Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:03 AM - Re: Fuel line (Michael Grass)
2. 05:55 AM - Re: Fuel line (Jan de Jong)
3. 08:27 AM - Re: Re: Fuel line (Robert Borger)
4. 03:06 PM - Fuel Line and spares (Bud Yerly)
5. 07:32 PM - Re: Fuel Line and spares (Aircraft Specialty)
Message 1
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One thing never mentioned by any poster is the permitivity of fuel lines. Ea
rly on Europas, as far as I recollect, smelled always like fuel. This was du
e to the higher pemitivity of the R7 fuel lines. Then later on this email li
st we discovered that the R9 apparently had been fluoridated or other method
s applied which reduced the permitivity by a lot and the smell inside the co
ckpit is reduced.
Best regards
Michael Grass
> On Jun 1, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Fred Klein <freddythek10@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Will,
>
> FWIW, I=99ve used R9 hose aft of the firewall which is Teflon lined a
nd intended for fuel-injected automotive engines burning fuel with ethanol a
dded.
>
> Fred
> A194
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Jun 1, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Brian Davies <brian.davies44@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>>
>> Depends what fuel you intend to use. If you intend to use Mogas with eth
anol you need SAE J30 14R fuel pipe. 9R will do but it is intended for fuel
injected, high pressure applications so it is stiffer and harder to get on t
he connection barbs. Gates Barricade hose, available in the USA, is probabl
y the best available with the added benefit of being designed for low vapour
emission standards so you get far less fuel smell in the cockpit.
>>
>> Brian Davies
>>
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-se
rver@matronics.com] On Behalf Of William Daniell
>> Sent: 01 June 2019 16:03
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Europa-List: Fuel line
>>
>> Can the group tell me whether SAE J30R7 50psi made by continental is acce
ptable as a fuel line. It says it is fuel/emission.
>>
>> Please.
>>
>> Im guessing it is, but it is a good deal more flexible than the stuff i o
riginally fitted in colombia.
>>
>> Will
>>
>> William Daniell
>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
>> <image001.jpg>
>> Virus-free. www.avg.com
>>
Message 2
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I bought SAE J30 14R here:
https://nickstruckparts.com/products/fuelhose-27314-barricade-fuel-hose
On 6/2/2019 1:58 PM, Michael Grass wrote:
> One thing never mentioned by any poster is the permitivity of fuel
> lines. Early on Europas, as far as I recollect, smelled always like
> fuel. This was due to the higher pemitivity of the R7 fuel lines. Then
> later on this email list we discovered that the R9 apparently had been
> fluoridated or other methods applied which reduced the permitivity by
> a lot and the smell inside the cockpit is reduced.
>
> Best regards
> Michael Grass
>
> On Jun 1, 2019, at 5:54 PM, Fred Klein <freddythek10@gmail.com
> <mailto:freddythek10@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> Will,
>>
>> FWIW, Ive used R9 hose aft of the firewall which is Teflon lined and
>> intended for fuel-injected automotive engines burning fuel with
>> ethanol added.
>>
>> Fred
>> A194
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Jun 1, 2019, at 12:07 PM, Brian Davies <brian.davies44@gmail.com
>> <mailto:brian.davies44@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Depends what fuel you intend to use. If you intend to use Mogas
>>> with ethanol you need SAE J30 14R fuel pipe. 9R will do but it is
>>> intended for fuel injected, high pressure applications so it is
>>> stiffer and harder to get on the connection barbs. Gates Barricade
>>> hose, available in the USA, is probably the best available with the
>>> added benefit of being designed for low vapour emission standards so
>>> you get far less fuel smell in the cockpit.
>>>
>>> Brian Davies
>>>
>>> *From:*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
>>> [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] *On Behalf Of
>>> *William Daniell
>>> *Sent:* 01 June 2019 16:03
>>> *To:* europa-list@matronics.com <mailto:europa-list@matronics.com>
>>> *Subject:* Europa-List: Fuel line
>>>
>>> Can the group tell me whether SAE J30R7 50psi made by continental is
>>> acceptable as a fuel line. It says it is fuel/emission.
