---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sun 11/01/20: 14 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:08 AM - Matronics List Fund Raiser Postponed During 2020... (Matt Dralle) 2. 01:33 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Rick Moss) 3. 01:44 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank () 4. 01:51 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (D McFadyean) 5. 02:23 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (clivesutton) 6. 07:58 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Monoman) 7. 08:56 AM - Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (clivesutton) 8. 09:13 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 9. 10:42 AM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (D McFadyean) 10. 01:18 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (William Daniell) 11. 01:39 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Tim Ward) 12. 01:44 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Tim Ward) 13. 02:06 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Kevin Challis) 14. 06:54 PM - Re: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank (Bud Yerly) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:08:47 AM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Matronics List Fund Raiser Postponed During 2020... Dear Listers, Normally, in November I hold a List Fund Raiser where I ask Listers to make a Contribution to support the operation and upkeep of these List resources. In light of the happenings during this 2020 season, I have decided to postpone the Fund Raiser this year and encourage members to focus on their families and personal needs. I want to thank everyone that has supported the Lists in the past. Despite the uncertain times we're experiencing right now, I want to assure everyone that I fully intend to continue supporting the Lists as I always have; with no anticipated degradation in service levels. Happy Holidays to all my friends around the world! Matt Dralle Matronics List Manager ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:33:08 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank From: "Rick Moss" I have precisely that system Richard (MGL FF1), although also connected to a red-cube fuel flow meter, and it is superbly accurate. Richard Wheelwright wrote: > Why complicate things. There is no need. > > All you need to to get acupuncture fuel tank contents is MGL fule computer you dont have to connect to gps or a flow meter. It can be used as a simple fuel gauge. https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html (https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html) > > > It is simply connected to a fuel float > https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAxJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB (https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid=Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAxJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB) > > > You simply add fuel at 5 x 11 Lt intervals and add it to the settings on the fuel computer. First fill the reserve side if the tank first. > > > 9 Lt. in reserve > 5 X 11 Lts > Total 64 Lts. Tank full > > > The fuel computer now will display accurate fuel contents in 1 x 1 Lts intervals > > > Job dun. > > > Richard > > > On 31 Oct 2020, at 16:00, Rick Moss wrote: > > > > > > > I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece. > > > > He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple on/off fuel valve. > > > > How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about 15 litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks, I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not using either leg of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042 (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042) > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com[/url] > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499135#499135 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:58 AM PST US From: Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank Another advantage of a 'twin' tank is that it gives you options if your fuel filter gets blocked - which has happened to me (on the ground at least). Roddy Kesterton G-IKRK -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of Rick Moss Sent: 01 November 2020 08:32 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank I have precisely that system Richard (MGL FF1), although also connected to a red-cube fuel flow meter, and it is superbly accurate. Richard Wheelwright wrote: > Why complicate things. There is no need. > > All you need to to get acupuncture fuel tank contents is MGL fule > computer you dont have to connect to gps or a flow meter. It can be > used as a simple fuel gauge. > https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html > (https://www.aeroshop.eu/en/mgl-velocity-asx-2.html) > > > It is simply connected to a fuel float > https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid > Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeAx > JXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB > (https://www.floatyourboat.co.uk/wema-fuel-and-water-sender-sae5?gclid > =Cj0KCQjwlvT8BRDeARIsAACRFiU6aaAbrNI-JWonDYMcQvn_D8bOog5yjK2uNjY-7tDeA > xJXjsDbq6gaAgilEALw_wcB) > > > You simply add fuel at 5 x 11 Lt intervals and add it to the settings on the fuel computer. First fill the reserve side if the tank first. > > > 9 Lt. in reserve > 5 X 11 Lts > Total 64 Lts. Tank full > > > The fuel computer now will display accurate fuel contents in 1 x 1 Lts > intervals > > > Job dun. > > > Richard > > > On 31 Oct 2020, at 16:00, Rick Moss wrote: > > > > > > > I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece. > > > > He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple on/off fuel valve. > > > > How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about 15 litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks, I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not using either leg of the tank. > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042 > > (http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042) > > > > > > http://forums.matronics.com[/url] > > Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499135#499135 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:43 AM PST US From: D McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank <<...He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple on/off fuel valve....