---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Thu 04/08/21: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:57 AM - Re: Re: arplast pv 50 (Pete Jeffers) 2. 02:48 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance question (Pete Jeffers) 3. 04:32 AM - Re: arplast pv 50 (Matt Dovey) 4. 08:15 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance question (Bud Yerly) 5. 08:54 AM - Re: Re: Weight and Balance question (William Daniell) 6. 09:20 AM - SnF (rampil) 7. 03:38 PM - Re: SnF (Bud Yerly) 8. 03:51 PM - Re: SnF (Pete Zut) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:57:00 AM PST US From: "Pete Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: arplast pv 50 Re Arplast PV50 bearings. Which ones are you talking about. Are you talking about the main blade root bearings or the little bearing that the pitch change lead screw runs in? Both are available from your local bearing suppliers and are not too expensive. I used to get them from a company called Bearing Traders. If you intend to change the large blade root bearings please note that this involves removal of the blade drive dog and subsequent resetting of same when re assembling. You will need to make a jig to locate the dog correctly before reassembly. We used to need to send back to manufacturers in France to carry out this job correctly but they are not in business now so you will have to do it yourself. If you get this wrong you will end up with each blade at a different pitch. Not good. You will also have to reset the fine and coarse limit switches. Once more not a happy job, but doable with patience. All this is why I now have a Woodcomp propeller. Pete -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt Dovey Sent: 07 April 2021 21:48 Subject: Europa-List: Re: arplast pv 50 Thanks for the reply's guys. Ken do you have the part numbers for the bearings. Or do you have a link to them. I would like to get them ordered before I start the permit inspection. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501307#501307 -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:48:17 AM PST US From: "Pete Jeffers" Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question Hi John, Stupid you may call the position of the zero datum but the reason is mostly historical, very practical and it standardises critical numbers like CG positions across our fleet of Classics, XS's & motor gliders. Taken in order the history started with the Classic where zero datum was the front of the engine cowl. It was at this time also considered logical for the sake of non mathematicians to keep all figures positive and not confuse the issue with negative numbers. You don't have to look very far to find stupid errors in critical calculations caused by deliberately introducing negative moments. As the XS nose was extended slightly further forward it was sensible to leave zero datum as was. Hence the 29 3/4" point on ALL marks of Europa is where the front of the engine cowl would have been had it been a classic. This means, and this is important, that the CG limits and fuel tank pilot passenger and baggage load points for all marks are consistent. It all makes for less risk of confusion and error. Had the first type of Europa to be produced been an XS then zero datum would probably have been a quite different location. Pete J PS There may be good reason to change the baggage station of 88 ins to a more realistic figure in light of the fact that this figure is still the same as was applicable prior to the extended baggage bay mod. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Wighton Sent: 06 April 2021 10:58 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question Gentlemen (and Ladies, if present), All this discussion on CG moment arm made my weekend, an absolute hoot from start to finish (is it finished yet?). This is not helped by the rather cack-handed approach prescribed in the POH. A reasonably common piece of data in this thread is the location of the datum. But even that may vary depending on who/how weighed/measured the aircraft - treat this as a variable across the fleet, but a constant for your aeroplane. Any calculation of W&B needs to use the actual mass as measured and the actual moment arm as measured. Weigh the item (you, pax, the dog, grannies apple pie or your bag of birdseed). Use that data in a spreadsheet. Link: http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/Weight%20and%20balance /w_and_b_main.html Skydemon also provides a very nice W&B calculator (it is legally necessary to do this for EVERY flight), which makes it easy-peazy. The moment arm I use for baggage is a measurement to the centre of the bay. However, the Europa Aircraft method of establishing the FS 0.0 datum is a comedy. A position 29.25" fwd of the "Rear of joggle for cowling in fuselage moulding" needs to be marked. This is totally unnecessary - the cowling to fuselage joint is as good a datum as any. It requires all moment arms forward of it to be given a negative sign (for the initial W&B calculation and any