>>>
>>> Please.
>>>
>>> Im guessing it is, but it is a good deal more flexible than the
>>> stuff i originally fitted in colombia.
>>>
>>> Will
>>>
>>> William Daniell
>>> +1 786 878 0246
>>>
>>> <image001.jpg>
>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Virus-free. www.avg.com
>>> <http://www.avg.com/email-signature?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>
>>>
>>>
Message 3
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David,
Thanks for the info. Excellent article.
Blue skies & tailwinds,
Bob Borger
Europa XS Tri, Rotax 914, Airmaster C/S Prop (130 hrs).
Little Toot Sport Biplane, Lycoming Thunderbolt AEIO-320 EXP, Hercules Prop.
3705 Lynchburg Dr.
Corinth, TX 76208-5331
Cel: 817-992-1117
rlborger@mac.com
On Jun 1, 2019, at 2:31 PM, Europa48 <corinthian@me.com> wrote:
Hello Will
This might be useful, it gives explanations the various grades....
http://www.volksbolts.com/faq/fuelhose.htm
Regards
David
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=489423#489423
Message 4
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| Subject: | Fuel Line and spares |
Will and others,
If you go to :https/ www.customflightcreations.com<http://www.customflightc
reations.com> I have the fuel and other hose recommendations.
In the US, Gates, Continental, Goodyear or any of the reputable hose manufa
cturers manufacture =93barrier=94 fuel line that meet the EPA Recommended E
missions Requirements are fine. R7 is old line and has been replaced with
R14 which has a higher permeation resistance, and now is pretty much the st
andard. The Emissions standards are printed on the hose normally (marine h
ose is an exception) and can be identified easily by looking at the hose.
It is just rubber hose, lined with a butyl or viton inner liner . Normal c
arburated line is perfectly fine rated to 2-3 bar or about 30 to 50 PSI. I
t is cheaper also than the fuel injected line $4 vs $12. The difference is
more nylon webbing sewn into the rubber hose. The liner keeps the fuel sm
ell to virtually zero and as a result, the ethanol or fuel additives will n
ot harm the hose and it stays remarkably supple over time.
Researching fuel line is not enjoyable. Manufactures do not give enough in
fo, so simply go by the R rating.
Stay away from Teflon and PTFE hoses as they get brittle and take a set ove
rtime and what should be a lifetime hose ends up being a significant leak h
azard if the hose is simply moved during maintenance or rerouted.
Below is an excerpt from my own N12AY Parts List rather than the on line le
ss detailed version.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
Hoses:
Recommended Fuel Hose: 5/16=94 R14 or similar odor resistant silicone/but
yl/viton lined carburetor hose.
However: Parker Superflex Fuel hose is R7 equivalent and is OK for ethanol
/diesel/biodiesel etc.
>From Aircraft Spruce SUPER FLEX FUEL LINE HOSE 5/16"/7mm single braid 100PS
I working pressure, 0.562=94ID 14.3mm OD, 2" min bend radius, ACS P/N: 05-
07223 $3.50
I still prefer auto or marine hose R14 or J1527 15gm/m2/day from auto or ma
rine dealers.
Recommended Rotax Engine Coolant Hose suppliers: Are either Rotax supplied
rubber 17mm hoses rubber and one bent silicone hose, or I now use Silicone
heater hose of better quality but with issues on clamping as different spr
ing clamp may be needed or buy proper silicone hose clamps. Do not use Bre
eze or similar worm clamps as it cuts the silicone. Silicone hose should n
ot need heat reflective sleeve as it is highly heat resistant, but protecti
on is still recommended:
Alternate cooling hose: 5/8=94 Silicone hose from Amazon Hose or Aircraft
Spruce such as:
HPS 4-Ply 5/8" (16mm) 1 Foot Long Blue Silicone Hose or Fle
x Tech www.siliconehose.com
5/8" ID x 1 Foot Length. Max Temperature Rating: 350F. HPS High Temp 4-ply
Reinforced Blue
ACS : Silicone Hose 5/8"ID, 0.95"OD, .220Wall, ACS P/N 05-
00661 $9.65
Silicone Tube Coupler Hose meet or exceed SAEJ20 standard
Fits 17 mm Rotax fittings rather tight and can use the existing worm clamps
but not the spring clamps.