>> That's the thing. How do you know (when you're down to 4 gallons with both sides of the saddle full) whether there is 4 gallons in there or just 2 gallons (one side full only)? The same is also true to a lesser extent for the split system, but teeing both together also risks introduction of air locks when one side becomes preferentially empty (through spillover or the effect of the fuel return line, etc). Duncan McF. > On 31 October 2020 at 16:00 Rick Moss wrote: > > > > I have a friend who has linked the 2 sides of the tank with a Y-piece. > > He is very much happier to have a nicely calibrated fuel gauge and a simple on/off fuel valve. > > How low are you willing to run any single tank? For me, the answer is about 15 litres. Less that that, and Im getting nervous. With (effectively) 2 tanks, I dont know how to decide at what point to change the feed side; so end up not using either leg of the tank. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499042#499042 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 02:23:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank From: "clivesutton" I would echo Roddy's comment on this topic. I can see the logic and simplicity benefits of connecting both sides of the tank but i suggest that the safety case for being able to switch over to a 'different' source of fuel - and more importantly, to a little-used fuel filter in the case of an engine problem, trumps it. For normal operations, I leave mine pretty much selected on the LH/Min lobe all of the time and simply consider the RH lobe to be the emergency ~1/2hr of fuel. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499138#499138 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:58:17 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank From: "Monoman" Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying attitude? Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:56:51 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank From: "clivesutton" Hello Monoman, I have a Capacitance probe in the RH tank only that points a little outboard and forwards from its installation hole to avoid the accomodation shape for the tunnel in the tank shape. I checked its calibarion last year and was surprised to find that the attitude made very little difference. I also find that the calibration is only really valid for quantities below the vent hole in the upper part of my probe - ie, the extended tank volume above ~45 litres does not really register on my probe - i.e. it sees quantities above that as 'full' (which is a bit useless). I hope useful. Clive Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499155#499155 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:13:46 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank Yes. Although if you don't you will at least be erring on the safe side! David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2020-11-01 15:57, Monoman wrote: > > Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over > the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. > My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate > the flying attitude? > Thanks > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:29 AM PST US From: D McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank I calibrate in both positions (and have two sets of colour-coded marks), so that I know how much is in there before takeoff. Duncan McF. > On 01 November 2020 at 15:57 Monoman wrote: > > > > Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. > My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying attitude? > Thanks > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:18:29 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the time(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop while on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting. William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman wrote: > > Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over > the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. > My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the > flying attitude? > Thanks > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 > > ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 01:39:11 PM PST US Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank From: Tim Ward Hi all, Interesting discussion. My fuel indicator probe only goes down as far as the fuel tank saddle. So when my gauge indicates zero, with a pre-warning, then I have 9.5 litres remaining on the Main tank (left) and 9.5L remaining in the Reserve Tank which I take as 30 mins endurance in each to be conservative. When zero indication occurs then I change straight away to the RESERVE TANK to be certain it flows ok, then after 30 mins back to the MAIN TANK for 30 mins. Has worked well in the past as one flight I was down to 7 litres left on landing! Not a good look for