subsequent firewall forward mods) and all those aft of it to be positive. Just measure along the horizontal fuselage datum WL (level sill can be used as per POH) to the FS of the item to be measured. Attached is an extract from the POH (note the depicted Trigear also has a secreted mainwheel protruding from the fuselage!). -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501290#501290 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/europa_wandb_303.jpg -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://www.avg.com ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:32:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: arplast pv 50 From: "Matt Dovey" Hi Pete, I've already replaced the bearings on the lead screw when I replaced the pitch change motor and gearbox. So will be looking to replace the root bearings. There is one blade with some slight play in it. So a new bearing might resolve this. I did the limit switches last year. Wasn't hard to do. Just time consuming. I'm trying to keep the prop going as long as possible to honest. The cost of replacing it is fairly high and I don't want to fit a fixed pitch. I'm trying to order as many parts before I start work on the aircraft. Want to get as much done in the least amount of time Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501312#501312 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 08:15:59 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question Well said Pete. It may be worth the research and time to do the aft CG flight tests to see if extension of the rear limit is possible. Andy may be the best guy to go to. Story time: Years ago, after Sun 'n Fun, Andy and I flew, and we discussed for a moment the extended baggage bay and gear placement when loading. Unfortunately, our discussion was abruptly ended by the Former President of Europa Aircraf t, Keith Wilson, who said "We spun tested and inch past the CG so who cares , we need to go." What a nice guy. When loading for my first long cross country with my Classic (XS cowl and F WF and Extended baggage that was home made but nearly exact except for the size of the access holes) I loaded as follows: With two bags (20" airline roll around at 15 pounds each planned but really 20 pounds) 10 pounds of tools and oil in the trigear bracing, flight bag a t 10 pounds, kids toys, hair curlers and essentials, and full fuel (new fue l tank and filled to the neck), I computed the weight in the rear at right at 80 pounds (or so, as I only was figuring 50). My gear legs are at 70 i nches so all was fine until I pushed the tail down and the angle changed. Thud, the plane hit on the tail tie down and stayed there with no one in th e seats. A recalculation of the "needed" baggage and its placement was mad e. The weight and balance was computed based on the short 88 inches from the P OH which I knew was a stretch. Bags were arranged hard at the tank as was the tool bag and oil tucked in the X bracing of the trigear wells. Flight bag was held on top of the roll arounds under my baggage net. Kids toys an d hair care essentials went at the aft bulkhead and I computed the weight a nd arm to be 62.5. It was the fuel that surprised me. The new tank held a full 20 gallons to the top of my trigear neck not 18, why the difference I didn't measure but the fuel was carefully checked and found to be 76 inche s on the average from full to empty. A trigear sitting level can pack a fe w more cubic inches in I guess. A new recalculation of the weight and bala nce was made based on the fuel weight of the new tank and plumbing. My sca les were giving me trouble, and it took a couple of days. Not much of a CG change, but still my assumptions were not accurate. I needed to measure a nd weigh both airplane and bags and their placement then test. Of course, the Europa flew fine but the nose was just as I found in flight testing at the full aft CG limit, just a little lighter in pitch on takeoff and damping in flight was still superb because of the well designed tail. It would be prudent to measure back from the joggle and recompute when plan ning your load in any aircraft then recompute via the 29.25" and do the cal culations for full fuel and landing fuel. The Cherokee Six is one that sca res the heck out of me as does the Cessna 207 when I see guys loading them willy nilly with large passengers and heavy bags. Trust no one, verify, measure and weigh. Don't arbitrarily build an intent ionally nose heave A.P.S for load as landing and approach light weight with two full sized guys is a bit nose heavy in the flare. Building tail heavy for two 250 pound pilots is not prudent either for flying solo with baggag e. Do the measurements and calculate. It's just math. Then compute your C G for many loadings and test carefully. I learned when converting a Zenith 601 for a very large individual (275 pounder) required me to actually weig h the aircraft with him in it and a second pilot with and without fuel (tan k is at the firewall and in the wings) to get a handle on his loading restr