Better to order from the UK or similar 17mm line. Dayco is a manufacturer
but it is double silicone and slightly fatter than standard.
Europa Specific Shaped hose: 1=94 shaped hoses are bought directly from Eu
ropa. Europa stocks the new silicone hose at a good price. Highly recomme
nded. CO5 and CO6 in silicone are about 36UKPounds each.
If not available: Consider HPS formed hose like the 180/90/straight hoses f
ittings and a lot of clamps:
1" (25mm) 1-1/2" $25.00 HTSEC180-100-BLK HTSEC180-10
0-BLUE
HPS 90 degree:
1" (25mm) 4" 4-Ply $21.32 HTSEC90-100-BLK
HTSEC90-100-BLUE
HPS Straight typical:
1" (25mm) 1 Foot 5mm 4-Ply Polyester 350F $25.53 H
TST-100-BLK HTST-100-BLUE
Proper Clamps and couplers are available also www.hps-siliconehoses.com
Recommended Oil Lines:
=BD =93 Parker Push-Lok=AE 836 multipurpose hose delivers high temperature
performance, up to 302=B0F, and higher working pressures than 821 hose. App
roved with crimp or push on fittings and with a distinctive blue cover indi
cating a high temperature rating. Will fit on new 13mm fittings on Rotax 9
12 push on series oil tank fittings but must be heated and is a hard fit.
Cut off hose only once on.
=BD =93 Aeroquip AQP FC332 Push on hose is similar.
Alternate: Mil 6000 -40F to +250F: ACS P/N: 6000-8 1/2ID 7/8OD 1
000 $6.70
I don=92t use these on the 914 due to the proximity to the exhaust muffler
heat they do work but you have to inspect more often and cover with reflect
ive heat shield listed under heat shield:
Heat shield:
For lower engine coolant and oil lines use: Thermo-Tec Thermo-Sleeve P/N:14
015 for 1 to 1.5 inch hoses, and P/N: 14011 for 5/8 to 3/4 =93
For fire protection of fuel lines and or oil lines:
Fire Sleeve: Parker / Aeroquip 12 or 10 sized PN FBS2200 I prefer Parker S
tratoflex as it is more flexible. Aeroquip is very stiff and is poor for 2
inch bend radii.
To seal the fuzzy cut ends use either Firewall 2000 or Permatex Red Silicon
e RTV or the new .
Banding is: 10781-4 clamp to secure firesleeve material over the basic fab
ricated hose assembly if desired.
Fuel sight gauge hose/ clear tubing:
Aircraft Spruce P/N: 05-01063 3/8=94 OD, =BC=94 ID
Aircraft Spruce P/N: # 15-06094 Super Heavy Duty Pulse line 3/8=94 OD, 1/4
=93 ID
Brake Line:
Normally all Matco now: See Landing Gear Below
Brake Line: =BC OD .018 ID line: N Tubing - Natural P/N: 05-01011 ID Wall:
0.035=94, Burst 960
A/C Spruce: Matco Nylon II Tube 1/4" 06-01133 MSCNNR4/035
$1.49 Use with Matco Fittings.
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Window
s 10
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel Line and spares |
Bud and all,
Respectfully, there is absolutely nothing superior about a rubber hose
versus a conductive teflon hose EXCEPT for some cost savings. A properly
assembled and tested Conductive PTFE hose assembly will be lighter,
stronger, have far superior hose end connections and will outlast any
rubber hose on the market. To say that a rubber hose is superior is akin
to touting the attributes of a Ford Pinto as a rationalization for why it
is the best car in existence.
