Europa-List Digest Archive

Thu 06/11/20


Total Messages Posted: 13



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 12:41 AM - Re: Unimproved field flying with the Europa (clivesutton)
     2. 01:38 AM - Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Pete)
     3. 02:21 AM - Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (GTH)
     4. 08:19 AM - Re : IFR certification (John Wigney)
     5. 01:40 PM - Re: IFR certification (h&jeuropa)
     6. 01:46 PM - Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (h&jeuropa)
     7. 02:01 PM - Re: Re: IFR certification (Ken Carpenter)
     8. 02:09 PM - Re: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Pete)
     9. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: IFR certification (Pete)
    10. 02:22 PM - Re: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Dave Allen)
    11. 02:41 PM - Re: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Pete)
    12. 03:18 PM - Re: Re: IFR certification (Jeff B)
    13. 03:43 PM - Re: IFR certification (h&jeuropa)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 12:41:47 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Unimproved field flying with the Europa
    From: "clivesutton" <clive.maf@googlemail.com>
    On the Tri vs Mono point generally, i've owned a Tri and now a Mono and having flown both have found the Tri to be a bit more versatile vs RWY surface (the Mono laps up grass). Potentially the Tri can be at bit heavier wrt TO length (though honestly there is such a wide variation in empty weights, that comment is perhaps academic). I too have found insurance to be very similar for the two types - so i consider that a non-issue. But sadly, [my opinion] the perceived issues with Mono handling can and seemingly do impact its resale value. Again, my view - that said, anything less than 27k GBP in flying condition is probably a real bargain. For the recently joined/enquirers on this site; it is entirely possible to convert a Mono to a TriGear (with a 30lb weight penalty/~5k parts cost). John Wighton is also working on offering both the parts and i believe the installation service, to convert (presumably either type) to a conventional Taildragger that uses spring-steel legs. His contact email is: Mods@theeuropaclub.org Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496765#496765


    Message 2


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    Time: 01:38:18 AM PST US
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    =EF=BB Hi Kingsley, Fwiw, my classic was using solids, in the original sheaths, and I found the f riction to be very high and the action to be not smooth. The required bends w ere too tight and ultimately resulted in a solid wire break from fatigue (lu ckily it happened during run-up). I decided to replace the solids and revert back to stranded using teflon-coa ted bicycle brake cable and love it. Very smooth, and zero risk of fast thro ttle action kinking. Im very happy that i changed back. https://www.mec.ca/en/product/5023-566/1-5mm-Stainless-Steel-Teflon-Disc-Bra ke-Cable?colour=NOC02&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiMj7qq356QIVgp6zCh0V3gjqEAQYAiAB EgLEd_D_BwE Cheers, Pete >> On Jun 11, 2020, at 12:49 AM, Kingsley Hurst <kingsnjan@westnet.com.au> w rote: > =EF=BB For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wir e vs stranded > Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables? > What thickness is the required inner piano wire? > Where do you obtain the piano wire? > Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the thr ottle box? if so, how did you do the change over from the original stranded inner to the solid inner? > Any photos would be welcomed too please. > > Thank you in anticipation > > Kingsley in Oz >


    Message 3


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    Time: 02:21:06 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    From: GTH <gilles.thesee@free.fr>
    Le 11/06/2020 06:38, Kingsley Hurst a crit: > /For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wire vs > stranded// > /// > > * // /Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables?/ > * // /What thickness is the required inner piano wire?/ > * // /Where do you obtain the piano wire?/ > * // /Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables > inside the throttle box? if so, how did you do the change over > from the original stranded inner to the solid inner?/ > Hi Kingsley, Done it. Did keep the original outer cases, will measure thickness next time we remove the cowling. Some pictures of *our* setup Being the one who installed the cables and routing, I ensured gracious sweeps and easy swiveling at the lever junctions. We never had any issue with the throttle cables in 15+ years, some degree of smooth friction make them "feel" like any type certificate aircraft. And BTW, we never disconnected the piano wires from the lever arms and provided ferm stops on the throttle lever, so never had to re-synch the carbs. http://contrails.free.fr/engine_rotax_stops.php FWIW, -- Best regards, Gilles http://contrails.free.fr http://lapierre.skunkworks.free.fr


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:19:12 AM PST US
    From: John Wigney <johnwigney@windstream.net>
    Subject: Re : IFR certification
    Hi Jeff, There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way. Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205. Cheers, John /From: Jeff B //<topglock@cox.net>//// / /Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, / /-- Jeff /