ictions. That was my first eye opener on these small aircraft. If you ste pped on the Zeniths aft mounted step to get in the plane with him in it and full fuel, the plane fell on its butt and damaged the rudder. What a less on. I was delighted with the compact arrangement of the Europa for CG cont rol. Within the CG limits and especially from 59-62.5 inches I find the Europa d elightful. Make sure stab throws are near the max for assured control. Fo llow prudent testing when near the limits of the CG. I find full forward C G to require a slightly faster round out if the stab is only 12 degrees up travel, and I find it more comfortable to carry 5 more knots in my aircraft if at the full forward CG. I moved the battery to the rear when I added t he Airmaster and have never looked back. APS is right at 59 for N12AY. I keep an electronic fish scale (good to 25 pounds) and a tape measure hand y when carrying props and things in the Europa that are heavy/bulky. Somet imes when solo, I strap heavy props and things in the seat next to me. In your computations for your POH include the various loading extremes of m ax forward/aft possible, two pilot, fully loaded for cross country with ful l fuel and landing fuel. It is just math. I do mine on Excel for neatness and my Avare flight planning program now has the data for XC use. The POH is in the aircraft with the actual fore and aft limitations on loading and my phone has EVERY manual loaded on the cloud and the data card for the ai rplane and its equipment. If you are building an airplane and watching TV at night, change your prior ities and do the research on every component in your aircraft, and for CG t hat means loading assumptions too. YOU are the manufacturer and therefore responsible for the safety of your aircraft, documentation, flight restrict ions and operational limitations. Oh by the way, stay flight proficient an d married at the same time. Aircraft builders are busy people. Best Regards Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of Pete Jeffers Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 5:48 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question ilto:pjeffers@talktalk.net>> Hi John, Stupid you may call the position of the zero datum but the reason is mostly historical, very practical and it standardizes critical numbers like CG positions across our fleet of Classics, XS's & motor gliders. Taken in order the history started with the Classic where zero datum was th e front of the engine cowl. It was at this time also considered logical for the sake of non mathematicians to keep all figures positive and not confuse the issue with negative numbers. You don't have to look very far to find stupid errors in critical calculations caused by deliberately introducing negative moments. As the XS nose was extended slightly further forward it was sensible to leave zero datum as was. Hence the 29 3/4" point on ALL marks of Europa is where the front of the engine cowl would have been had it been a classic. This means, and this is important, that the CG limits and fuel tank pilot passenger and baggage load points for all marks are consistent. It all make s for less risk of confusion and error. Had the first type of Europa to be produced been an XS then zero datum woul d probably have been a quite different location. Pete J PS There may be good reason to change the baggage station of 88 ins to a more realistic figure in light of the fact that this figure is still the same as was applicable prior to the extended baggage bay mod. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of John Wighton Sent: 06 April 2021 10:58 Subject: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question john@wighton.net>> Gentlemen (and Ladies, if present), All this discussion on CG moment arm made my weekend, an absolute hoot from start to finish (is it finished yet?). This is not helped by the rather cack-handed approach prescribed in the POH. A reasonably common piece of data in this thread is the location of the datum. But even that may vary depending on who/how weighed/measured the aircraft - treat this as a variable across the fleet, but a constant for your aeroplane. Any calculation of W&B needs to use the actual mass as measured and the actual moment arm as measured. Weigh the item (you, pax, the dog, grannies apple pie or your bag of birdseed). Use that data in a spreadsheet. Link: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.light aircraftassociation.co.uk%2Fengineering%2FWeight%2520and%2520balance&da ta=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aa aaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978551386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4 wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata= 9drXcnFu2mH34UAQcvWMlzPWooU1Jjs%2FWsDjvkQ%2B7io%3D&reserved=0 /w_and_b_main.html Skydemon also provides a very nice W&B calculator (it is legally necessary to do this for EVERY flight), which makes it easy-peazy. The moment arm I use for baggage is a measurement to the centre of the bay. However, the