---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 07/14/19: 3 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:47 AM - Re: Rotax 912ULS (Bud Yerly) 2. 12:04 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS (William Daniell) 3. 12:51 PM - Re: Rotax 912ULS (Pete) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:11 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS Martin, I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to t he ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), bu t the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pum p gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required. The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust s ystems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic dur ing an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter R otax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky- Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same size as the original Rotax low torque starter. I didn=92t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard st arting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, spra g clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shaking, etc . just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax finally ma de adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitted t o what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Field reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL. The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimize d for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my out look on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912U L that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually m ore appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy d oes not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short term. Don=92t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is very econom ical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheating o n the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or mult iple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting guid es are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can=92t give you a q uick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issues un der warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has ha d to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil c oolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, but not enough. Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn=92t overheat on the ground, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn=92t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb l eaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. The H ACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controll ing vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lower pres sure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main jet. (A b it Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It takes s ome fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needle set tings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT mak es it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly eq ual.) Do not be sucked in to the =93big bore, higher power or other aftermarket c ylinder and cam mods=94 as the mean time between failure is just not docume nted. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the =93Columbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonable turbo normalizi ng of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, usin g Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stock carbs. T he key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level performance at h igher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and turbo manageme nt system. Other companies have what they call =93Bad Ass=94 and higher ou tput mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilities. Quite pricey, an d as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo conversion, prone to o wner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180 , 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine costly problems. Just my two cents. Bud Yerly Custom Flight Creations, Inc. Sent from Mail for Window s 10 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Martin Tuck Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old 912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options. Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only has 300 hours on it. I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged starting issues of the early engines. If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size of the starter. Many thanks, Martin Tuck N152MT ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 12:04:14 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian turbo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33". I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection!) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine complete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, jets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to use a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. The only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged. The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interesting interactions....he's a great bloke by the way. Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area. Will N460HJ On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly wrote: > Martin, > > I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to > the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), > but the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel > pump gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required. > > > The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust > systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic > during an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole n ew > XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque start er > Rotax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket > Sky-Tec starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the > same size as the original Rotax low torque starter. > > > I didn=99t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard > starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on start, > sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shakin g, > etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax final ly > made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitt ed > to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Fie ld > reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL. > > > The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are > optimized for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torqu e > starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely > changed my outlook on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that o f > a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912U LS > is actually more appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its > fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cos t > over the short term. > > > Don=99t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is ver y > economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the > fuel/electronics has been removed from the average owner/operator. > Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching > controls failing, overheating on the ground due to its running in lean at > all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer > time operations, a larger or multiple oil coolers are needed to keep the > oil in limits, troubleshooting guides are still in flux so give your deal er > a break if he can=99t give you a quick turn around. I have worked with a > number of Pipistrel owners with the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have > taken ownership of fixing the issues under warranty, but slowly and in my > opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as > has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to mak e > cowl modifications which were better, but not enough. > > > Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn=99t overheat on the gr ound, is > easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn=99t require a trip to the > Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can install a carb > leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is needed. Th e > HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve > controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The > lower pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the ma in > jet. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. > It takes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjuste d > needle settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper > range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressu re > are nearly equal.) > > > Do not be sucked in to the =9Cbig bore, higher power or other after market > cylinder and cam mods=9D as the mean time between failure is just n ot > documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I > call the =9CColumbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonabl e turbo > normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod is now > made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with da sh > pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the stoc k > carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level > performance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the > capabilities of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of > carbs and turbo management system. Other companies have what they call > =9CBad Ass=9D and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop > capabilities. