---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 04/05/21: 7 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:21 AM - Re: Weight and Balance question (Remi Guerner) 2. 02:17 AM - Re: Weight and Balance question (Pete Jeffers) 3. 03:08 AM - Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI (Griffo) 4. 03:51 AM - Re: Weight and Balance question (Kingsley Hurst) 5. 05:30 AM - Re: Weight and Balance question (D McFadyean) 6. 11:25 AM - Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI (n7188u) 7. 03:10 PM - Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI (Griffo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:21:44 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question From: "Remi Guerner" Jeff, That is a good point. I have always used 94" for the bagage, as I do think the 88" figure is wrong for the XS bagage bay. Remi F-PGKL Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501267#501267 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:17:36 AM PST US From: "Pete Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Weight and Balance question Hi Jeffrey, Whatever the rights and wrongs of your email may be, the 88 ins WAS the correct figure for the original classic mono prior to the baggage bay extension mod (I have forgotten the no of this mod). Your figure of 92.25" may be more correct but 88" remains in the book. Pete J ( LAA inspector rep to the Europa Club) From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey Williams Sent: 04 April 2021 16:37 Subject: Europa-List: Weight and Balance question I am working on an initial weight and balance for my Europa XS and I was wondering how the baggage arm listed in the Europa manual came about. Does anyone know, and is it worth thinking about? Page 6-4 of The "XS Trigear Owners Manual=9D, Issue 7, January 2015, shows the arm for baggage at 88. The weight and balance arm measurements are taken starting at the rear of the joggle for the cowling, which is at Fuselage Station FS 29.25. As I measure it, the bottom of the D-panel bulkhead at the back of the baggage area is at 94.5=9D aft of the joggle, which is FS 103.75. A typical carry-on bag is 23 inches tall, and I expect the CG for that in the aircraft would be about at the mid-point, or 11.5 inches forward of the base of the D panel bulkhead. The result of 103.75 - 11.50 is an arm of 92.25, not 88. Six and a half (6.5) inches in the baggage arm does make a difference with full bags loaded onboard. And CG calculations do need to be based on what I are putting on board and where those things are actually located. However, I expect using 88 is close enough - unless it looks like I am getting close to the limits, which I would think should be seldom, if ever. Right? Regards, Jeff Williams Virus-free. www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 03:08:46 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI From: "Griffo" Chris -I have been thinking on this 5300 rpm Static and your claimed 5300 rpm on Climb out. With a fixed pitch propeller and constant throttle: If the engine is properly tuned (carburettor balance) and everything is as expected and you have correctly performed your Static run up engine rpm check - you must get an rpm rise, as the aircraft gathers speed, on ground role and Climb out. The only exception to this would be an abnormally high Climb out angle (above best climb angle), which may have the effect of limiting rpm (you should still have some rpm increase in ground role.) Is your tacho working correctly? If you are not getting an rpm rise, something serious may be wrong get your local Europa or LSA aircraft guru to help diagnose the problem. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501269#501269 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:35 AM PST US From: Kingsley Hurst Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance question Hello Jeff, FWIW, when I did the W&B on my Mono Classic I calculated the moment arms for both the forward and rear sections of the extended baggage bay. For the calculations, I used a 20.5 kg bag of wild bird seed as I considered this to be a good way to spread the load. In the forward section the bag was stood vertically. Calculated arm was 84.3 3=9D In the rear section, the bag was placed flat across the aircraft and pushed a s far back as possible. Calculated arm was 96.26=9D Best regards Kingsley in Oz Sent from my iPhone > On 5 Apr 2021, at 1:44 am, Jeffrey Williams wro te: > > =EF=BBI am working on an initial weight and balance for my Europa XS an d I was wondering how the baggage arm listed in the Europa manual came about . > > Does anyone know, and is it worth thinking about? > > Page 6-4 of The "XS Trigear Owners Manual=9D, Issue 7, January 2015, shows the arm for baggage at 88. The weight and balance arm measurements ar e taken starting at the rear of the joggle for the cowling, which is at Fuse lage Station FS 29.25. > > As I measure it, the bottom of the D-panel bulkhead at the back of the bag gage area is at 94.5=9D aft of the joggle, which is FS 103.75. A typic al carry-on bag is 23 inches tall, and I expect the CG for that in the aircr aft would be about at the mid-point, or 11.5 inches forward of the base of t he D panel bulkhead. > > The result of 103.75 - 11.50 is an arm of 92.25, not 88. > > Six and a half (6.5) inches in