---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/16/20: 13 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 09:29 AM - Re: Re : IFR certification (Paul McAllister) 2. 09:39 AM - Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Paul McAllister) 3. 10:02 AM - Re: Re : IFR certification (Pete) 4. 10:05 AM - Re: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) (Pete) 5. 11:03 AM - Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) () 6. 11:15 AM - Re: Re : IFR certification (Kevin Challis) 7. 11:21 AM - Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) () 8. 12:34 PM - N460HJ wouldnt start this am (William Daniell) 9. 12:54 PM - Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) () 10. 01:29 PM - Re: N460HJ wouldnt start this am (Pete) 11. 03:41 PM - Re: N460HJ wouldnt start this am (William Daniell) 12. 05:15 PM - Re: Re : IFR certification (Paul McAllister) 13. 06:53 PM - Re: Re : IFR certification (Pete) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 09:29:47 AM PST US From: Paul McAllister Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : IFR certification Hi John, I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got away with it" I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds. I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use. Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary" Cheers, Paul On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney wrote: > Hi Jeff, > > There is a good link on this subject at > https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations > > I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my > monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a > good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to > fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to > be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 > degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now > fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well > following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary > concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way. > > Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an > entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section > 91.205. > > Cheers, John > > > *From: Jeff B ** * > > *Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering > if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR > flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that > might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about > it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, * > *-- Jeff * > ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 09:39:43 AM PST US From: Paul McAllister Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Kingsley, mate I hope you don't mind me saying but you are trying to fix something that isn't broken. :) I had great success by shortening my cables to a more appropriate length and over the years there hasn't been a hint of an issue with kinking. Cheers, Paul On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:44 PM Kingsley Hurst wrote: > For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wire vs > stranded > > - Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables? > - What thickness is the required inner piano wire? > - Where do you obtain the piano wire? > - Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside > the throttle box? if so, how did you do the change over from the original > stranded inner to the solid inner? > > Any photos would be welcomed too please. > > Thank you in anticipation > > Kingsley in Oz > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:02:23 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : IFR certification Great write-up Paul, thx! Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up? > On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > =EF=BB > Hi John, > > I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Euro pa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high perso nal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live i n the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should ne ver fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in oth er aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got aw ay with it" > > I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immedi ately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there a nd then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (real ly) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid ici ng conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could ne ver get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed is n't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging ou t on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds. > > I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR f lying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewher e crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use. > > Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary" > > Cheers, Paul > > > >> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney w rote: >> Hi Jeff, >> >> There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft- building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a-h omebuilt-for-ifr-operations >> >> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my mon owheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly singl e pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairly n eutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off co urse if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a headi ng autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the pin k line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really hav e no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way. >> >> Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an ent ry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205. >> >> Cheers, John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From: Jeff B >> >> Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering i f someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR fli ght (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that mig ht mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, >> >> -- Jeff ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:05:02 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) .....ditto..... and i reverted my purchased classic back to smooth problem f ree stranded after the solid broke (!). :-) > On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:49 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: > > =EF=BB > Kingsley, mate I hope you don't mind me saying but you are trying to fix s omething that isn't broken. :) > > I had great success by shortening my cables to a more appropriate length a nd over the years there hasn't been a hint of an issue with kinking. > > Cheers, Paul > >> On Wed, Jun 10, 2020 at 11:44 PM Kingsley Hurst wrote: >> For those who have been there and done it . . . . . . Piano wire vs stra nded >> Did you replace the outer as well as the inner cables? >> What thickness is the required inner piano wire? >> Where do you obtain the piano wire? >> Did you use the existing fittings on the ends of the cables inside the th rottle box? if so, how did you do the change over from the original strande d inner to the solid inner? >> Any photos would be welcomed too please. >> >> Thank you in anticipation >> >> Kingsley in Oz >> >> ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 11:03:02 AM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Kingsley, I used solid stainless steel Bowden wire, .078" diameter. As I did my own firewall forward I purchased bicycle cable, removed the twisted wire and inserted the solid Bowden wire. Regarding the connection to the throttle lever, I used AN111 Cable bushings as pictured below. Both items were purchased from Aircraft Spruce. Simply bend the end of the Bowden cable around the bushing forming a closed question mark (?) and secure it with Redux or JB Weld. Attach the cable to the throttle lever as per the Europa instructions. 