Europa-List Digest Archive

Fri 03/19/21


Total Messages Posted: 5



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     1. 02:04 AM - Question for Bud Yerly or Europa flyers in the USA (JonathanMilbank)
     2. 02:33 AM - Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? (Brian Davies)
     3. 07:49 AM - Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? (Bud Yerly)
     4. 08:29 AM - Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? (Pete)
     5. 06:53 PM - Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? (Steve Ivell)
 
 
 


Message 1


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    Time: 02:04:01 AM PST US
    Subject: Question for Bud Yerly or Europa flyers in the USA
    From: "JonathanMilbank" <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>
    It would be really helpful if I could make contact with anyone who operated a Europa in Brazil for a couple of years. Below this article is another headed "Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?" In September the UK will be increasing ethanol in fuel to 10%, so I'm keen to know how well, or not, the aircraft coped with ethanol in excess of 20% over a protracted period. Thanks for any replies. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501010#501010


    Message 2


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    Time: 02:33:54 AM PST US
    From: "Brian Davies" <brian.davies44@gmail.com>
    Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
    Hi Steve, I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agree d that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoi d using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethanol. A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa originally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified. Regards Brian Davies From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? Hi Jonathan The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas. My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it' s no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it. It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more affordable than having to use Avgas. Obviously just my humble opinion. Cheers Steve GSTES XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!! _____ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> > on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk <mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk> > Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35 Subject: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? <mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk> > We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being raised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longer?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Association taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test usin g a glass test tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise. The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, whic h will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, whil e simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of =C2=A3200! Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, because I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were usin g fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fue l tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol. Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000 st Email Forum - pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ums.matronics.com p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - matronics.com p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus


    Message 3


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    Time: 07:49:38 AM PST US
    From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
    Brian, Pete and Steve, A number of us have written on Ethanol in the past and have first hand expe rience like Brian and Pete. Attached is my first client info article from 2012. To add a bit and not to upset anyone: Ethanol up to 10%, that is fresh and less than three weeks old in an aircra ft where the octane is above 92 (US 92 RON, AKI 91, or European Super+ Roz9 5) can be run in the Rotax 912S and 914 safely. The 80 HP Rotax 912 as Cre ighton Smith would say can run on cat pee but he uses at least normal 87 ca r gas or better. Note that your local gas station normally has no clue of how long the gas has sat in their tanks so go to a station that has high vo lume sales is one way to reasonably be casually assured of your fuel qualit y. After three weeks the ethanol MoGas octane begins to drop and gathers water from the humidity when not in a sealed container. This water absorption/s ediment causes corrosion in aluminum components and after 6 weeks a nasty g rowth starts in stagnant fuel tanks open to the air which can cause gascola tors and filters to clog. WARNING: Detonation is highly possible in the 912ULS and 914 if run on imp roper octane content. The pilot cannot hear detonation in the Rotax normal ly and a cruise propeller setting on takeoff at full power with improper oc tane fuel can lug the engine down sufficiently to cause detonation which wi ll lead to rapid loss of compression, valve and piston damage, and eventual loss of the engine. Unlike your auto engine, the Rotax does not have a kn ock sensor to retard spark and prevent extended detonation. Specifically for the Europa: 1. The fuel lines sold as aircraft and marine use should not be used unl ess specifically designated ethanol safe as they harden and begin to permea te fuel vapor. 2. Use R-9 or better (EPA rated ethanol safe fuel hose) that is lined on ly. Not only for the smell and vapor but for seepage also. 3. Piersburg pumps are fine up to about 5 years then it is prudent to ch eck fuel pressure output as internal plastic/rubber components become britt le. 4. Gascolators, fuel selector and fuel drain rubber components are not r outinely ethanol safe. The O rings need to be Viton or similar to hold up to ethanol or change them at least every two years. 5. The Europa fuel tank material is PTFE and should be fine for use with ethanol. (Much has been complained about with leaving the tank full or em pty. I keep mine full.) 6. The fuel boss pickup coarse screen assembly uses Redux epoxy and this epoxy will fail over time with ethanol. It appears to work for about 3-5 years then begins to break down. 7. Pro seal (a fuel sealant) will begin to soften and the outer layer be gins to get very soft and slimy, but I have seen no serious breakdown on le ss than 10%. But the manufacturer does not guarantee it. Newer E85 fuel safe sealants have come on line but I have not tried them. Parker has a V1 100 and 1200 series fluorocarbon substance that has been tested in autos as a sealant but not aircraft. 8. The fuel filler rubber elbow should be replaced as it will harden and crack with ethanol over time. Plus, the fuel smell permeates the rubber h ose. Nasty. 9. Sight gauge clear lines made from certain PVCs tend to discolor and b ecome cloudy with ethanol. But some don=92t, so one must experiment over t ime. 10. Any carbureted engine floats, gaskets and bowls must be inspected rel igiously (25 hours is what I use) for deterioration from corrosion and floa t buoyancy issues with ethanol. 11. MoGas with 10% ethanol as used delivers fewer BTUs and therefore less horsepower even when fresh. In the Rotax powered Europa you will not noti ce much of a difference until doing flight testing. The difference is mino r but noticeable. Especially on cold starts, and long climbs is where I ha ve personally seen the difference. Some References: https://www.customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles -and-build-information/, Lockwood Aviation, LAA, EAA and FAA websites for m any articles and information. Or just Google =93Ethanol use in aircraft=94 and answer your own questions as there are many articles. If you want to just jump in the plane after letting it set for a few weeks and fire the beast up and go fly, AvGas with the lead suspension additive ( TCP) may be more to your liking. If you fly only about 25 hours a year locally and fly only one or two longe r cross countries a year, your scheduled maintenance between a 25 hour oil change and the normal annual oil change, plus more frequent O ring changing and the like, isn=92t much of a difference cost wise using MoGas or AvGas. In 20 years of advising on, experimenting, building and flying the Europa I have found that fuel is one of the cheapest things we put into our aircraf t. Yes, we use quite a bit of it, but I have found our Rotax experts like Phil Lockwood note there is a cost to everything. MoGas is cheaper at the pump and oil changes are longer but, on an average, it is about $20 a fligh t cheaper to use MoGas over the short term. If using fresh MoGas to fly an d then draining it out into the car if it has sat in the tanks for three we eks or longer because your plane only flies once a month, you have to see w hat meets your comfort level. If time is valuable and the tediousness of c hanging O rings and pumps more often and pumping out old fuel doesn=92t bot her you as much as your flying fuel bill, that is up to you and your person al flying. You may be the guy that drains his stagnant aircraft tank into the car on Friday night, then on Saturday jumps into the car, pulls your Eu ropa out of the garage, stops at the filling station for a fresh fill and t rucks on to the flying field for a morning flight. Or you may be the guy w ho leaves his plane outside with a cover at the field and then goes through the trials of a quick flight. Perhaps