Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Matronics List Fund Raiser Postponed During 2020... (Matt Dralle)
2. 01:33 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Rick Moss)
3. 01:44 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank ()
4. 01:51 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (D McFadyean)
5. 02:23 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (clivesutton)
6. 07:58 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Monoman)
7. 08:56 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (clivesutton)
8. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
9. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (D McFadyean)
10. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (William Daniell)
11. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Tim Ward)
12. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Tim Ward)
13. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Kevin Challis)
14. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Matronics List Fund Raiser Postponed During 2020... |
Dear Listers,
Normally, in November I hold a List Fund Raiser where I ask Listers to make a Contribution
to support the operation and upkeep of these List resources.
In light of the happenings during this 2020 season, I have decided to postpone
the Fund Raiser this year and encourage members to focus on their families and
personal needs.
I want to thank everyone that has supported the Lists in the past. Despite the
uncertain times we're experiencing right now, I want to assure everyone that
I fully intend to continue supporting the Lists as I always have; with no anticipated
degradation in service levels.
Happy Holidays to all my friends around the world!
Matt Dralle
Matronics List Manager
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
I have precisely that system Richard (MGL FF1), although also connected to a red-cube
fuel flow meter, and it is superbly accurate.
Richard Wheelwright wrote:
> Why complicate things. There is no need.
>
> All you need to to get acupuncture fuel tank contents is MGL fule computer you dont have to connect to gps or a flow meter. It can be used as a simple fuel gauge. https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html (https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html)
>
>
> It is simply connected to a fuel float
> https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAxJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB (https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAxJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB)
>
>
> You simply add fuel at 5 x 11 Lt intervals and add it to the settings on the
fuel computer. First fill the reserve side if the tank first.
>
>
> 9 Lt. in reserve
> 5 X 11 Lts
> Total 64 Lts. Tank full
>
>
> The fuel computer now will display accurate fuel contents in 1 x 1 Lts intervals
>
>
> Job dun.
>
>
> Richard
>
>
> On 31 Oct 2020, at 16:00, Rick Moss wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece.
> >
> > He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple
on/off fuel valve.
> >
> > How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about
15 litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks,
I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not
using either leg of the tank.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042)
> >
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com[/url]
> >
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499135#499135
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Another advantage of a 'twin' tank is that it gives you options if your fuel filter
gets blocked - which has happened to me (on the ground at least).
Roddy Kesterton G-IKRK
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Rick Moss
Sent: 01 November 2020 08:32
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank
I have precisely that system Richard (MGL FF1), although also connected to a red-cube
fuel flow meter, and it is superbly accurate.
Richard Wheelwright wrote:
> Why complicate things. There is no need.
>
> All you need to to get acupuncture fuel tank contents is MGL fule
> computer you dont have to connect to gps or a flow meter. It can be
> used as a simple fuel gauge.
> https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html
> (https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html)
>
>
> It is simply connected to a fuel float
> https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid
> Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAx
> JXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB
> (https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid
> =Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeA
> xJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB)
>
>
> You simply add fuel at 5 x 11 Lt intervals and add it to the settings on the
fuel computer. First fill the reserve side if the tank first.
>
>
> 9 Lt. in reserve
> 5 X 11 Lts
> Total 64 Lts. Tank full
>
>
> The fuel computer now will display accurate fuel contents in 1 x 1 Lts
> intervals
>
>
> Job dun.
>
>
> Richard
>
>
> On 31 Oct 2020, at 16:00, Rick Moss wrote:
>
>
>
> >
> > I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece.
> >
> > He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple
on/off fuel valve.
> >
> > How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about
15 litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks,
I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not
using either leg of the tank.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042
> > (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042)
> >
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com[/url]
> >
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499135#499135
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
<<...He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple
on/off fuel valve....>>
That's the thing. How do you know (when you're down to 4 gallons with both sides
of the saddle full) whether there is 4 gallons in there or just 2 gallons (one
side full only)?
The same is also true to a lesser extent for the split system, but teeing both
together also risks introduction of air locks when one side becomes preferentially
empty (through spillover or the effect of the fuel return line, etc).
Duncan McF.
> On 31 October 2020 at 16:00 Rick Moss <Rkwmoss@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece.
>
> He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple on/off
fuel valve.
>
> How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about 15
litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks,
I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not
using either leg of the tank.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
I would echo Roddy's comment on this topic.
I can see the logic and simplicity benefits of connecting both sides of the tank
but i suggest that the safety case for being able to switch over to a 'different'
source of fuel - and more importantly, to a little-used fuel filter in the
case of an engine problem, trumps it.
For normal operations, I leave mine pretty much selected on the LH/Min lobe all
of the time and simply consider the RH lobe to be the emergency ~1/2hr of fuel.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499138#499138
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter
and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying
attitude?