Europa Aircraft method of establishing the FS 0.0 datum is a comedy. A position 29.25" fwd of the "Rear of joggle for cowling in fuselage moulding" needs to be marked. This is totally unnecessary - the cowling to fuselage joint is as good a datum as any. It requires all moment arms forward of it to be given a negative sign (for the initial W&B calculation and any subsequent firewall forward mods) and all those aft of it to be positive. Just measure along the horizontal fuselage datum WL (level sill can be used as per POH) to the FS of the item to be measured. Attached is an extract from the POH (note the depicted Trigear also has a secreted mainwheel protruding from the fuselage!). -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501290%23501290&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb 93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0% 7C637534722978551386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2 luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=AfBF1qNNOLjzdvQL1Jt 3HSe%2Bg9hf0joOZvmSUnpBOVc%3D&reserved=0 Attachments: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma tronics.com%2F%2Ffiles%2Feuropa_wandb_303.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6 e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63 7534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMz IiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nrkWgQ4mbkSnLoErZIIBnXX QUC6Qi0rQCVHokE0FQSQ%3D&reserved=0 -- This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.avg. com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe 9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3 d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000 &sdata=bT3KYPXwbHqt2nwOeJxxwlQxxfoQ6Pa9JEcOLVkQxBc%3D&reserved= 0 %2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e 6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 37534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iCQs8rlgFYKe8ojfN3%2FV QEziBbT44Uh0RygGpPEtrjg%3D&reserved=0 %2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8 fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7C Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=7oKY5XXgmRaIxltD67TfAnWbdUbIdnu2L285G1Yus1 o%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa 73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CUn known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=esTudYF0TfpIpG8IhD7U1v1uz%2F%2FWk%2FTvvRPAXy WJP1o%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465 b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978 561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6 Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hKwU1qj7cNlmFhLc56Po8wRqSTVNQ2fmO x6HZI2OuBk%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:54:07 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question When I flew from Colombia to USA I strapped the aux tank to the trigear cross bar snug up against the rear of the main tank. The aux tank and transfer pump weighs 16 lbs and holds 10 gals. I made a sort of bath tub to hold the turtle pac bladder precisely to concentrate the weight as far forward as possible, even so from the center of the main tank to the center of the aux tank is 11 inches suggesting the arm of the POH 88 is about right. Another 10 lbs of tools went under the seats and we had 10lbs of ipads handheld radio batteries and liferaft.. We had 5lbs each of T shirts and underwear which went behind the aux tank in the baggage bay. Lbs arm moment Front 177.00 15.00 2,655.00 Right 385.00 70.80 27,258.00 Left 385.00 70.80 27,258.00 APS 947.00 60.37 57,171.00 tools Maps GPS headset etc 20.00 56.00 1,120.00 Pilot 200.00 56.00 11,200.00 Pax 200.00 56.00 11,200.00 Baggage 10.00 88.00 880.00 Aux fuel tank weight 16.28 88.00 16.28 Subtotal 1,393.28 58.56 81,587.28 fuel 108.00 76.00 8,208.00 Aux fuel 60.00 88.00 5,280.00 1,561.28 60.90 95,075.28 MTOW 1450 Available -111.28 William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 8:19 AM Bud Yerly wrote: > Well said Pete. > > It may be worth the research and time to do the aft CG flight tests to se e > if extension of the rear limit is possible. Andy may be the best guy to > go to. > > *Story time:* > > Years ago, after Sun 'n Fun, Andy and I flew, and we discussed for a > moment the extended baggage bay and gear placement when loading. Unfortu nately, > our discussion was abruptly ended by the Former President of Europa > Aircraft, Keith Wilson, who said "We spun tested and inch past the CG so > who cares, we need to go." What a nice guy. > > > When loading for my first long cross country with my Classic (XS cowl and > FWF and Extended baggage that was home made but nearly exact except for t he > size of the access holes) I loaded as follows: > > With two bags (20" airline roll around at 15 pounds each planned but > really 20 pounds) 10 pounds of tools and oil in the trigear bracing, flig ht > bag at 10 pounds, kids toys, hair curlers and essentials, and full fuel > (new fuel tank and filled to the neck), I computed the weight in the rear > at right at 80 