you are the guy that has your plane in the hangar fueled with AvGas and simply pulls it out and fires it up. As my old friend Walter Hudson used to say: You know what keeps an airplan e flying? Money! How you spend it is up to you. We all have our reasons for doing what we do. Choose wisely. An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in formation. Change one thing and it affects 20 others. Some of us may be old and outdated (LAA/FAA/or us old farts), but if it works don=92t screw with it. Reinventing or experimenting with a ircraft is costly so look hard at how you want to spend your time and money . Best Regards, Bud Yerly From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr onics.com> On Behalf Of Brian Davies Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 5:34 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? Hi Steve, I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agre ed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could us e Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operati ng practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction o f 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas wit hout Ethanol. A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa origi nally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol i n fuel when it was originally specified. Regards Brian Davies From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-serve r@matronics.com> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europ a-list-server@matronics.com>> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? Hi Jonathan The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas. My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it' s no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it. It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more aff ordable than having to use Avgas. Obviously just my humble opinion. Cheers Steve GSTES XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!! ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-serve r@matronics.com> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europ a-list-server@matronics.com>> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo .co.uk<mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>> Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35 Subject: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? <mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>> We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being r aised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it long er?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft A ssociation taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass t est tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then addin g about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise. The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, whi ch will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them t o our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, wh ile simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of =C2=A3200 ! Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, be cause I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fue l tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol. Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000<https://na01.sa felinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fv iewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501000%23501000&data=04%7C01%7C%7C263bafff2d3a4aec466e 08d8eabaa3c5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63751743462730767 1%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1ha WwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OvhbXmh%2FG13Sjg2bLO6W2WazunHsxU8WC18zGsjM I4g%3D&reserved=0> st Email Forum - pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List<https://na01.safeli nks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigato r%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7C263bafff2d3a4aec466e08d8eabaa3c5%7C84df 9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637517434627307671%7CUnknown%7CTWFpb GZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 C1000&sdata=qJDPEvv7KBsCGDiCMbQHfs1yiUyLGrxMtzfEWnTE5fE%3D&reserved=0> p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ums.matronics.com p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - matronics.com p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution<https://na01.safelinks.protection.out look.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C0 1%7C%7C263bafff2d3a4aec466e08d8eabaa3c5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa% 7C1%7C0%7C637517434627317657%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLC JQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rLi0BDvmc67xu%2 FvkP8KDD9vS%2BAHXIQsZXjESPNy46bw%3D&reserved=0> [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim ated-no-repeat-v1.gif]<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url =https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_sourc e%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=04%7 C01%7C%7C263bafff2d3a4aec466e08d8eabaa3c5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaa a%7C1%7C0%7C637517434627517555%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAi LCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=1sZ2mWamRyq3W Gb2uGRT0q3Y8jiJ%2Fu%2F4mpizjZoBA50%3D&reserved=0> Virus-free. www.avast.com<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?ur l=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avast.com%2Fsig-email%3Futm_medium%3Demail%26utm_sour ce%3Dlink%26utm_campaign%3Dsig-email%26utm_content%3Demailclient&data=04% 7C01%7C%7C263bafff2d3a4aec466e08d8eabaa3c5%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaa aa%7C1%7C0%7C637517434627527536%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDA iLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=KLX%2BWPlN1z rIpL4u9hJxp9gfQRMaj9Jd9c3C9s7F4Ms%3D&reserved=0>