Thanks
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Hello Monoman,
I have a Capacitance probe in the RH tank only that points a little outboard and
forwards from its installation hole to avoid the accomodation shape for the
tunnel in the tank shape. I checked its calibarion last year and was surprised
to find that the attitude made very little difference. I also find that the
calibration is only really valid for quantities below the vent hole in the upper
part of my probe - ie, the extended tank volume above ~45 litres does not
really register on my probe - i.e. it sees quantities above that as 'full' (which
is a bit useless). I hope useful. Clive
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499155#499155
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Yes. Although if you don't you will at least be erring on the safe side!
David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2020-11-01 15:57, Monoman wrote:
>
> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over
> the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate
> the flying attitude?
> Thanks
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
I calibrate in both positions (and have two sets of colour-coded marks), so that
I know how much is in there before takeoff.
Duncan McF.
> On 01 November 2020 at 15:57 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>
> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter
and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying
attitude?
> Thanks
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the
time(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine
stop while on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk> wrote:
>
> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over
> the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the
> flying attitude?
> Thanks
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Hi all,
Interesting discussion. My fuel indicator probe only goes down as far as the fuel
tank saddle. So when my gauge indicates zero, with a pre-warning, then I have
9.5 litres remaining on the Main tank (left) and 9.5L remaining in the Reserve
Tank which I take as 30 mins endurance in each to be conservative. When zero
indication occurs then I change straight away to the RESERVE TANK to be certain
it flows ok, then after 30 mins back to the MAIN TANK for 30 mins.
Has worked well in the past as one flight I was down to 7 litres left on landing!
Not a good look for an airline pilot, NOW RETIRED with Early retirement and
COVID 19 saga. The financial meltdown in the Airline industry! A changed world.
Cheers,
Tim
Sent from my iPhone
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
CHRISTCHURCH 8052
Hom 03315166
> On 2/11/2020, at 07:50, D McFadyean <ami-mcfadyean@talktalk.net> wrote:
>
>
> I calibrate in both positions (and have two sets of colour-coded marks), so that
I know how much is in there before takeoff.
>
> Duncan McF.
>> On 01 November 2020 at 15:57 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the
winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
>> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying
attitude?
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
William,
On the ground the other day while doing a trial engine run on the ground, af
ter installation of my engine I forgot to turn on the fuel tap. Result, cont
inued for 45secs, very rough running and vibrating and then silence! You wil
l certainly know and the first thing to check is fuel tap position!
Tim
Sent from my iPhone
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
CHRISTCHURCH 8052
Hom 03315166
> On 2/11/2020, at 10:26, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>
> =EF=BB
> I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the t
ime(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop w
hile on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting.
>
>
>
> William Daniell
> +1 786 878 0246
>
>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over t
he winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
>> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate th
e flying attitude?
>> Thanks
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ==========
>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matro
nics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> ==========
>> FORUMS -
>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> WIKI -
>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>> ==========
>> b Site -
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/
contribution
>> ==========
>>
>>
>>
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Runs rough plenty of time to change over.
Kevin Challis
G ODJG
> On 1 Nov 2020, at 21:47, Tim Ward <ward.t@xtra.co.nz> wrote:
>
> =EF=BBWilliam,
> On the ground the other day while doing a trial engine run on the ground, a
fter installation of my engine I forgot to turn on the fuel tap. Result, con
tinued for 45secs, very rough running and vibrating and then silence! You wi
ll certainly know and the first thing to check is fuel tap position!
> Tim
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> Tim Ward
> 12 Waiwetu Street
> Fendalton
> CHRISTCHURCH 8052
> Hom 03315166
>
>>> On 2/11/2020, at 10:26, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>>>
>> =EF=BB
>> I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the t
ime(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop w
hile on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting.
>>
>>
>>
>> William Daniell
>> +1 786 878 0246
>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over t
he winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
>>> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate t
he flying attitude?
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ==========
>>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matr
onics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>>> ==========
>>> FORUMS -
>>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> WIKI -
>>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
>>> ==========
>>> b Site -
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com
/contribution
>>> ==========
>>>
>>>
>>>
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank |
Will,
Two things:
I never had a total fuel delivery failure due to a clogged filter using the
two stock Purolator filters supplied in the kit since Mod27 (1996 vintage)
. Of course I check my filters every 25 hour oil change/inspection per my
mx manual.
I believe in redundancy, so I use an easy change fuel filter on the main an
d reserve sides. I also use the supplied fuel selector (although I prefer t
he Andair which wasn=92t available when my fuel system was designed). I ta
ke no chances with assured fuel delivery. I find the Europa fuel system po
st Mod 33 (water drains) to be sound and reliable so I haven=92t done more
than change the tank fitting style once in a while to suite a fuel drain in
stall.
