---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 03/09/21: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:43 AM - Re: Mod60 (Eoin Maguire) 2. 04:48 AM - Re: Mod60 (Pete) 3. 07:04 AM - 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses (William Daniell) 4. 08:02 AM - Re: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses (Pete) 5. 09:00 AM - Re: Mod60 (h&jeuropa) 6. 09:03 AM - Re: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses (h&jeuropa) 7. 09:07 AM - Re: Mod60 (h&jeuropa) 8. 09:44 AM - Re: Re: Mod60 (Pete) 9. 10:16 AM - Re: Re: Mod60 (William Daniell) 10. 10:18 AM - Re: Re: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses (William Daniell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:43:59 AM PST US From: Eoin Maguire Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod60 SGkgYWxsDQoNClRoYW5rcyBmb3IgdGhlIGlucHV0LCBoYXMgYW55b25lIGFjdHVhbGx5IGNvbXBs ZXRlZCBpdCwgYW5kIGhhZCBhIHBvc2l0aXZlIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgaW5zdGFsbGluZyBpdCBhbmQg dXNpbmcgaXQ/DQoNClNpZ2h0IGdhdWdlIGFuZCBmbGlnaHQgdGltZSB3b3JrIG9rLi4uYnV0IHdl IGhhdmUgYSBncm91cCBvZiA1IGZseWluZyB0aGUgYWlyY3JhZnQgYW5kIHdlIGZpbmQgaXQgY2Fu IGJlIGEgdG91Y2ggb2ZmLiBNYWlubHkgd2UgdXNlIGZsaWdodCB0aW1lIGFzIGEgYmV0dGVyIGdh dWdlIChmdWVsIGF0IHN0YXJ0LSBmdWVsIHVzZWQpLi4uYnV0IGEgbW9yZSByZWxpYWJsZSBzeXN0 ZW0gd291bGQgYmUgYmV0dGVyLg0KDQpXZSBoYXZlIHRoZSBnYXVnZSBhbmQgYXMgcGFydCBvZiB0 aGUga2l0IHdlIGJvdWdodCAsIHdvdWxkIHByZWZlciBub3QgdG8gaGF2ZSB0byBpbnZlc3QgaW4g YW55IG1vcmUgd2UgY2FuIGF2b2lkIGl0LCB3ZSBoYXZlIHNwZW5kIGEgc2lnbmlmaWNhbnQgc3Vt IHRoaXMgd2ludGVyIChlbmdpbmUsIGFuZGFpciBmdWVsIHZhbHZlLCB0eXJlcywgZnVlbCBwdW1w LCBob3NlIHJlcGxhY2VtZW50IGV0YykuLi5zYXlpbmcgYWxsIHRoYXQsIGlmIHRoZSBmbG9hdCBn YXVnZSBpcyBhIHRlcnJpYmxlIGlkZWEgSeKAmXZlIG5vIHByb2JsZW0gbGVhdmluZyBpdCBhbmQg c3RpY2tpbmcgd2l0aCB0aGUgc2lnaHQgZ2F1Z2UgYW5kIG1hdGhzICENCg0KS2luZCBSZWdhcmRz DQpFb2luDQoNCg0KT24gOCBNYXIgMjAyMSwgYXQgMjI6MDksIFBldGUgWnV0IDxwZXRlcnpAenV0 cmFzb2Z0LmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQoNCu+7vw0KSSBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIG5vdCBwdW5jaGluZyBhbnkg aG9sZXMgaW4gdGhlIHRhbmsuLi4uLiBhbmQgd2h5IEkgcmVhbGx5IGxpa2UgdGhlIHdlbGwtZnVu Y3Rpb25pbmcgYmVsaXRlIHByZXNzdXJlIHByb2JlDQpjaGVlcnMsDQpQZXRlDQoNCk9uIE1vbiwg TWFyIDgsIDIwMjEgYXQgNDo1NiBQTSBXaWxsaWFtIERhbmllbGwgPHdkYW5pZWxsLmxvbmdwb3J0 QGdtYWlsLmNvbTxtYWlsdG86d2RhbmllbGwubG9uZ3BvcnRAZ21haWwuY29tPj4gd3JvdGU6DQpJ IHB1dCBhIGZ1ZWwgc2VuZGVyIGluIGFuZCBteSBhZHZpY2UgaXMgZG9udCBkbyBpdC4NCg0KSW1v IHRoZSBzaWdodCBnYXVnZSBpcyBtb3JlIHRoYW4gYWRlcXVhdGUuICBJbmZhY3QgaSB0ZW5kIHRv IHBheSBtb3JlIGF0dGVudGlvbiB0byBteSBmbGlnaHQgdGltZSB0aGF0IHRoZSBmdWVsIGdhdWdl Lg0KDQpBbHNvIGFzIGhhcHBlbmVkIHRvIG1lLCBldmVudHVhbGx5IHRoZSBzZWFsIHdpbGwgY3J5 c3RhbGl6ZSBhbmQgdGhlIHRhbmsgbGVha3MuICAgIFJlcGxhY2luZyBpdCBpcyBhIGJ1Z2dlciBv ZiBhIGpvYi4NCg0KV2lsbA0KDQpXaWxsaWFtIERhbmllbGwNCisxIDc4NiA4NzggMDI0Ng0KDQpP biBNb24sIE1hciA4LCAyMDIxLCAxNjozMSBFb2luIE1hZ3VpcmUgPEVvaW5NYWd1aXJlQGhvdG1h aWwuY29tPG1haWx0bzpFb2luTWFndWlyZUBob3RtYWlsLmNvbT4+IHdyb3RlOg0KSGkgYWxsDQoN CkN1cmlvdXMgaGFzIGFueW9uZSBwaG90b3Mgb3IgYWR2aXNlIG9uIG1vZCA2MCBmbG9hdCBnYXVn ZSBpbnN0YWxsYXRpb24gb24gYSBwcmUgaW5zdGFsbGVkIHRhbmsuIFJlYWRpbmcgdGhlIG1vZCBp dCBsb29rcyBsaWtlIGZ1ZWwgc2VuZGVyIGlzIGZpdHRlZCBpbiB0aGUgaGVhZHNldCBsb2NrZXIu Li4ud2hpY2ggd291bGQgYmUgY2hhbGxlbmdpbmcgdG8gc2F5IHRoZSBsZWFzdCA/DQoNCkFueSB0 aXBzIC8gdHJpY2tzIGZyb20gYW55b25lIHRoYXQgaGFzIGl0IGRvbiwgaXMgdGhlcmUgYW55IGxv Y2F0aW9uIHdoZXJlIHRoZSBzZW5kZXIgYmUgZml0dGVkIGp1c3Qgb3V0c2lkZSBvZiB0aGUgaGVh ZHNldCBsb2NrZXIgKHRvd2FyZHMgdG8gY2VudHJlbGluZSkNCg0KS2luZCBSZWdhcmRzDQpFb2lu