    Message 4


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    Time: 08:29:51 AM PST US
    From: Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
    Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
    Well stated Bud! You covered all the bases. (Filed for future reference :-) ) Cheers, Pete > On Mar 19, 2021, at 11:22 AM, Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote: > > =EF=BB > Brian, Pete and Steve, > A number of us have written on Ethanol in the past and have first hand exp erience like Brian and Pete. Attached is my first client info article from 2 012. > > To add a bit and not to upset anyone: > Ethanol up to 10%, that is fresh and less than three weeks old in an aircr aft where the octane is above 92 (US 92 RON, AKI 91, or European Super+ Roz9 5) can be run in the Rotax 912S and 914 safely. The 80 HP Rotax 912 as Crei ghton Smith would say can run on cat pee but he uses at least normal 87 car g as or better. Note that your local gas station normally has no clue of how l ong the gas has sat in their tanks so go to a station that has high volume s ales is one way to reasonably be casually assured of your fuel quality. > > After three weeks the ethanol MoGas octane begins to drop and gathers wate r from the humidity when not in a sealed container. This water absorption/s ediment causes corrosion in aluminum components and after 6 weeks a nasty gr owth starts in stagnant fuel tanks open to the air which can cause gascolato rs and filters to clog. > > WARNING: Detonation is highly possible in the 912ULS and 914 if run on im proper octane content. The pilot cannot hear detonation in the Rotax normal ly and a cruise propeller setting on takeoff at full power with improper oct ane fuel can lug the engine down sufficiently to cause detonation which will lead to rapid loss of compression, valve and piston damage, and eventual lo ss of the engine. Unlike your auto engine, the Rotax does not have a knock s ensor to retard spark and prevent extended detonation. > > Specifically for the Europa: > The fuel lines sold as aircraft and marine use should not be used unless s pecifically designated ethanol safe as they harden and begin to permeate fue l vapor. > Use R-9 or better (EPA rated ethanol safe fuel hose) that is lined only. N ot only for the smell and vapor but for seepage also. > Piersburg pumps are fine up to about 5 years then it is prudent to check f uel pressure output as internal plastic/rubber components become brittle. > Gascolators, fuel selector and fuel drain rubber components are not routin ely ethanol safe. The O rings need to be Viton or similar to hold up to eth anol or change them at least every two years. > The Europa fuel tank material is PTFE and should be fine for use with etha nol. (Much has been complained about with leaving the tank full or empty. I keep mine full.) > The fuel boss pickup coarse screen assembly uses Redux epoxy and this epox y will fail over time with ethanol. It appears to work for about 3-5 years t hen begins to break down. > Pro seal (a fuel sealant) will begin to soften and the outer layer begins t o get very soft and slimy, but I have seen no serious breakdown on less than 10%. But the manufacturer does not guarantee it. Newer E85 fuel safe sea lants have come on line but I have not tried them. Parker has a V1100 and 1 200 series fluorocarbon substance that has been tested in autos as a sealant but not aircraft. > The fuel filler rubber elbow should be replaced as it will harden and crac k with ethanol over time. Plus, the fuel smell permeates the rubber hose. N asty. > Sight gauge clear lines made from certain PVCs tend to discolor and become cloudy with ethanol. But some don=99t, so one must experiment over t ime. > Any carbureted engine floats, gaskets and bowls must be inspected religiou sly (25 hours is what I use) for deterioration from corrosion and float buoy ancy issues with ethanol. > MoGas with 10% ethanol as used delivers fewer BTUs and therefore less hors epower even when fresh. In the Rotax powered Europa you will not notice muc h of a difference until doing flight testing. The difference is minor but n oticeable. Especially on cold starts, and long climbs is where I have perso nally seen the difference. > > Some References: https://www.customflightcreations.com/techniques-article s-and-build-information/, Lockwood Aviation, LAA, EAA and FAA websites for m any articles and information. Or just Google =9CEthanol use in aircra ft=9D and answer your own questions as there are many articles. > > If you want to just jump in the plane after letting it set for a few weeks and fire the beast up and go fly, AvGas with the lead suspension additive ( TCP) may be more to your liking. > If you fly only about 25 hours a year locally and fly only one or two long er cross countries a year, your scheduled maintenance between a 25 hour oil c hange and the normal annual oil change, plus more frequent O ring changing a nd the like, isn=99t much of a difference cost wise using MoGas or AvG as. > > In 20 years of advising on, experimenting, building and flying the Europa I have found that fuel is one of the cheapest things we put into our aircraft . Yes, we use quite a bit of it, but I have found our Rotax experts like Ph il Lockwood note there is a cost to everything. MoGas is cheaper at the pum p and oil changes are longer but, on an average, it is about $20 a flight ch eaper to use MoGas over the short term. If using fresh MoGas to fly and the n draining it out into the car if it has sat in the tanks for three weeks or longer because your plane only flies once a month, you have to see what mee ts your comfort level. If time is valuable and the tediousness of changing O rings and pumps more often and pumping out old fuel doesn=99t bother y ou as much as your flying fuel bill, that is up to you and your personal fly ing. You may be the guy that drains his stagnant aircraft tank into the car on Friday night, then on Saturday jumps into the car, pulls your Europa out of the garage, stops at the filling station for a fresh fill and trucks on t o the flying field for a morning flight. Or you may be the guy who leaves h is plane outside with a cover at the field and then goes through the trials o f a quick flight. Perhaps you are the guy that has your plane in the hangar fueled with AvGas and simply pulls it out and fires it up. As my old frien d Walter Hudson used to say: You know what keeps an airplane flying? Money ! How you spend it is up to you. > > We all have our reasons for doing what we do. Choose wisely. An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in formation. Change one thing and it affects 20 others. Some of us may be old and outdated (LAA/FAA/or us old farts), b ut if it works don=99t screw with it. Reinventing or experimenting wi th aircraft is costly so look hard at how you want to spend your time and mo ney. > > Best Regards, > Bud Yerly > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat ronics.com> On Behalf Of Brian Davies > Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 5:34 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? > > Hi Steve, > > I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agree d that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could use M ogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Etha nol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have exper ienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operating pra ctices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction of 10% E thanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as t here are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas without Ethan ol. > > A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fue l lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa origi nally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol in fuel when it was originally specified. > > Regards > > Brian Davies > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat ronics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell > Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? > > Hi Jonathan > > The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engin e is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas. > My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it 's no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it. > It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more af fordable than having to use Avgas. > Obviously just my humble opinion. > > Cheers > Steve > GSTES > XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!! > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat ronics.com> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk> > Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? > > k> > > We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being r aised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it longe r?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft Ass ociation taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass test t ube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then adding abou t 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the w ater level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never s aw the water level rise. > > The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethano l in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, whi ch will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those o f us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are a vailable and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them to o ur remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, while s imultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of =C3=82=C2=A3200 ! > > Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, b ecause I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using f uel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fuel t anks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol. > > Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethano l is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you. > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000 > > > > > > > ========== > st Email Forum - > pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > ========== > p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > ums.matronics.com > ========== > p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > matronics.com > ========== > p; - List Contribution Web Site - > p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > http://www.matronics.com/contribution > ========== > > > > > > Virus-free. www.avast.com > > <ethanol.pdf>