The reasons for this are too numerous to list here. We build thousands of
hoses annually for the experimental aircraft community, to include Reno
Racers, Competition Aerobatic aircraft teams, and OEM manufacturers.
Everyone needs to make their own decisions on what is an acceptable level
of safety/performance versus cost.
One of the incredible things about experimental aircraft is not having to
utilize certified parts. This has allowed a whole aftermarket of extremely
high quality products that provide an equal or higher level of safety than
certified products at a much more reasonable cost structure. Our market
niche happens to be fuel and oil systems for experimental aircraft.
We have a lot more information, including fabrication videos at
http://aircraftspecialty.com/howwemake.html
If anyone is interested in having a more in depth discussion about hoses,
please feel free to reach out to us. We are aircraft builders and love
working with other builders to find perfect solutions for their projects.
Have a great evening and have fun building.
Steve
On Sun, Jun 2, 2019 at 5:10 PM Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
> Will and others,
>
>
> If you go to :https/ www.customflightcreations.com I have the fuel and
> other hose recommendations.
>
>
> In the US, Gates, Continental, Goodyear or any of the reputable hose
> manufacturers manufacture =9Cbarrier=9D fuel line that meet t
he EPA Recommended
> Emissions Requirements are fine. R7 is old line and has been replaced wi
th
> R14 which has a higher permeation resistance, and now is pretty much the
> standard. The Emissions standards are printed on the hose normally (mari
ne
> hose is an exception) and can be identified easily by looking at the hose
.
> It is just rubber hose, lined with a butyl or viton inner liner . Normal
> carburated line is perfectly fine rated to 2-3 bar or about 30 to 50 PSI.
> It is cheaper also than the fuel injected line $4 vs $12. The difference
> is more nylon webbing sewn into the rubber hose. The liner keeps the fue
l
> smell to virtually zero and as a result, the ethanol or fuel additives wi
ll
> not harm the hose and it stays remarkably supple over time.
>
>
> Researching fuel line is not enjoyable. Manufactures do not give enough
> info, so simply go by the R rating.
>
> Stay away from Teflon and PTFE hoses as they get brittle and take a set
> overtime and what should be a lifetime hose ends up being a significant
> leak hazard if the hose is simply moved during maintenance or rerouted.
>
>
> Below is an excerpt from my own N12AY Parts List rather than the on line
> less detailed version.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> *Hoses:*
>
> *Recommended Fuel Hose: * 5/16=9D R14 or similar odor resistant
> silicone/butyl/viton lined carburetor hose.
>
> However: Parker Superflex Fuel hose is R7 equivalent and is OK for
> ethanol/diesel/biodiesel etc.
>
> From Aircraft Spruce SUPER FLEX FUEL LINE HOSE 5/16"/7mm single braid
> 100PSI working pressure, 0.562=9DID 14.3mm OD, 2" min bend radius,
ACS P/N:
> 05-07223 $3.50
>
> I still prefer auto or marine hose R14 or J1527 15gm/m2/day from auto or
> marine dealers.
>
>
> *Recommended Rotax Engine Coolant Hose suppliers: * Are either Rotax
> supplied rubber 17mm hoses rubber and one bent silicone hose, or I now us
e
> Silicone heater hose of better quality but with issues on clamping as
> different spring clamp may be needed or buy proper silicone hose clamps.
> Do not use Breeze or similar worm clamps as it cuts the silicone. Silico
ne
> hose should not need heat reflective sleeve as it is highly heat resistan
t,
> but protection is still recommended:
>
>
> *Alternate cooling hose: * 5/8=9D Silicone hose from Amazon Hose or
> Aircraft Spruce such as:
>
>
> HPS 4-Ply 5/8" (16mm) 1 Foot Long Blue Silicone Hose or
> Flex Tech www.siliconehose.com
>
> 5/8" ID x 1 Foot Length. Max Temperature Rating: 350F. HPS High Temp 4-pl
y
> Reinforced Blue
>
> ACS : Silicone Hose 5/8"ID, 0.95"OD, .220Wall, ACS P/N
> 05-00661 $9.65
>
> Silicone Tube Coupler Hose meet or exceed SAEJ20 standard
>
> Fits 17 mm Rotax fittings rather tight and can use the existing worm
> clamps but not the spring clamps.