the baggage arm does make a difference with full bags loaded onboard. And CG calculations do need to be based on what I are putting on board and where those things are actually located. > > However, I expect using 88 is close enough - unless it looks like I am get ting close to the limits, which I would think should be seldom, if ever. > > Right? > > Regards, > > Jeff Williams ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:30:42 AM PST US From: D McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Weight and Balance question Priceless information. Duncan Mcf. do not archive. > On 05 April 2021 at 11:50 Kingsley Hurst wrote : > > Hello Jeff, > > FWIW, when I did the W&B on my Mono Classic I calculated the moment a rms for both the forward and rear sections of the extended baggage bay. > > For the calculations, I used a 20.5 kg bag of wild bird seed as I con sidered this to be a good way to spread the load. > > In the forward section the bag was stood vertically. Calculated arm w as 84.33=9D > In the rear section, the bag was placed flat across the aircraft and pushed as far back as possible. Calculated arm was 96.26=9D > > Best regards > Kingsley in Oz > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On 5 Apr 2021, at 1:44 am, Jeffrey Williams wrote: > > > > > > > > > > I am working on an initial weight and balance for my Europa XS and I was wondering how the baggage arm listed in the Europa manu al came about. > > > > Does anyone know, and is it worth thinking about? > > > > Page 6-4 of The "XS Trigear Owners Manual=9D, Issue 7, Ja nuary 2015, shows the arm for baggage at 88. The weight and balance arm mea surements are taken starting at the rear of the joggle for the cowling, whi ch is at Fuselage Station FS 29.25. > > > > As I measure it, the bottom of the D-panel bulkhead at the back of the baggage area is at 94.5=9D aft of the joggle, which is FS 103 .75. A typical carry-on bag is 23 inches tall, and I expect the CG for that in the aircraft would be about at the mid-point, or 11.5 inches forward of the base of the D panel bulkhead. > > > > The result of 103.75 - 11.50 is an arm of 92.25, not 88. > > > > Six and a half (6.5) inches in the baggage arm does make a diff erence with full bags loaded onboard. And CG calculations do need to be bas ed on what I are putting on board and where those things are actually locat ed. > > > > However, I expect using 88 is close enough - unless it looks li ke I am getting close to the limits, which I would think should be seldom, if ever. > > > > Right? > > > > Regards, > > > > Jeff Williams > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 11:25:15 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI From: "n7188u" Griffo, Now that I flown the airplane a little more I can provide additional info. The RPM does stay somewhat constant at between 5200-5400 in my plane during initial climb (around 60 kias). As I retract the flaps and increase speed to around 80 kias the RPM will go up I think around 200-300 rpm but at that point I am throttling back because the climb rate and deck angle are a little steep for my taste at this point in flight testing. Is the tach accurate? don't know. You got me curious so I will check. But the blade angle is set to what is recommended for this prop and the 912 ULS (17.5) so it shouldn't be too far off. The SportCruiser LSA uses this prop with the 912 ULS and the manual calls for 5000100 RPM during static RPM test so I don't think my tach is off. Props are not all created the same. I remember reading some Europa docs that said the warp drive tended to have a lower RPM than static as the airplane starts to move as the prop starts to "bite" better (I tried to find it to provide as refence but couldn't find it). I think the DUC propellers claim a similar effect. In my LongEZ it is the "normal" way, I get around 2200 static and then 2500 as soon as I start the takeoff roll. It's a big change. Take all I said with a grain of salt. It is based on my observations and what I remember reading (if I find where I read the info from Europa about the Warp drive props I'lll post it). Best Regards, Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501277#501277 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:30 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Wobbly altimeter and ASI From: "Griffo" Chris, My experience of this class of aircraft is limited to 12 years and some 900 hrs in the one LSA, an ATEC Zephyr /Rotax 912 ULS. From this I would say that 5200 to 5400 is a significant increase in rpm. In my view not quite enough for best take-off performance but getting there some tweaking required. You are absolutely correct when you say different props/airframes will influence engine performance, as will your particular take-off strategy. Personally, I use full throttle on start, only reducing when a good safe (turn back) altitude has been achieved and then only to maximum continuous rpm (high speed climb) until cruise altitude & leveling off, when I go to my preferred economy cruise of 5000-5200 rpm. Observed by many Rotax 91 engines love revs so as long as you are staying below the 5 minute max power and above 5200 under load, everything should just be peachy. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501288#501288 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.