    Message 5


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    Time: 06:53:14 PM PST US
    From: Steve Ivell <SteveIvell@pestproof.co.uk>
    Subject: Re: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil?
    Hi Brian The Rotax engine isn't the problem..... it's the engine ancillaries. So.... providing we use ethanol proof rubber components there shouldn't be too ma ny problems. And I have. The LAA saying we mustn't use fuel with any ethanol in it is unfair as the petrol stations don't even know if there is ethanol in their own fuel, and the engine doesn't really care.....it still works fine. UL91 isn't readily available locally to me so why should I have to waste ti me and fuel flying to an airfield that has UK?? I'll be using mogas and taking appropriate precautions. Kind Regards Steve Ivell ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr onics.com> on behalf of Brian Davies <brian.davies44@gmail.com> Sent: Friday, March 19, 2021 9:33:35 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? Hi Steve, I can assure you that the LAA are not living in the past on this subject. When 5% Ethanol was introduced into Mogas the UK CAA effectively banned its use. The LAA worked hard to get this reversed and eventually the CAA agre ed that the LAA could determine which aircraft and/or engine types could us e Mogas with 5% Ethanol. Although the Rotax is cleared for fuel with some Ethanol the aircraft fuel system may not be. Most of the problems we have experienced have been related to fuel tanks and fuel pipes and poor operati ng practices, such as leaving stale fuel in the system. The introduction o f 10% Ethanol will require a re-think. In the meantime, avoid using it as long as there are good alternatives such as UL91 or premium grade Mogas wit hout Ethanol. A question for you before you finish your aircraft- what specification fuel lines have you installed? Are they Ethanol proof? The stuff Europa origi nally supplied is resistant but not proof because we did not have Ethanol i n fuel when it was originally specified. Regards Brian Davies From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr onics.com> On Behalf Of Steve Ivell Sent: 18 March 2021 22:49 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? Hi Jonathan The Rotax engine is fine with ethanol, as you mention in Brazil. The engine is designed for mogas and really doesn't like Avgas. My feeling is that the LAA are living in the past and if it's not Avgas it' s no good!! Well it's time to smell the coffee and get used to the here and now. 10% ethanol is coming and I'll be using it. It might mean changing the rubber more often but that's still much more aff ordable than having to use Avgas. Obviously just my humble opinion. Cheers Steve GSTES XS Trigear 912s..... nearly finished!! ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europa-list-serve r@matronics.com> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com<mailto:owner-europ a-list-server@matronics.com>> on behalf of JonathanMilbank <jdmilbank@yahoo .co.uk<mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>> Sent: Thursday, 18 March 2021, 21:35 Subject: Europa-List: Ethanol in fuel. What about Brazil? <mailto:jdmilbank@yahoo.co.uk>> We in the UK are faced with the prospect of ethanol content in fuel being r aised in September from 5% to 10%. About 10 or so years ago (or was it long er?) this whole subject got debated to death, with the LAA Light Aircraft A ssociation taking the position that we should always check each fuel batch for ethanol before pouring it into our fuel tanks. The test using a glass t est tube with about 1" of water in the bottom, noting its level, then addin g about 4 X as much fuel before shaking well and allowing to settle to see if the water level had apparently risen, was not particularly accurate and I never saw the water level rise. The LAA's understandable position then was "If you find evidence of ethanol in fuel, then don't use it!" This position is very unlikely to change, whi ch will mean that Rotax engines should either use avgas or UL91. For those of us living in god-forsaken northern latitudes, neither of these fuels are available and it would be economically prohibitive to either import them t o our remote airfields or to fly to the nearest large airport to refuel, wh ile simultaneously incurring landing fees and handling charges of =C2=A3200 ! Obviously (at least to me) Europas should cope with 10% ethanol in fuel, be cause I believe that at least one, maybe more Europas in Brazil were using fuel with ethanol having well in ecxess of 20%. Seemingly our "plastic" fue l tanks, automotive fuel lines and carburettors are unfased by ethanol. Please correct me if I'm wrong about Brazil and let me know whether ethanol is to blame for any fuel tank failures in Europas. Thank you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501000#501000 st Email Forum - pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ums.matronics.com p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - matronics.com p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution [https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-anim ated-no-repeat-v1.gif]<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&u tm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> V irus-free. www.avast.com<https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email &utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient>




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