>
>
> Better to order from the UK or similar 17mm line. Dayco is a manufacture
r
> but it is double silicone and slightly fatter than standard.
>
>
> *Europa Specific Shaped hose:* 1=9D shaped hoses are bought direct
ly from
> Europa. Europa stocks the new silicone hose at a good price. Highly
> recommended. CO5 and CO6 in silicone are about 36UKPounds each.
>
>
> If not available: Consider HPS formed hose like the 180/90/straight hoses
> fittings and a lot of clamps:
>
> 1" (25mm) 1-1/2" $25.00 HTSEC180-100-BLK
> HTSEC180-100-BLUE
>
> HPS 90 degree:
>
> 1" (25mm) 4" 4-Ply $21.32
> HTSEC90-100-BLK HTSEC90-100-BLUE
>
> HPS Straight typical:
>
> 1" (25mm) 1 Foot 5mm 4-Ply Polyester 350F $25.53
> HTST-100-BLK HTST-100-BLUE
>
> Proper Clamps and couplers are available also www.hps-siliconehoses.com
>
>
> *Recommended Oil Lines: *
>
> =C2=BD =9C Parker Push-Lok=C2=AE 836 multipurpose hose delivers hig
h temperature
> performance, up to 302=C2=B0F, and higher working pressures than 821 hose
.
> Approved with crimp or push on fittings and with a distinctive blue cover
> indicating a high temperature rating. Will fit on new 13mm fittings on
> Rotax 912 push on series oil tank fittings but must be heated and is a ha
rd
> fit. Cut off hose only once on.
>
>
> =C2=BD =9C Aeroquip AQP FC332 Push on hose is similar.
>
>
> Alternate: Mil 6000 -40F to +250F: ACS P/N: 6000-8 1/2ID 7/8OD
> 1000 $6.70
>
> I don=99t use these on the 914 due to the proximity to the exhaust
muffler
> heat they do work but you have to inspect more often and cover with
> reflective heat shield listed under heat shield:
>
>
> *Heat shield: *
>
> For lower engine coolant and oil lines use: Thermo-Tec Thermo-Sleeve
> P/N:14015 for 1 to 1.5 inch hoses, and P/N: 14011 for 5/8 to 3/4
=9C
>
>
> *For fire protection of fuel lines and or oil lines:*
>
> Fire Sleeve: Parker / Aeroquip 12 or 10 sized PN FBS2200 I prefer Parker
> Stratoflex as it is more flexible. Aeroquip is very stiff and is poor fo
r
> 2 inch bend radii.
>
> To seal the fuzzy cut ends use either Firewall 2000 or Permatex Red
> Silicone RTV or the new .
>
> Banding is: 10781-4 clamp to secure firesleeve material over the basic
> fabricated hose assembly if desired.
>
>
> *Fuel sight gauge hose/ clear tubing:*
>
> Aircraft Spruce P/N: 05-01063 3/8=9D OD, =C2=BC=9D ID
>
> Aircraft Spruce P/N: # 15-06094 Super Heavy Duty Pulse line 3/8=9D
OD, 1/4
> =9C ID
>
>
> *Brake Line: *
>
> Normally all Matco now: See Landing Gear Below
>
> Brake Line: =C2=BC OD .018 ID line: N Tubing - Natural P/N: 05-01011 ID
Wall:
> 0.035=9D, Burst 960
>
> A/C Spruce: Matco Nylon II Tube 1/4" 06-01133 MSCNNR4/035
> $1.49 Use with Matco Fittings.
>
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
> Windows 10
>
>
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