pounds (or so, as I only was figuring 50). My gear legs > are at 70 inches so all was fine until I pushed the tail down and the > angle changed. Thud, the plane hit on the tail tie down and stayed there > with no one in the seats. A recalculation of the "needed" baggage and > its placement was made. > > > The weight and balance was computed based on the short 88 inches from the > POH which I knew was a stretch. Bags were arranged hard at the tank as > was the tool bag and oil tucked in the X bracing of the trigear wells. F light > bag was held on top of the roll arounds under my baggage net. Kids toys > and hair care essentials went at the aft bulkhead and I computed the weig ht > and arm to be 62.5. It was the fuel that surprised me. The new tank > held a full 20 gallons to the top of my trigear neck not 18, why the > difference I didn't measure but the fuel was carefully checked and found to > be 76 inches on the average from full to empty. A trigear sitting level > can pack a few more cubic inches in I guess. A new recalculation of the > weight and balance was made based on the fuel weight of the new tank and > plumbing. My scales were giving me trouble, and it took a couple of days .. > Not much of a CG change, but still my assumptions were not accurate. I > needed to measure and weigh both airplane and bags and their placement th en > test. > > > Of course, the Europa flew fine but the nose was just as I found in fligh t > testing at the full aft CG limit, just a little lighter in pitch on takeo ff > and damping in flight was still superb because of the well designed tail. > > > It would be prudent to measure back from the joggle and recompute when > planning your load in any aircraft then recompute via the 29.25" and do t he > calculations for full fuel and landing fuel. The Cherokee Six is one > that scares the heck out of me as does the Cessna 207 when I see guys > loading them willy nilly with large passengers and heavy bags. > > > Trust no one, verify, measure and weigh. Don't arbitrarily build an > intentionally nose heave A.P.S for load as landing and approach light > weight with two full sized guys is a bit nose heavy in the flare. Buildi ng > tail heavy for two 250 pound pilots is not prudent either for flying solo > with baggage. Do the measurements and calculate. It's just math. Then > compute your CG for many loadings and test carefully. I learned when > converting a Zenith 601 for a very large individual (275 pounder) require d > me to actually weigh the aircraft with him in it and a second pilot with > and without fuel (tank is at the firewall and in the wings) to get a hand le > on his loading restrictions. That was my first eye opener on these small > aircraft. If you stepped on the Zeniths aft mounted step to get in the > plane with him in it and full fuel, the plane fell on its butt and damage d > the rudder. What a lesson. I was delighted with the compact arrangement > of the Europa for CG control. > > > Within the CG limits and especially from 59-62.5 inches I find the Europa > delightful. Make sure stab throws are near the max for assured control. Follow > prudent testing when near the limits of the CG. I find full forward CG > to require a slightly faster round out if the stab is only 12 degrees up > travel, and I find it more comfortable to carry 5 more knots in my aircra ft > if at the full forward CG. I moved the battery to the rear when I added > the Airmaster and have never looked back. APS is right at 59 for N12AY. > > > I keep an electronic fish scale (good to 25 pounds) and a tape measure > handy when carrying props and things in the Europa that are heavy/bulky. Sometimes > when solo, I strap heavy props and things in the seat next to me. > > In your computations for your POH include the various loading extremes of > max forward/aft possible, two pilot, fully loaded for cross country with > full fuel and landing fuel. It is just math. I do mine on Excel for > neatness and my Avare flight planning program now has the data for XC use .. > The POH is in the aircraft with the actual fore and aft limitations on > loading and my phone has EVERY manual loaded on the cloud and the data ca rd > for the airplane and its equipment. > > > If you are building an airplane and watching TV at night, change your > priorities and do the research on every component in your aircraft, and f or > CG that means loading assumptions too. YOU are the manufacturer and > therefore responsible for the safety of your aircraft, documentation, > flight restrictions and operational limitations. Oh by the way, stay > flight proficient and married at the same time. Aircraft builders are > busy people. > > > Best Regards > > Bud Yerly > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete Jeffers > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 5:48 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question > > > > > Hi John, > > Stupid you may call the position of the zero datum but the reason is > mostly > > historical, very practical and it standardizes critical numbers like