an airline pilot, NOW RETIRED with Early retirement and COVID 19 saga. The financial meltdown in the Airline industry! A changed world. Cheers, Tim Sent from my iPhone Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Hom 03315166 > On 2/11/2020, at 07:50, D McFadyean wrote: > > > I calibrate in both positions (and have two sets of colour-coded marks), so that I know how much is in there before takeoff. > > Duncan McF. >> On 01 November 2020 at 15:57 Monoman wrote: >> >> >> >> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. >> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying attitude? >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 01:44:52 PM PST US From: Tim Ward Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank William, On the ground the other day while doing a trial engine run on the ground, af ter installation of my engine I forgot to turn on the fuel tap. Result, cont inued for 45secs, very rough running and vibrating and then silence! You wil l certainly know and the first thing to check is fuel tap position! Tim Sent from my iPhone Tim Ward 12 Waiwetu Street Fendalton CHRISTCHURCH 8052 Hom 03315166 > On 2/11/2020, at 10:26, William Daniell wrot e: > > =EF=BB > I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the t ime(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop w hile on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting. > > > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman wrote: >> >> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over t he winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. >> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate th e flying attitude? >> Thanks >> >> >> >> >> Read this topic online here: >> >> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ========== >> pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matro nics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >> ========== >> FORUMS - >> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >> ========== >> WIKI - >> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >> ========== >> b Site - >> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/ contribution >> ========== >> >> >> ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 02:06:55 PM PST US From: Kevin Challis Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank Runs rough plenty of time to change over. Kevin Challis G ODJG > On 1 Nov 2020, at 21:47, Tim Ward wrote: > > =EF=BBWilliam, > On the ground the other day while doing a trial engine run on the ground, a fter installation of my engine I forgot to turn on the fuel tap. Result, con tinued for 45secs, very rough running and vibrating and then silence! You wi ll certainly know and the first thing to check is fuel tap position! > Tim > > Sent from my iPhone > > Tim Ward > 12 Waiwetu Street > Fendalton > CHRISTCHURCH 8052 > Hom 03315166 > >>> On 2/11/2020, at 10:26, William Daniell wr ote: >>> >> =EF=BB >> I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the t ime(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop w hile on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting. >> >> >> >> William Daniell >> +1 786 878 0246 >> >>> On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman wrote: >>> >>> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over t he winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. >>> My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate t he flying attitude? >>> Thanks >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ========== >>> pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matr onics.com/Navigator?Europa-List >>> ========== >>> FORUMS - >>> eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> WIKI - >>> errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com >>> ========== >>> b Site - >>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin. >>> rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com /contribution >>> ========== >>> >>> >>> ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 06:54:10 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank Will, Two things: I never had a total fuel delivery failure due to a clogged filter using the two stock Purolator filters supplied in the kit since Mod27 (1996 vintage) . Of course I check my filters every 25 hour oil change/inspection per my mx manual. I believe in redundancy, so I use an easy change fuel filter on the main an d reserve sides. I also use the supplied fuel selector (although I prefer t he Andair which wasn=92t available when my fuel system was designed). I ta ke no chances with assured fuel delivery. I find the Europa fuel system po st Mod 33 (water drains) to be sound and reliable so I haven=92t done more than change the tank fitting style once in a while to suite a fuel drain in stall. History: I=92ve only gotten bad gas twice in 50 years of flying. In the E uropa I=92ve gotten bad gas in Louisiana and during climb it took a bit of time and then engine Manifold Pressure dropped and I couldn=92t maintain 50 00RPM on the Airmaster, I turned on the aux pump and it cleared up, then at cruise with the aux pump still on, the engine sagged again a few minutes l ater. I switched to the reserve side and it ran fine. I landed in Texas a bout 30 minutes later to check and suspected a fuel pump failing or filters . On inspection the main side fuel filter was full of white diatomite like material from the previous FBOs fuel. The reserve side was also quite dir ty. I called the Louisiana FBO and informed him. He got back with me and his fuel system had just been cleaned by a contractor and the 0.5 micron fi nal filter was installed improperly. He wanted to pay me for the trouble. I get a free lunch