that the canoe is very floppy and can break easily if not supported. Will XS tri 912 Turbo Airmaster Dynon Skyview 100 hours On Thu, Dec 20, 2018, 10:31 Fred Klein > > A watchword for building the Europa when working on the fuselage is to > delay the bonding of the top to the canoe for absolutely as long as > possible...thus there is a considerable amount of work which can be done > without worrying... and when that=99s all finished, you=99ll want to trial fit > with clecoes, after which you can give it a go thru the window...no harm > done. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Dec 20, 2018, at 2:27 AM, Simon wrote: > > > > > > Hi Gilles, > > > >> Am 19.12.18 um 21:57 schrieb GTH: > >> That's plenty of room to move the fuselage through a window. > >> It all depends of what level the window is. Ground level would be > >> perfect. > > Thanks. This sounds encouraging. It is ground level. Sorry, I forgot to > > mention. > >> Concerning the tail, do you have enough room inside to move the > >> fuselage around so as to insert the tail first ? > > It is not huge on the inside (4,65m x 5,01m). But without cowling it > > should barely fit. There is a second room that belongs to it (2m x > > 5.18m) to store smaller parts or the wings etc. The ceiling is at ca. > > 3.30m. I may be able to store parts underneath it when not working on > it. > >> Or room outside to do the reverse ? > > Yes, it is a corner room and both windows have enough room on the > > outside. It's a former train station building. > >> Of course, you won't install the wheels before getting the fuse > >> through the window. > > It's a mono wheel. I could imagine that it could even fit with the main > > wheel installed. I remeasured the window. It is actually a bit larger > > than initially thought. 1,40m x 1,40m. > >> > >> Why not print a side view of the fuselage at a definite scale and try > >> it on a plan ? > >> I've seen many a fuselage getting through much narrower apertures. > > > > Good idea. I will try that. > > > > I took photos of the room, if anyone wants to take a look: > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/zpurAR6q4TwX3H8C7 > > > > Kind regards, > > Simon > > > > > > > > > ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== ========== > > ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:45:14 AM PST US From: Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_Building:_Fitting_the_fuselage_through_the_win? =?utf-8?Q?dow=3F? 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bGFuayI+aHR0cDovL2ZvcnVtcy5tYXRyb25pY3MuY29tDQo9PT09PT09PT09PQ0KV0lLSSAtDQpl cnJlciBub3JlZmVycmVyIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+aHR0cDovL3dpa2kubWF0cm9uaWNzLmNv bQ0KPT09PT09PT09PT0NCmIgU2l0ZSAtDQogICAgICAgICAgLU1hdHQgRHJhbGxlLCBMaXN0IEFk bWluLg0KcmVsPSJub3JlZmVycmVyIG5vcmVmZXJyZXIiIHRhcmdldD0iX2JsYW5rIj5odHRwOi8v d3d3Lm1hdHJvbmljcy5jb20vY29udHJpYnV0aW9uDQo9PT09PT09PT09PQ ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 05:32:45 AM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? From: Simon Liebold Hi all and thanks for the helpful hints and especially for pointing out the importance of the alignment part and the part on insurance. I have to admit, I didn't think about that. It would make sense to contact a few insurers to get an idea about the difference in premiums. The kit came with Hi-Top Mod-64 (non-B) mod. However, I'm not sold yet on incorporating it. I would add complexity during the build. I am not tiny but also no basketball player (1.82m or 5ft 11.7in). I will try to answer all the question in a single message: > At first thought, the idea would be to turn the fuselage on it's side, > then somehow "thread" the fuselage through the aperture : > Thanks Gilles, I like your drawing. > Make a cradle which holds the bottom half in place from Firewall to tail. I bought the kit together with a cradle on wheels: https://photos.app.goo.gl/bpsFAz7fn1i4dTWu6 I think it will come handy throughout the built. > Nice size windows. How much does the window open? Or can the window be > easily removed when needing to transfer? P I think they open 90 to the side. I will have a chance to test it tomorrow when I meet to discuss the financial bit. Simon p.s. > Lancaster, Pa. USA This was a stop on my solo x-country years back. Aww, memories... ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 06:02:17 AM PST US From: Peter Zutrauen Subject: Re: Europa-List: Building: Fitting the fuselage through the window? FWIW wrt headroom, I am 6' (and shrinking lol), but with a 6'2" seat height, so always have difficulty with headroom in every plane I sit in. On my kit, I am cutting and lowering the cockpit module seat wedge (I have Andy's approval from way back when) as far as possible (still accommodating the glider brake control etc), which puts me in a more prone position and gives me the required headroom without ugly bubble windows, or RV-12 looking hi-top pudginess ;-). The stock fuse shape is just so sweet and efficient. To make up for my loss of legroom, I am removing the panels bottom "switch" ledge..... lots of panel room these days when going all-glass. an aside: I am still amazed how Richard V, ripped off the Europa design elements and threw them together into the slow and dorky pop-rivet RV12. Cheers and good luck! Pete A239 On Fri, Dec 21, 2018 at 8:41 AM Simon Liebold wrote: > Hi all and thanks for the helpful hints and especially for pointing out > the importance of the alignment part and the part on insurance. I have to > admit, I didn't think about that. It would make sense to contact a few > insurers to get an idea about the difference in premiums. > > The kit came with Hi-Top Mod-64 (non-B) mod. However, I'm not sold yet on > incorporating it. I would add complexity during the build. I am not tiny > but also no basketball player (1.82m or 5ft 11.7in). > > I will try to answer all the question in a single message: > > At first thought, the idea would be to turn the fuselage on it's side, > then somehow "thread" the fuselage through the aperture : > > Thanks Gilles, I like your drawing. > > Make a cradle which holds the bottom half in place from Firewall to tail. > > I bought the kit together with a cradle on wheels: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/bpsFAz7fn1i4dTWu6 I think it will come handy > throughout the built. > > > Nice size windows. How much does the window open? Or can the window be > easily removed when needing to transfer? P > > I think they open 90=C2=B0 to the side. I will have a chance to test it > tomorrow when I meet to discuss the financial bit. > > > Simon > > > p.s. > > Lancaster, Pa. USA > > This was a stop on my solo x-country years back. Aww, memories... > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:10:31 AM PST US From: Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_Europa-List:_RE:_Europa-List_Digest:_7_Msgs_-_12/20/18? 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