CG > > positions across our fleet of Classics, XS's & motor gliders. > > Taken in order the history started with the Classic where zero datum was > the > > front of the engine cowl. It was at this time also considered logical for > > the sake of non mathematicians to keep all figures positive and not > confuse > > the issue with negative numbers. You don't have to look very far to find > > stupid errors in critical calculations caused by deliberately introducing > > negative moments. > > As the XS nose was extended slightly further forward it was sensible to > > leave zero datum as was. Hence the 29 3/4" point on ALL marks of Europa i s > > where the front of the engine cowl would have been had it been a classic. > > This means, and this is important, that the CG limits and fuel tank pilot > > passenger and baggage load points for all marks are consistent. It all > makes > > for less risk of confusion and error. > > Had the first type of Europa to be produced been an XS then zero datum > would > > probably have been a quite different location. > > Pete J > > PS There may be good reason to change the baggage station of 88 ins to a > > more realistic figure in light of the fact that this figure is still the > > same as was applicable prior to the extended baggage bay mod. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > > [mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > ] On Behalf Of John Wighton > > Sent: 06 April 2021 10:58 > > To: europa-list@matronics.com > > Subject: Europa-List: Re: Weight and Balance question > > > > > Gentlemen (and Ladies, if present), > > > All this discussion on CG moment arm made my weekend, an absolute hoot fr om > > start to finish (is it finished yet?). This is not helped by the rather > > cack-handed approach prescribed in the POH. > > > A reasonably common piece of data in this thread is the location of the > > datum. But even that may vary depending on who/how weighed/measured the > > aircraft - treat this as a variable across the fleet, but a constant for > > your aeroplane. Any calculation of W&B needs to use the actual mass as > > measured and the actual moment arm as measured. > > > Weigh the item (you, pax, the dog, grannies apple pie or your bag of > > birdseed). Use that data in a spreadsheet. > > > Link: > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.lig htaircraftassociation.co.uk%2Fengineering%2FWeight%2520and%2520balance& data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435 aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978551386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiM C4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata =9drXcnFu2mH34UAQcvWMlzPWooU1Jjs%2FWsDjvkQ%2B7io%3D&reserved=0 > > /w_and_b_main.html > > > Skydemon also provides a very nice W&B calculator (it is legally necessar y > > to do this for EVERY flight), which makes it easy-peazy. > > > The moment arm I use for baggage is a measurement to the centre of the > bay. > > However, the Europa Aircraft method of establishing the FS 0.0 datum is a > > comedy. A position 29.25" fwd of the "Rear of joggle for cowling in > > fuselage moulding" needs to be marked. > > > This is totally unnecessary - the cowling to fuselage joint is as good a > > datum as any. It requires all moment arms forward of it to be given a > > negative sign (for the initial W&B calculation and any subsequent firewal l > > forward mods) and all those aft of it to be positive. > > > Just measure along the horizontal fuselage datum WL (level sill can be us ed > > as per POH) to the FS of the item to be measured. > > > Attached is an extract from the POH (note the depicted Trigear also has a > > secreted mainwheel protruding from the fuselage!). > > > -------- > > John Wighton > > Europa XS trigear G-IPOD > > > Read this topic online here: > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501290%23501290&data=04%7C01%7C%7 Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C 0%7C637534722978551386%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=AfBF1qNNOLjzdvQL1 Jt3HSe%2Bg9hf0joOZvmSUnpBOVc%3D&reserved=0 > > > Attachments: > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2F%2Ffiles%2Feuropa_wandb_303.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93 e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C 637534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2lu MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=nrkWgQ4mbkSnLoErZIIBn XXQUC6Qi0rQCVHokE0FQSQ%3D&reserved=0 > > > -- > > This email has been checked for viruses by AVG. > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.av g.