    Message 5


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    Time: 01:40:57 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: IFR certification
    From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
    Jeff, You don't actually certify for IFR flight. Per the operating limitations it must be equipped in accordance with FAR 91.205 for instrument or night flight. There you will learn that for IFR you must have: Radios/Nav equipment suitable for the route, gyroscopic rate of turn indcator, slip skid indicator, clock, gyroscopic pitch & bank indicator and gyroscopic direction indicator. In addition, static pitot, altimiter and encoder certification and transponder certification every 24 months. If you have a GPS navigator (GNS 430 or similar) the database must be updated every 28 days. If you don't have a GPS navigator (even handheld GPS are usually certified for enroute ifr), you can still fly ifr but you can't fly GPS approaches, you are limited to VOR or ILS approaches. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496779#496779


    Message 6


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    Time: 01:46:29 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
    We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed. We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780


    Message 7


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    Time: 02:01:09 PM PST US
    From: Ken Carpenter <kbcarpenter@comcast.net>
    Subject: Re: IFR certification
    I think IFR certified requires a heated pitot also. Sent from my iPad Ken Carpenter > On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:43 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote: > > > Jeff, > > You don't actually certify for IFR flight. Per the operating limitations it must be equipped in accordance with FAR 91.205 for instrument or night flight. > > There you will learn that for IFR you must have: Radios/Nav equipment suitable for the route, gyroscopic rate of turn indcator, slip skid indicator, clock, gyroscopic pitch & bank indicator and gyroscopic direction indicator. In addition, static pitot, altimiter and encoder certification and transponder certification every 24 months. > > If you have a GPS navigator (GNS 430 or similar) the database must be updated every 28 days. > > If you don't have a GPS navigator (even handheld GPS are usually certified for enroute ifr), you can still fly ifr but you can't fly GPS approaches, you are limited to VOR or ILS approaches. > > Jim > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496779#496779 > > > > > > > > >


    Message 8


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    Time: 02:09:27 PM PST US
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    FWIW: Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the broken solid (which by the way over-powered the carbs throttle spring and stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another. Examining the routing of the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too high, and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire. I sourced teflon-coated bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up with teflon spray and installed them. Repeated tests of slamming the throttle forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rotax springs have adequate tension to pull consistently. I did however have to tighten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creeping from the same spring tension. Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, the throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood). Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw. Im just ecstatic that the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didnt lose power in the climb. Cheers and blue skies, Pete > On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote: > > > We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We did it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttle quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed. > > We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables but we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too. > > Jim & Heather > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780 > > > > > > > > >


    Message 9


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    Time: 02:15:22 PM PST US
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: IFR certification
    ...and thus I expect a second alternator such as the BNC or now the EdgePerformance rear mount. Cheers, Pete > On Jun 11, 2020, at 5:10 PM, Ken Carpenter <kbcarpenter@comcast.net> wrote: > > > I think IFR certified requires a heated pitot also. > > Sent from my iPad > Ken Carpenter > >> On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:43 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote: >> >> >> Jeff, >> >> You don't actually certify for IFR flight. Per the operating limitations it must be equipped in accordance with FAR 91.205 for instrument or night flight. >> >> There you will learn that for IFR you must have: Radios/Nav equipment suitable for the route, gyroscopic rate of turn indcator, slip skid indicator, clock, gyroscopic pitch & bank indicator and gyroscopic direction indicator. In addition, static pitot, altimiter and encoder certification and transponder certification every 24 months. >> >> If you have a GPS navigator (GNS 430 or similar) the database must be updated every 28 days. >> >> If you don't have a GPS navigator (even handheld GPS are usually certified for enroute ifr), you can still fly ifr but you can't fly GPS approaches, you are limited to VOR or ILS approaches. >> >> Jim >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496779#496779 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > > >


    Message 10


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    Time: 02:22:20 PM PST US
    From: Dave Allen <dave11allen@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    I am interested to know how you made the adjustment to connect the cable at the throttle lever. Dave On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 22:13, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote: > > FWIW: > Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the > broken solid (which by the way over-powered the carb=99s throttle s pring and > stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another. Examining the routing of > the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too hig h, > and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire. I sourced teflon-coated > bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up wi th > teflon spray and installed them. Repeated tests of slamming the throttle > forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rota x > springs have adequate tension to pull consistently. I did however have t o > tighten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creepin g > from the same spring tension. > > Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, > the throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has > remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood). > > Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw. I=99m just ecst atic that > the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didn=99 t lose > power in the climb. > > Cheers and blue skies, > Pete > > > > On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote: > > att.net> > > > > We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We di d > it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add thrott le > quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed. > > > > We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables bu t > we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased > complete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We di d > have to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs st ay > in sync from year to year too. > > > > Jim & Heather > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > >


    Message 11


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    Time: 02:41:57 PM PST US
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire)
    I wish I had taken picture now. All I did was sand down the lead cable end and insert it into the re-used ni cely made bushed (for the lever bolt), steel, allen-key locked fitting, addi ng copious amounts of loctite prior to inserting the cable end and tightenin g the small 4-40 allen-bolt to lock in the cable. Static tests showed that i t was more than strong enough. I have not yet re-inspected it, but the throt tle function is still perfect. If the end did fail, the carb would go open t hrottle, as airplanes should :-) Cheers, Pete > On Jun 11, 2020, at 5:31 PM, Dave Allen <dave11allen@gmail.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB > I am interested to know how you made the adjustment to connect the cable a t the throttle lever. > > Dave > >> On Thu, 11 Jun 2020 at 22:13, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote: >> >> FWIW: >> Understanding the reasoning behind the solid wire, I first replaced the b roken solid (which by the way over-powered the carb=99s throttle sprin g and stuck it at the 20% throttle level) with another. Examining the routi ng of the classic, the bends are too tight for solid wire, its friction too h igh, and inducing fatigue cracking of the solid wire. I sourced teflon-coat ed bicycle stranded cable, modified the ends appropriately, lubed them up wi th teflon spray and installed them. Repeated tests of slamming the throttle forward did not induce any kinking in the throttle box, as the stock rotax s prings have adequate tension to pull consistently. I did however have to ti ghten the throttle box friction pivot to keep the throttle from creeping fro m the same spring tension. >> >> Bottom line, at least in my Classic, which has unavoidable tight bends, t he throttles are smooth as silk, and the balancing was easy and has remained constant in the 50 hours so far (knock on wood). >> >> Just wanted to throw my experience out there fwiw. I=99m just ecst atic that the solid wire broke on the ground (with a passenger) and I didn =99t lose power in the climb. >> >> Cheers and blue skies, >> Pete >> >> >> > On Jun 11, 2020, at 4:54 PM, h&amp;jeuropa <butcher43@att.net> wrote: >> > att.net> >> > >> > We installed solid wire throttle cables during our initial build. We di d it because there were a couple instances where pilots tried to add throttl e quickly and the wire cables kinked in the throttle box and jammed. >> > >> > We tried to purchase piano wire to fit in the Europa supplied cables bu t we were unable to straighten it so that it worked properly. We purchased c omplete cables from Aircraft Spruce and have never had a problem. We did ha ve to devise fittings at each end. As Gilles points out, our carbs stay in sync from year to year too. >> > >> > Jim & Heather >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Read this topic online here: >> > >> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496780#496780 >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> ========== >> pa-List" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Na vigator?Europa-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contributio n >> ========== >> >> >>


    Message 12


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    Time: 03:18:50 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: IFR certification
    From: Jeff B <topglock@cox.net>
    I am amazed at the knowledge on his list. Thanks to all who have contacted me concerning IFR flight. You've managed to make it all clear... :) Jeff On 6/11/2020 3:39 PM, h&amp;jeuropa wrote: > > Jeff, > > You don't actually certify for IFR flight. Per the operating limitations it must be equipped in accordance with FAR 91.205 for instrument or night flight. > > There you will learn that for IFR you must have: Radios/Nav equipment suitable for the route, gyroscopic rate of turn indcator, slip skid indicator, clock, gyroscopic pitch & bank indicator and gyroscopic direction indicator. In addition, static pitot, altimiter and encoder certification and transponder certification every 24 months. > > If you have a GPS navigator (GNS 430 or similar) the database must be updated every 28 days. > > If you don't have a GPS navigator (even handheld GPS are usually certified for enroute ifr), you can still fly ifr but you can't fly GPS approaches, you are limited to VOR or ILS approaches. > > Jim > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496779#496779 > > > > > > > > >


    Message 13


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    Time: 03:43:09 PM PST US
    Subject: Re: IFR certification
    From: "h&amp;jeuropa" <butcher43@att.net>
    Jeff, There is no requirement for heated pitot. But it is probably a good idea. Jim Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=496790#496790




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