if I ever fly through Hammond Louisiana again for the r est of my life. Too bad he=92s retired now. I always carry a spare filter ready to go. I have quick change fuel discon nects on either end of my filter under my seat which made for a quick chang e simply by removing the seat cushion and ply support. Since I only had on e spare filter on hand, I flushed the reserve side filter out with clean ga s and reinstalled it. I pressed on a short way to my final stop and my fri end brought some fuel cans to the airport and I flushed the tanks by simply using the aircraft fuel pumps to cycle the gas through my filters, shaking the plane and pointing the nose down a bit and pumped through a short hose attached to the feed line out into the cans then back into the tank until the filters were clean. After a 30 gallon flush, all was clean enough with out pulling the fuel bosses off. I flew home from Kansas checking my fuel at all three stops and although there was a tiny amount of white powder, th ere was nothing worth cleaning out enroute. I checked my carbs and tank on my annual and the reserve side of the tank still had a minor amount of the white filter material. Through this minor ordeal, there was nothing in the carb float bowls. So no debris entered my carbs. Lessons: 1. Carry a spare filter (or two) and know how to quickly change the filt ers without defueling. 2. Clear filters are best for inspections (my opinion). Mr. Gasket filt er for the Europa supplied filter insert is 5 microns or .00002 inches. Note: Minimum gascolators micron required by the Rotax install manual is . 1mm or .004 inches. This is quite large at 100 microns (Andair gascolator is 70 microns). You can see dirt that size as it is about Portland cement sized material. That sized material you can see easily in your float bowls also. Hence I use a fine filter rather than gascolators. Unfortunately, some countries require gascolators. Choose wisely. Also note: Andair was the only experimental gascolator that can be used pr ior to and after fuel pumps as it seals very well. Cheap gascolators must have some fuel head and will leak air under suction. I inspected a plane o nce with the gascolator about 6 inches off the floor behind the tank. As t he main fuel dropped down to the saddle (below 5 gallons), the gascolators began to leak air from the engine fuel pump suction. Switching tanks did n othing as there was insufficient head to get from the tank up to the gascol ators. Since the fuel pump had little suction, it would not pull fuel thro ugh the leaky gascolator. I tilted the tail down, the fuel ran aft to the gascolator and the aux pump was able to pull fuel to the engine. It took a while to find that bit of info out. Gascolators should be the lowest poin t in the fuel system, and at least even with the bottom of the tank and be able to pull suction. Later, when the gascolator was replaced with an Anda ir, it was moved to the cowl bottom, after the aux pump and prior to the en gine pump, lines were covered with fire sleeve, and ample air vented to pre vent potential vapor lock, it never gave me another problem in flight test. Cardinal rule, mount the gascolators(s) lower or as low as the bottom of the tank and use a gascolators rated to pull a vacuum. 1. The clear Purolator filter can loosen and leak unfortunately. Alway s tighten to snug, then after fuel has been in it for a while give it anoth er =BD turn. I wait overnight with a paper towel under it on annual change out of the filter. I also have a drain in my seat pan if it leaks. 2. Consider a filtered fuel funnel (Mr. Funnel) if concerned about fuel quality. It slows refueling on cross country though, but not by much. Min e is a 5 gallon per minute flow rate Mr. Funnel. Which is about half of wh at the plane will fuel at from the pump on low flow. Micron rating is abou t 5-6. It is very good at stopping water with a trough for large particles and the filter stops water. (I also have found it is really getting hard to hold a 5 gallon bowser up for that first half minute of fueling the funn el.) 3. If paranoid about dirty fuel and using auto fuel (10 micron filter is common for auto pumps) there are filters that can hook to the pump from th e nozzle to the tank but the flow rate is terrible. Auto fuel pump filter standards are better than your gascolator screen so a car gas pump isn=92t all that bad from when purchased from a quality gas station. If concerned use a Mr. Funnel. Best regards from the Department of Redundant Redundancy. Bud Yerly Sent from Mail for Window s 10 From: William Daniell Sent: Sunday, November 1, 2020 4:22 PM Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Connecting both sides of the fuel tank I too use the two tanks as a single tank with both fuel cocks on all the ti me(i have two separate taps). I wonder if anyone has had the engine stop while on the main. I dare say it's quite exciting. William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Sun, Nov 1, 2020, 11:02 Monoman > wrote: @nyumba.co.uk>> Reading this thread has prompted me to calibrate my contents gauge over the winter and maybe invest in a red cube flowmeter. My question is while calibrating should I jack the tail to approximate the flying attitude? Thanks Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=499151#499151 pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matroni cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List FORUMS - eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com WIKI - errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com b Site - -Matt Dralle, List Admin. rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/co ntribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.