---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 05/15/20: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:53 AM - Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (budyerly@msn.com) 2. 10:47 AM - Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (h&jeuropa) 3. 11:22 AM - Re: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (Pete) 4. 02:38 PM - Re: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (William Daniell) 5. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (William Daniell) 6. 02:59 PM - Re: Rotax 914 and Dynon comparability to calculate actual fuel u (budyerly@msn.com) 7. 05:08 PM - Re: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit (Gilles Thesee) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:53:35 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit From: "budyerly@msn.com" Sorry for the long delay. My virus protection doesn't like the matronics site. As for the ROTAX alternator. It is a dynamo so it does not require electrical excitation of the field circuit as there is none. Even the ignition coils in the stator are self generating. Pretty simple, basically a big lawn mower electrical system. So either battery, dynamo (ROTAX alternator), or both is not going to hurt a thing. Your automotive or standard alternator (even certified aircraft) require voltage to excite a field current before the rotating coils can provide power. Alternators are lighter, more powerful and cheaper to make watt to watt. An alternator is dependent on the battery to initiate the field. Cut the field and battery in a Cessna, then turn on only the battery, and the alternator will not fire, unless there is residual voltage stored in a capacitor in the system with enough energy to excite the field coil. To my limited knowledge of all solid state equipment currently available, that power backup to the main bus to excite an alternator field is no longer available. All backup batteries simply power the box only. Best Regards, Bud Yerly Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496378#496378 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:47:26 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit From: "h&jeuropa" Will, As Gilles pointed out above, the weak point of the Rotax system is the Ducatti rectifier/regulator. The electrical design is fine, the problem is the construction. Early ones, P/N 343620, had diodes that unsoldered internally. There is an easy work around for this (2 external diodes). Later ones, P/N 362001, are poorly manufactured with cold solder joints, unsoldered joints and mechanical failures. Either one seems to work pretty well if the load is kept low, certainly less than 10 amps and best if closer to 5 amps. Silent Hektik regulators, made in Germany have been used by many Rotax owners. They are difficult to purchase in the US, although they may be available from Vans Aircraft as an alternate on the RV12. Some owners have purchased John Deere garden tractor regulators and used them with success. Part number AM101406 is usually the one mentioned. B&C Speciality has just developed a replacement for Ducatti, the part number is AVC1. You can find an install manual on their website but it's not yet listed for sale. I built a Mike Miller replacement. Mike is an electrical engineer with a RV12. Ducatti failures are pretty common in them. He inspected many failed Ducatti units and summarized the problems as stated above. He designed a replacement that is electrically identical but has more robust components and most importantly larger heat sink. His will operate at 20 amps all day! Our Europa draws about 8 amps in flight. We used an early Ducatti with external diodes for many years. At some point we purchased the later model Ducatti and used that for a couple years. Finally a year ago I built the MM replacement and have had no problems. I hope this offers some insight and maybe solutions. Your 70A spike sounds like an instrumentation problem, but other than temporarily installing a second ammeter, I don't have a solution in mind. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496382#496382 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 11:22:21 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit Hi Jim! Could you share the Miller design? I assume it can be easily tweaked go give earthX battery charge levels(?) Cheers snd thx! Pete :) C-GNPZ > On May 15, 2020, at 1:58 PM, h&jeuropa wrote: > > > Will, > > As Gilles pointed out above, the weak point of the Rotax system is the Ducatti rectifier/regulator. The electrical design is fine, the problem is the construction. Early ones, P/N 343620, had diodes that unsoldered internally. There is an easy work around for this (2 external diodes). Later ones, P/N 362001, are poorly manufactured with cold solder joints, unsoldered joints and mechanical failures. Either one seems to work pretty well if the load is kept low, certainly less than 10 amps and best if closer to 5 amps. > > Silent Hektik regulators, made in Germany have been used by many Rotax owners. They are difficult to purchase in the US, although they may be available from Vans Aircraft as an alternate on the RV12. > > Some owners have purchased John Deere garden tractor regulators and used them with success. Part number AM101406 is usually the one mentioned. > > B&C Speciality has just developed a replacement for Ducatti, the part number is AVC1. You can find an install manual on their website but it's not yet listed for sale. > > I built a Mike Miller replacement. Mike is an electrical engineer with a RV12. Ducatti failures are pretty common in them. He inspected many failed Ducatti units and summarized the problems as stated above. He designed a replacement that is electrically identical but has more robust components and most importantly larger heat sink. His will operate at 20 amps all day! > > Our Europa draws about 8 amps in flight. We used an early Ducatti with external diodes for many years. At some point we purchased the later model Ducatti and used that for a couple years. Finally a year ago I built the MM replacement and have had no problems. > > I hope this offers some insight and maybe solutions. Your 70A spike sounds like an instrumentation problem, but other than temporarily installing a second ammeter, I don't have a solution in mind. > > Jim Butcher > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496382#496382 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 02:38:00 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit Jim thanks YES - I have to say I was quite alarmed by 70A! Since I was in the air some way from a suitable place to land I carried on figuring that all I had heard indicated that the rotax would be hard put to produce a consistent 18A let alone 70A. The sparks and smoke stayed in the wire. Of course I checked and rechecked everything