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel > injected turbo conversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over > boosted the engines making reliability a problem. Props are made in > certain power ranges: 80-120, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your pro p > capability before upgrading your engine or you may have not just engine > costly problems. > > > Just my two cents. > > > Bud Yerly > > Custom Flight Creations, Inc. > > > Sent from Mail for > Windows 10 > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of Martin Tuck < > MJKTuck@cs.com> > *Sent:* Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM > *To:* Europa Builders Forum > *Subject:* Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS > > > I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old > 912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options. > > Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want > to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only > has 300 hours on it. > > I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty > starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged > starting issues of the early engines. > > If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the > engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same > engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size > of the starter. > > Many thanks, > > Martin Tuck > > N152MT > > ========== > st Email Forum - > pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:51:39 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS Great info Will! Thx! How bout a show and tell osh next week? ;-) > On Jul 14, 2019, at 3:05 PM, William Daniell wrote: > > Just to follow up the last para of Buds email - I have flown Colombian tur bo since 2004 with zero issues - as bud says I only use 33". > I can put you in touch with the man in Colombia (the Colombian Connection! ) - he'll make a kit and come fit it or you can fit it yourself. Mine compl ete mod cost about USD4k including new exhaust, airbox, oil scavenge tank, j ets and mounting brackets and I think that included the turbo. You have to u se a stock 80 horse - the high compression of the ULS causes detonation. Th e only mod to the engine is something done to the oil pump to make sure that the oil is scavenged. > > The Colombian guy doesnt speak English which will make for some interestin g interactions....he's a great bloke by the way. > > Happy to show and tell if anyone is in the area. > > Will > N460HJ > > >> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 1:50 PM Bud Yerly wrote: >> Martin, >> >> I know the XS uses a Rotax ring mount and changing engines from the UL to the ULS or 914 basically fits on any XS existing Fire Wall Forward (FWF), b ut the exhaust bends may be close to the cowl front and the ULS new fuel pum p gets pretty close to the cowl also. So some fiddling required. >> >> >> >> The Classic is somewhat different because of the shorter nose and exhaust systems changed slightly between the UL and ULS. The 914 on the Classic du ring an engine upgrade was a pain. Frankly, I just installed a whole new XS FWF on my Classic and it was worth every penny. The high torque starter Ro tax provides is a bit long for the Classic. Consider the aftermarket Sky-Te c starter as it appears to fit and is roughly half the cost and the same siz e as the original Rotax low torque starter. >> >> >> >> I didn=99t recommend any 912ULS at Custom Flight until after 2006. Hard starting, poor starters needing 12.5 volts to start, kick back on star t, sprag clutch issues, case cracking, horrible shutdown and start up shakin g, etc. just sowered me to recommending the engine. After 2006, Rotax final ly made adjustments that addressed these issues. Although they never admitt ed to what they had to do it was obvious when the new engines came out. Fie ld reports indicate the 912ULS (post 2006) are as reliable as the 80HP UL. >> >> >> >> The 912ULS new case is stronger, the ignition timing and boxes are optimi zed for smooth starts and running, it is equipped with a high torque starter standard, and many other little touches that have completely changed my out look on the 912ULS. The purchase price is very near that of a rebuild 912UL that is 1000 plus hours old. I can do carbs, so the 912ULS is actually mor e appealing to me than a 912iS fuel injected engine as its fuel economy does not completely trump the maintenance complexity and cost over the short ter m. >> >> >> >> Don=99t get me wrong. The iS engine starts and runs smooth, is ver y economical, and very complex. Your ability to maintain the fuel/electroni cs has been removed from the average owner/operator. Problems currently are with the automatic electronic fuse box switching controls failing, overheat ing on the ground due to its running in lean at all times, a much larger, or fan augmented, radiator is a must for summer time operations, a larger or m ultiple oil coolers are needed to keep the oil in limits, troubleshooting gu ides are still in flux so give your dealer a break if he can=99t give y ou a quick turn around. I have worked with a number of Pipistrel owners wit h the iS and Lockwood and Pipistrel have taken ownership of fixing the issue s under warranty, but slowly and in my opinion, incompletely. Pipistrel has had to add fans to the radiator (as has Lockwood on the AirCam), larger oil coolers, and Pipistrel had to make cowl modifications which were better, bu t not enough. >> >> >> >> Although the 912ULS burns more gas, it doesn=99t overheat on the gr ound, is easier to troubleshoot, annual maintenance doesn=99t require a trip to the Rotax dealer, and is quite a bit cheaper to buy. One can insta ll a carb leaning work around (HACman) if high altitude fuel economy is need ed. The HACman works by lowering the float bowl pressure via a needle valve controlling vacuum from the intake manifold to the float bowl tube. The lo wer pressure in the float bowl reduces the flow slightly through the main je t. (A bit Rube Goldberg, but it is effective if you fly above 3500 MSL. It t akes some fiddling with part throttle setting and even finely adjusted needl e settings to fine tune your mixture to get the EGT in the proper range. WOT makes it less effective as the manifold and carb throat pressure are nearly equal.) >> >> >> >> Do not be sucked in to the =9Cbig bore, higher power or other after market cylinder and cam mods=9D as the mean time between failure is ju st not documented. Keep the engine reasonably stock. One exception is what I call the =9CColumbian Turbo mod for the 912UL. This is a reasonabl e turbo normalizing of a stock UL 80 HP to about a 95 HP engine. This mod i s now made by an Italian company as well. Basically a small auto turbo with dash pot, using Rotax type plumbing, a different exhaust geometry and the s tock carbs. The key is it is a low boost pressure giving more sea level per formance at higher cruising altitudes. Pricey, but well within the capabili ties of the 912 as a 914 is just a 912 with a different set of carbs and tur bo management system. Other companies have what they call =9CBad Ass =9D and higher output mods increasing output beyond the prop capabilit ies. Quite pricey, and as I found on the Jason Parker fuel injected turbo c onversion, prone to owner/operator tweaking which over boosted the engines m aking reliability a problem. Props are made in certain power ranges: 80-12 0, 125-140, 150-180, 250-300. Check your prop capability before upgrading y our engine or you may have not just engine costly problems. >> >> >> >> Just my two cents. >> >> >> >> Bud Yerly >> >> Custom Flight Creations, Inc. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >> >> >> >> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Martin Tuck >> Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2019 10:13:51 PM >> To: Europa Builders Forum >> Subject: Europa-List: Rotax 912ULS >> >> >> I think I may have traced my intermittent starting problem of my old >> 912UL to the ignition boxes, so I'm weighing up my options. >> >> Two new ignition boxes are around $1,000 each (!) so I'm not sure I want >> to sink that kind of money into a 20 year old engine even though it only >> has 300 hours on it. >> >> I like the look of the 912ULS, it has a bit more power, a heavy duty >> starter and a slow start module that seems to have resolved the ragged >> starting issues of the early engines. >> >> If you have a 912ULS I'd be interested to hear what you think of the >> engine and how long you have had it. Also, will it fit in the same >> engine ring mount as the 912UL - I'm thinking particularly of the size >> of the starter. >> >> Many thanks, >> >> Martin Tuck >> >> N152MT >> >> ========== >> st Email Forum - >> pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========== >> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - >> ums.matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - >> matronics.com >> ========== >> p; - List Contribution Web Site - >> p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> http://www.matronics.com/contribution >> ========== >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.