DQoNCkdldCBPdXRsb29rIGZvciBpT1M8aHR0cHM6Ly9lbWVhMDEuc2FmZWxpbmtzLnByb3RlY3Rp b24ub3V0bG9vay5jb20vP3VybD1odHRwcyUzQSUyRiUyRmFrYS5tcyUyRm8wdWtlZiZkYXRhPTA0 JTdDMDElN0MlN0MwYTkwZThkYmEwYTY0MTMyYTc3MjA4ZDhlMjdlYzUwOCU3Qzg0ZGY5ZTdmZTlm NjQwYWZiNDM1YWFhYWFhYWFhYWFhJTdDMSU3QzAlN0M2Mzc1MDgzODE0MDQ5NjAwNTclN0NVbmtu b3duJTdDVFdGcGJHWnNiM2Q4ZXlKV0lqb2lNQzR3TGpBd01EQWlMQ0pRSWpvaVYybHVNeklpTENK QlRpSTZJazFoYVd3aUxDSlhWQ0k2TW4wJTNEJTdDMTAwMCZzZGF0YT1oY2ZmVEE0ZmpFNUNwMVh5 dUNaSU9nTUkxNDN2SG9uR3N2TWJ4bmhVNlc4JTNEJnJlc2VydmVkPTA+DQo ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:48:33 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Mod60 In my hummel i reworked Belites to fit, in the europa i rolled my own led, but any 0-5v will do. > On Mar 8, 2021, at 11:08 PM, Kingsley Hurst wrote: > > > Pete, > > Looks good . . . . . What sort of gauge did you use and approx cost please? > > Also, does anyone know if there is such a thing as clear tubing that is fuel PROOF and stays transparent for long term please? > > Thanks > Kingsley in Oz. > > > >> On 09.03.21 7:41 am, Pete Zut wrote: >> I'd recommend a non-intrusive gauge: >> https://www.aircraftspruce.ca/catalog/inpages/belitefuel10-05866.php?clickkey=1345778 >> >> I have one on my Hummelbird, and am in process of installing another on my Europa. The deep Europa tank makes for accurate operation. Just install at the fuel drain near the tank outlet. >> >> Output is a simple 0-5V, and calibration is at 0,1/4,1/2,3/4,and full. >> >> I did need to install a second tank pitot (vent), but plummed to the static-side of the pressure transducer (epoxied a small pipe over the vent hole), to eliminate low readings at speed. Works a treat. >> >> Cheers, >> Pete >> > > > > ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 07:04:58 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Europa-List: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses So Im not quite there yet but I am coming up on the 5 year rubber replacement. Its passed incredibly fast. Can anyone suggest the appropriate source in the US for the 1" fuel resistant hose for the fuel tank bosses? Many thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:02:49 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses Also following :) -Pete > On Mar 9, 2021, at 10:13 AM, William Daniell wrote: > > =EF=BB > So Im not quite there yet but I am coming up on the 5 year rubber replacem ent. Its passed incredibly fast. > > Can anyone suggest the appropriate source in the US for the 1" fuel resist ant hose for the fuel tank bosses? > > Many thanks > > Will > > > William Daniell > LONGPORT > +1 786 878 0246 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 09:00:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod60 From: "h&jeuropa" Pete, The problem with the BeLite probe is that it is not a differential pressure transducer. The tank vent faces into the airstream and pressurizes the tank. The amount of pressure varies with airspeed. While the amount of pressure from the vent is small, the weight of fuel is also quite small. This will affect the calibration. I have been using this method of measuring fuel level for many years. I started with the system Tony K from NZ published around 2000. Tony specified a differential pressure transducer. Over the years I have upgraded with newer transducers. After one of my upgrades I couldn't figure out why the calibration in flight was different than that on the ground until I realized about the vent pressure. Changing