History: I=92ve only gotten bad gas twice in 50 years of flying. In the E
uropa I=92ve gotten bad gas in Louisiana and during climb it took a bit of
time and then engine Manifold Pressure dropped and I couldn=92t maintain 50
00RPM on the Airmaster, I turned on the aux pump and it cleared up, then at
cruise with the aux pump still on, the engine sagged again a few minutes l
ater. I switched to the reserve side and it ran fine. I landed in Texas a
bout 30 minutes later to check and suspected a fuel pump failing or filters
. On inspection the main side fuel filter was full of white diatomite like
material from the previous FBOs fuel. The reserve side was also quite dir
ty. I called the Louisiana FBO and informed him. He got back with me and
his fuel system had just been cleaned by a contractor and the 0.5 micron fi
nal filter was installed improperly. He wanted to pay me for the trouble.
I get a free lunch if I ever fly through Hammond Louisiana again for the r
est of my life. Too bad he=92s retired now.
I always carry a spare filter ready to go. I have quick change fuel discon
nects on either end of my filter under my seat which made for a quick chang
e simply by removing the seat cushion and ply support. Since I only had on
e spare filter on hand, I flushed the reserve side filter out with clean ga
s and reinstalled it. I pressed on a short way to my final stop and my fri
end brought some fuel cans to the airport and I flushed the tanks by simply
using the aircraft fuel pumps to cycle the gas through my filters, shaking
the plane and pointing the nose down a bit and pumped through a short hose
attached to the feed line out into the cans then back into the tank until
the filters were clean. After a 30 gallon flush, all was clean enough with
out pulling the fuel bosses off. I flew home from Kansas checking my fuel
at all three stops and although there was a tiny amount of white powder, th
ere was nothing worth cleaning out enroute. I checked my carbs and tank on
my annual and the reserve side of the tank still had a minor amount of the
white filter material. Through this minor ordeal, there was nothing in the
carb float bowls. So no debris entered my carbs.
Lessons:
1. Carry a spare filter (or two) and know how to quickly change the filt
ers without defueling.
2. Clear filters are best for inspections (my opinion). Mr. Gasket filt
er for the Europa supplied filter insert is 5 microns or .00002 inches.
Note: Minimum gascolators micron required by the Rotax install manual is .
1mm or .004 inches. This is quite large at 100 microns (Andair gascolator
is 70 microns). You can see dirt that size as it is about Portland cement
sized material. That sized material you can see easily in your float bowls
also. Hence I use a fine filter rather than gascolators. Unfortunately,
some countries require gascolators. Choose wisely.
Also note: Andair was the only experimental gascolator that can be used pr
ior to and after fuel pumps as it seals very well. Cheap gascolators must
have some fuel head and will leak air under suction. I inspected a plane o
nce with the gascolator about 6 inches off the floor behind the tank. As t
he main fuel dropped down to the saddle (below 5 gallons), the gascolators
began to leak air from the engine fuel pump suction. Switching tanks did n
othing as there was insufficient head to get from the tank up to the gascol
ators. Since the fuel pump had little suction, it would not pull fuel thro
ugh the leaky gascolator. I tilted the tail down, the fuel ran aft to the
gascolator and the aux pump was able to pull fuel to the engine. It took a
while to find that bit of info out. Gascolators should be the lowest poin
t in the fuel system, and at least even with the bottom of the tank and be
able to pull suction. Later, when the gascolator was replaced with an Anda
ir, it was moved to the cowl bottom, after the aux pump and prior to the en
gine pump, lines were covered with fire sleeve, and ample air vented to pre
vent potential vapor lock, it never gave me another problem in flight test.
Cardinal rule, mount the gascolators(s) lower or as low as the bottom of
the tank and use a gascolators rated to pull a vacuum.
1. The clear Purolator filter can loosen and leak unfortunately. Alway
s tighten to snug, then after fuel has been in it for a while give it anoth
er =BD turn. I wait overnight with a paper towel under it on annual change
out of the filter. I also have a drain in my seat pan if it leaks.
2. Consider a filtered fuel funnel (Mr. Funnel) if concerned about fuel
quality. It slows refueling on cross country though, but not by much. Min
e is a 5 gallon per minute flow rate Mr. Funnel. Which is about half of wh
at the plane will fuel at from the pump on low flow. Micron rating is abou
t 5-6. It is very good at stopping water with a trough for large particles
and the filter stops water. (I also have found it is really getting hard
to hold a 5 gallon bowser up for that first half minute of fueling the funn
el.)
3. If paranoid about dirty fuel and using auto fuel (10 micron filter is
common for auto pumps) there are filters that can hook to the pump from th
e nozzle to the tank but the flow rate is terrible. Auto fuel pump filter
standards are better than your gascolator screen so a car gas pump isn=92t
all that bad from when purchased from a quality gas station. If concerned
use a Mr. Funnel.
Best regards from the Department of Redundant Redundancy.
Bud Yerly
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Window
s 10
From: William Daniell<mailto:wdaniell.longport@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2020 4:22 PM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank
I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the ti
me(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop
while on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman <mike@nyumba.co.uk<mailto:mike@nyumba.co
.uk>> wrote:
@nyumba.co.uk>>
Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the
winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter.
My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the
flying attitude?
Thanks
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