but could never replicate the fault on the ground. This suggests that this is something to do with a warm engine and high power. As a reuslt of this discussion it occurred to me that the fault might be the voltage regulator showing signs of failing? Mine is mounted on the engine side of the firewall so heat could be a factor. I have a hall effect sensor on the battery wire and this has never shown major fluctuations. So yes Im guessing that its a fault in the dynon or my installation or a loose connection or a bit of all three. My next item is to check the output of the alt using an independent instrument. Will William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 1:52 PM h&jeuropa wrote: > > Will, > > As Gilles pointed out above, the weak point of the Rotax system is the > Ducatti rectifier/regulator. The electrical design is fine, the problem is > the construction. Early ones, P/N 343620, had diodes that unsoldered > internally. There is an easy work around for this (2 external diodes). > Later ones, P/N 362001, are poorly manufactured with cold solder joints, > unsoldered joints and mechanical failures. Either one seems to work pretty > well if the load is kept low, certainly less than 10 amps and best if > closer to 5 amps. > > Silent Hektik regulators, made in Germany have been used by many Rotax > owners. They are difficult to purchase in the US, although they may be > available from Vans Aircraft as an alternate on the RV12. > > Some owners have purchased John Deere garden tractor regulators and used > them with success. Part number AM101406 is usually the one mentioned. > > B&C Speciality has just developed a replacement for Ducatti, the part > number is AVC1. You can find an install manual on their website but it's > not yet listed for sale. > > I built a Mike Miller replacement. Mike is an electrical engineer with a > RV12. Ducatti failures are pretty common in them. He inspected many > failed Ducatti units and summarized the problems as stated above. He > designed a replacement that is electrically identical but has more robust > components and most importantly larger heat sink. His will operate at 20 > amps all day! > > Our Europa draws about 8 amps in flight. We used an early Ducatti with > external diodes for many years. At some point we purchased the later model > Ducatti and used that for a couple years. Finally a year ago I built the > MM replacement and have had no problems. > > I hope this offers some insight and maybe solutions. Your 70A spike > sounds like an instrumentation problem, but other than temporarily > installing a second ammeter, I don't have a solution in mind. > > Jim Butcher > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496382#496382 > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:39:44 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit Bud - So just to check that I understood, I could have the ALT ON and the BAT OFF without harming the electrical system? Will William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Fri, May 15, 2020 at 9:56 AM budyerly@msn.com wrote: > > Sorry for the long delay. My virus protection doesn't like the matronics > site. > > As for the ROTAX alternator. It is a dynamo so it does not require > electrical excitation of the field circuit as there is none. Even the > ignition coils in the stator are self generating. Pretty simple, basically > a big lawn mower electrical system. So either battery, dynamo (ROTAX > alternator), or both is not going to hurt a thing. > > Your automotive or standard alternator (even certified aircraft) require > voltage to excite a field current before the rotating coils can provide > power. Alternators are lighter, more powerful and cheaper to make watt to > watt. > > An alternator is dependent on the battery to initiate the field. Cut the > field and battery in a Cessna, then turn on only the battery, and the > alternator will not fire, unless there is residual voltage stored in a > capacitor in the system with enough energy to excite the field coil. To my > limited knowledge of all solid state equipment currently available, that > power backup to the main bus to excite an alternator field is no longer > available. All backup batteries simply power the box only. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496378#496378 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:59:10 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Rotax 914 and Dynon comparability to calculate actual fuel u From: "budyerly@msn.com" Tony, Since no one answered: The Dynon normally uses the Red Cube FT60. Follow the instructions on orientation and it gives few problems. They are easy to clog if you allow bits of hose float around in your fuel lines so flush first before install. I prefer to run my return along side my fuel supply line on the top of the cockpit module. Then past the bulkhead (mud flap in the rear of the wheel well) then to a return red cube that is fastened so as to be as straight as possible, from the top to the return fitting on the tank. On some aircraft, we put the red cubes together under the baggage bay. The supply line is near the pump and the return is plumbed into the fuel drain line. This puts both cubes together for maintenance and allows a single plug for wiring. Try to keep the cube inlet and outlet as straight as possible and between the pump and engine on the supply. See attached Drawing. If it doesn't show, email me direct. Best Regards, Bud Yerly Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496395#496395 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/fuel_system_914_mono_europa_209.png ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 05:08:10 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Is there any reason to have a separate battery and alt swit From: Gilles Thesee Le 15/05/2020 23:33, William Daniell a crit: Will, There is a law in physics measurements : the more parameters you measure, the more you scratch your head^^! That said, you wrote that your bus - or battery - voltage remained within the "green" limits during each of the events. So no reason to suspect the voltage regulator. The only item capable of supplying more than the 21 amps of the alternator is the battery, but while doing this its voltage would sag due to internal resistance (Cf Ohm's law for a generator). 70 amp is no trifle. So the main probabilty is an ammeter artefact. The best way to measure currents is with a Hall effect sensor, as the shunt may induce side effects in your circuits with high currents. But first things first, without independent and reliable voltage and possibly current measurements or logging, no assumptions can be made. Concerning disconnecting the battery while running, not sure it would be a safe thing to do, especially in flight : -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.