to a differential transducer solved the problem. I am currently using MPXV4006DP transducers. Since they are not rated for fuel, I use a loop of tubing to force a column of air between the transducer and the liquid. I agree with Will Daniell, having a tank sensor is not terribly useful. Since the Rotax only uses about 5 gph, you need accuracy of 1 gal to judge 12 minute endurance. That's difficult. The better solution is to use the "main" tank and as it gets low, monitor fuel pressure. When fuel pressure starts to drop, switch tanks. You can easily do this, especially with an EFIS, and the engine won't miss a beat. Then you have the 3 gal in the reserve side, roughly 30 minutes to land. As always, just my opinion and experience. Jim Butcher Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500907#500907 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:03:41 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses From: "h&jeuropa" We just use 1" rubber automotive hose since fuel never touches it. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500908#500908 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:07:22 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mod60 From: "h&jeuropa" Kingsley, Tygon SE200 has a liner that is not affected by gasoline. Unfortunately, if you bend or kink the tubing, the liner will be damaged. For our sight gauge, we use SE200 that we then insert into clear plastic tubing to protect the SE200. It works well and has been in service for over 10 years. Jim & Heather Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500910#500910 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 09:44:10 AM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod60 =EF=BBAs per my original reply, i added an equivalent pitot feeding the s tatic port of the belite sensor on both aircraft. Easypeasy and works great. Fuel rated sensor. Quite accurate. Satisfied with both. Fwiw, Cheers, Pete :-) > On Mar 9, 2021, at 12:09 PM, h&jeuropa wrote: > .net> > > Pete, > > The problem with the BeLite probe is that it is not a differential pressur e transducer. The tank vent faces into the airstream and pressurizes the ta nk. The amount of pressure varies with airspeed. While the amount of press ure from the vent is small, the weight of fuel is also quite small. This wil l affect the calibration. > > I have been using this method of measuring fuel level for many years. I s tarted with the system Tony K from NZ published around 2000. Tony specified a differential pressure transducer. Over the years I have upgraded with ne wer transducers. After one of my upgrades I couldn't figure out why the cal ibration in flight was different than that on the ground until I realized ab out the vent pressure. Changing to a differential transducer solved the pro blem. I am currently using MPXV4006DP transducers. Since they are not rate d for fuel, I use a loop of tubing to force a column of air between the tran sducer and the liquid. > > I agree with Will Daniell, having a tank sensor is not terribly useful. S ince the Rotax only uses about 5 gph, you need accuracy of 1 gal to judge 12 minute endurance. That's difficult. The better solution is to use the "m ain" tank and as it gets low, monitor fuel pressure. When fuel pressure sta rts to drop, switch tanks. You can easily do this, especially with an EFIS, and the engine won't miss a beat. Then you have the 3 gal in the reserve s ide, roughly 30 minutes to land. > > As always, just my opinion and experience. > > Jim Butcher > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500907#500907 > > > > > > ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ========================== ========= ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 10:16:31 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Mod60 AND....btw you can sort of make the endurance problem go away with an auxiliary tank. Then you have 5 hours which is definitely more than I want to spend in a Europa and far more endurance than my internal tank. Colombia to USA flew two up with the main and aux tank full plus ipads spare radio, tools and clothes at about 50lbs over MTOW and well within W&B. Only on the Medellin Panama leg did we come close 3:46, 408 nm and we landed with a little over 5 gals. I like to fly with more than enough fuel to take unforeseen events into account. The extra fuel was certainly comforting. William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:49 PM Pete wrote: > As per my original reply, i added an equivalent pitot feeding the static > port of the belite sensor on both aircraft. Easypeasy and works great. Fu el > rated sensor. Quite accurate. Satisfied with both. > > Fwiw, > Cheers, > Pete :-) > > > > On Mar 9, 2021, at 12:09 PM, h&jeuropa wrote: > > att.net> > > > > Pete, > > > > The problem with the BeLite probe is that it is not a differential > pressure transducer. The tank vent faces into the airstream and > pressurizes the tank. The amount of pressure varies with airspeed. Whil e > the amount of pressure from the vent is small, the weight of fuel is also > quite small. This will affect the calibration. > > > > I have been using this method of measuring fuel level for many years. I > started with the system Tony K from NZ published around 2000. Tony > specified a differential pressure transducer. Over the years I have > upgraded with newer transducers. After one of my upgrades I couldn't > figure out why the calibration in flight was different than that on the > ground until I realized about the vent pressure. Changing to a > differential transducer solved the problem. I am currently using > MPXV4006DP transducers. Since they are not rated for fuel, I use a loop of > tubing to force a column of air between the transducer and the liquid. > > > > I agree with Will Daniell, having a tank sensor is not terribly useful. > Since the Rotax only uses about 5 gph, you need accuracy of 1 gal to judg e > 12 minute endurance. That's difficult. The better solution is to use t he > "main" tank and as it gets low, monitor fuel pressure. When fuel pressur e > starts to drop, switch tanks. You can easily do this, especially with an > EFIS, and the engine won't miss a beat. Then you have the 3 gal in the > reserve side, roughly 30 minutes to land. > > > > As always, just my opinion and experience. > > > > Jim Butcher > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500907#500907 > > > > > > > > > > > > > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ======================== =========== > ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:18:16 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: 1" interior dia hose for fuel tank bosses OK thanks Jim - so what they sell as "radiator hose" for example? William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:08 PM h&jeuropa wrote: > > We just use 1" rubber automotive hose since fuel never touches it. > > Jim & Heather > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=500908#500908 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.