17+ years of trouble free operation. Works a treat. Regards, Erich N28ET Classic Mono 914 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:15:03 AM PST US From: Kevin Challis Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : IFR certification I did my imc training in my trigear No problems at all. I know some aircraft are more stable but to say it=99s not a good IFR a ircraft is not what I have found. Kevin Challis G ODJG > On 16 Jun 2020, at 18:06, Pete wrote: > > =EF=BB > Great write-up Paul, thx! > > Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up? > >>> On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: >>> >> =EF=BB >> Hi John, >> >> I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Eur opa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high pers onal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should n ever fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in ot her aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed wel l enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got a way with it" >> >> I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft immed iately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there a nd then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (real ly) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid ici ng conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could ne ver get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed is n't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging ou t on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds. >> >> I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR f lying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewher e crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use. >> >> Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary" >> >> Cheers, Paul >> >> >> >>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney wrote: >>> Hi Jeff, >>> >>> There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft -building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a- homebuilt-for-ifr-operations >>> >>> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my mo nowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good I FR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly sin gle pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairl y neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a he ading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the p ink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really h ave no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way. >>> >>> Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an en try in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.205 .. >>> >>> Cheers, John >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> From: Jeff B >>> >>> Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering i f someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR fli ght (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that mig ht mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, >>> >>> -- Jeff ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:21:38 AM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Kingsley, I used solid stainless steel Bowden wire, .078" diameter. As I did my own firewall forward I purchased bicycle cable, removed the twisted wire and inserted the solid Bowden wire. Regarding the connection to the throttle lever, I used AN111 Cable bushings as pictured below. Both items were purchased from Aircraft Spruce. Simply bend the end of the Bowden cable around the bushing forming a closed question mark (?) and secure it with Redux or JB Weld. Attach the cable to the throttle lever as per the Europa instructions. 17+ years of trouble free operation. Works a treat. Regards, Erich N28ET Classic Mono 914 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 12:34:08 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Europa-List: N460HJ wouldnt start this am I should think that i had been flying several times with this. This is 50hours after a hundred hour check. The engine which was zero hours had been sitting for about 8 years before i installed it William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:54:34 PM PST US From: Subject: Europa-List: Throttle cables with solid inner (piano wire) Kingsley, I used solid stainless steel Bowden wire, .078" diameter. As I did my own firewall forward I purchased bicycle cable, removed the twisted wire and inserted the solid Bowden wire. Regarding the connection to the throttle lever, I used AN111 Cable bushings as pictured below. Both items were purchased from Aircraft Spruce. Simply bend the end of the Bowden cable around the bushing forming a closed question mark (?) and secure it with Redux or JB Weld. Attach the cable to the throttle lever as per the Europa instructions. 17+ years of trouble free operation. Works a treat. Regards, Erich N28ET Classic Mono 914 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:29:08 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: N460HJ wouldnt start this am Wow! Should be part of the 5 year rubber service? Lucky you didnt burn any cyls? How were your egts? (Or did it just open up all of a sudden?) Another thing for me to watch for (spares are on my shelf). Cheers > On Jun 16, 2020, at 3:54 PM, William Daniell wrote: > > > I should think that i had been flying several times with this. > > This is 50hours after a hundred hour check. > > The engine which was zero hours had been sitting for about 8 years before i installed it > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > <20200614_130803.jpg> ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 03:41:56 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: N460HJ wouldnt start this am Well pete interesting that you mentioned that... yes it is and no it was about the only thing i didn't change. The colombian knowledge based on every climate from temperate to tropical is that rotax carb rubbers are known to fail in hot country. Rotax motors are used and abused (they use them for crop dusting in mxp savannah) in ways that would make most of us blench and giving me a great deal of confidence in rotax engines. the knowledge about what fails and doesnt fail is based on real life. Btw i live in miami. And yes...very, very lucky. I think cyl burn could have been the best outcome. The worst doesn't bear thinking about. I posted it so that everyone can learn through my mistake. Henceforth i shall change every other year and follow buds advice to check closely every 25 hours. Will William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Tue, Jun 16, 2020, 16:33 Pete wrote: > > Wow! Should be part of the =9C5 year rubber=9D service? > > Lucky you didnt burn any cyl=99s? How were your egt=99s? (Or did it just open > up all of a sudden?) > > Another thing for me to watch for (spares are on my shelf). > > Cheers > > > On Jun 16, 2020, at 3:54 PM, William Daniell < > wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB > > I should think that i had been flying several times with this. > > > > This is 50hours after a hundred hour check. > > > > The engine which was zero hours had been sitting for about 8 years > before i installed it > > > > William Daniell > > +1 786 878 0246 > > <20200614_130803.jpg> > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 05:15:39 PM PST US From: Paul McAllister Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : IFR certification Pete, for a while I did my practice currency this way. I could actually fly an approach at 90 knots and still get it slow enough to get the gear out and land. The trouble with this was that you only needed the slightest distraction and you would be joining the ranks of =9Cthose who have =9D The other challenge is that it was rare to break out in the clear, cloud bottoms would be straggly and when you are at minimums you have to quickly decide if the RVR is sufficient, you have enough of the environment in view and the the runway will provide enough breaking action. To be honest I always found single pilot IFR really tough and during my brief stint of professional flying I thought I had died and gone to heaven with 2 crew operations. Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers, Paul On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:06 PM Pete wrote: > Great write-up Paul, thx! > > Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up? > > On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister > wrote: > > =EF=BB > Hi John, > > I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my > Europa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained hig h > personal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I > live in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one > should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up > ice in other aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft > performed well enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had > happened was "I got away with it" > > I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft > immediately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flyin g > there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was > really (really) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we > should avoid icing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many > times. Over the years I got smarter at figuring out potential or possibl e > conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is tha t > its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You > feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds. > > I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR > flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from > somewhere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace > System (NAS) a delight to use. > > Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary" > > Cheers, Paul > > > On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney > wrote: > >> Hi Jeff, >> >> There is a good link on this subject at >> https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/fre quently-asked-questions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations >> >> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my >> monowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a >> good IFR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to >> fly single pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to >> be fairly neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 >> degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now >> fitted a heading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well >> following the pink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary >> concern. I really have no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way .. >> >> Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an >> entry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section >> 91.205. >> >> Cheers, John >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *From: Jeff B ** * >> >> *Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering >> if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IF R >> flight (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations t hat >> might mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking ab out >> it. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, * >> *-- Jeff * >> > ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 06:53:10 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re : IFR certification Pretty valuable pennies! Thx! Pete :) > On Jun 16, 2020, at 8:26 PM, Paul McAllister w rote: > > =EF=BB > Pete, for a while I did my practice currency this way. I could actually fl y an approach at 90 knots and still get it slow enough to get the gear out a nd land. The trouble with this was that you only needed the slightest distra ction and you would be joining the ranks of =9Cthose who have=9D > > The other challenge is that it was rare to break out in the clear, cloud b ottoms would be straggly and when you are at minimums you have to quickly de cide if the RVR is sufficient, you have enough of the environment in view an d the the runway will provide enough breaking action. > > To be honest I always found single pilot IFR really tough and during my br ief stint of professional flying I thought I had died and gone to heaven wit h 2 crew operations. > > Just my 2 cents worth. Cheers, Paul > >> On Tue, Jun 16, 2020 at 12:06 PM Pete wrote: >> Great write-up Paul, thx! >> >> Question, why not leave the gear up till minimums to keep the speed up? >> >>>> On Jun 16, 2020, at 12:46 PM, Paul McAllister wrote: >>>> >>> =EF=BB >>> Hi John, >>> >>> I hope you don't mind me offering a counter opinion. I didn't find my Eu ropa a very good IFR platform. It was okay but I always maintained high per sonal minimum, 600' on the ILS and 800' for non precision approaches. I liv e in the mid west of the US and icing was always a concern. While one should never fly into know icing conditions I had inadvertently picked up ice in o ther aircraft I have flown and although concerning the aircraft performed we ll enough to land it. Even then I new that all that had happened was "I got a way with it" >>> >>> I did catch a small skim of ice on the Europa once and the aircraft imme diately lost 20 knots and I was worried that it would just quit flying there and then! A flapless landing in a mono isn't possible and I was really (re ally) nervous lowing the gear. I know we can all say that we should avoid i cing conditions but I encountered unforcasted ice many times. Over the year s I got smarter at figuring out potential or possible conditions but I could never get comfortable. The other challenge is that its slow approach speed isn't an advantage for instrument approaches. You feel like you are hanging out on the ILS forever in wet moist clouds. >>> >>> I haven't flown my aircraft for some time but in latter years all my IFR flying was in VFR conditions. It is nice to be able to fly away from somewh ere crummy to somewhere nice, and I find the National Aerospace System (NAS) a delight to use. >>> >>> Just my 2 cents worth, and as they say "Your mileage may vary" >>> >>> Cheers, Paul >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 10:24 AM John Wigney wrote: >>>> Hi Jeff, >>>> >>>> There is a good link on this subject at https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraf t-building/intro-to-aircraft-building/frequently-asked-questions/equipping-a -homebuilt-for-ifr-operations >>>> >>>> I am not an IFR pilot but I have done 40 plus hours of training in my m onowheel. My instructor was very happy with the plane and called it "a good I FR platform". I chose not to take the check ride as I decided not to fly sin gle pilot IFR. A major reason for that is that I found the plane to be fairl y neutral on heading and I was not happy to find myself 10 to 15 degrees off course if I groped around in the back for something. I have now fitted a he ading autopilot driven by my Dynon D10A which works very well following the p ink line on my Garmin 430 so that addresses that primary concern. I really h ave no need for IFR and am happy to leave it that way. >>>> >>>> Anyway, I am not aware of any certification requirement apart from an e ntry in the logbook regarding compliance with 14 CFR Part 91, section 91.20 5. >>>> >>>> Cheers, John >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Jeff B >>>> >>>> Subject: Europa-List: IFR certification Good morning all, I'm wondering if someone out there has any information on certifying the Europa for IFR f light (in the USA). Is there a statement in the operating limitations that m ight mention this? I've a person interested in my bird who is asking about i t. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thank You, >>>> >>>> -- Jeff ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.