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7 fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZs b3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C10 00&sdata=bT3KYPXwbHqt2nwOeJxxwlQxxfoQ6Pa9JEcOLVkQxBc%3D&reserved =0 > > > - The Europa-List Email Forum - > > Matronics List Features Navigator to browse > > Photoshare, and much much more: > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mat ronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e03111146 5b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63753472297 8561380%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI 6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iCQs8rlgFYKe8ojfN3%2FVQEziBbT44U h0RygGpPEtrjg%3D&reserved=0 > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7 C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CUnknown%7C TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 %3D%7C1000&sdata=7oKY5XXgmRaIxltD67TfAnWbdUbIdnu2L285G1Yus1o%3D&r eserved=0 > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > Matronics Email List Wiki! > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ma tronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8fa73e64e%7C8 4df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CUnknown%7CTW FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3 D%7C1000&sdata=esTudYF0TfpIpG8IhD7U1v1uz%2F%2FWk%2FTvvRPAXyWJP1o%3D&a mp;reserved=0 > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mat ronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb93e6e031111465b4a4308d8f a73e64e%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534722978561380%7CU nknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLC JXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=hKwU1qj7cNlmFhLc56Po8wRqSTVNQ2fmOx6HZI2OuBk %3D&reserved=0 > > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 09:20:26 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: SnF From: "rampil" Like Bud and Anita, Linda and I are double vaxed and planning to attend. Our local forecast for next Monday and Tuesday calls for rain, so we will be driving. Would anyone here consider attending an Engineering Meeting (Wednesday or Thursday)? Cheers, Ira N224XS -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501320#501320 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 03:38:42 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: SnF Anita and I will be there. Watch the weather up North. It's nice down here but you have to get here from there. Heck getting 12AY the 5 miles from Plant City Airport to Lakeland may have to be by road. My freshly top overhauled engine is leaking oil from the turbo components like rain. I'm throwing time and parts at that now. The last oil leak is at the oil catch can area under the turbo (which is wet between the split also) and believe it or not, my hose from the turbo outlet to the manifold is full of oil and leaking. What a mess. Hopefully, I can troubleshoot that and find a less costly fix than I fear the symptoms are leading to. On top of that, although all went extremely well during high power flight test climbs, stalls, cruise and engine data checks I did some touch and goes and after a short/soft field full stop landing, I was feeling good on taxi back then I find the voltage down to 12 and the amps at -2 at idle power. It never does that. It is always 13 minimum and slightly positive. I ran it up to 2500 and the voltage rose a bit as did the amps indicating there is some life there. Then I saw a small pool of oil under the turbo. Either the voltage regulator has failed (I just put that on in 2007) or my stator has died (I repaired that in 2006). Frankly a 14 year old part on a 20 year old engine should last forever don't you think? Except it is an airplane of course. So back to the airport in the morning to pull the cowl, test the stator, replace the regulator, and find the oil leak and hopefully fix it for sure. Backup plan is load the plane on the trailer and haul it as time is growing short. Life is an adventure, and I'm up for it. Bud and Anita Yerly Custom Flight Creations, Inc. US Airmaster Dealer Europa N12AY at S'nF site N55. -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of rampil Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 12:20 PM Subject: Europa-List: SnF Like Bud and Anita, Linda and I are double vaxed and planning to attend. Our local forecast for next Monday and Tuesday calls for rain, so we will be driving. Would anyone here consider attending an Engineering Meeting (Wednesday or Thursday)? Cheers, Ira N224XS -------- Ira N224XS Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501320%23501320&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cfa68e5a4269f4b4dd97108d8faaac561%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637534958644181269%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BZ74UgBRJ%2Fso98NjtmsNNk%2Bepy5Cxm84WlLDH2ll7bg%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:51:53 PM PST US From: Pete Zut Subject: Re: Europa-List: SnF re: weather: ya, it's like that every. single. year. for us north-easters..... always blocking fronts rolling through :-( -PeteZ On Thu, Apr 8, 2021 at 5:45 PM Bud Yerly wrote: > > Anita and I will be there. > > Watch the weather up North. It's nice down here but you have to get here > from there. > > > Heck getting 12AY the 5 miles from Plant City Airport to Lakeland may hav e > to be by road. > My freshly top overhauled engine is leaking oil from the turbo components > like rain. I'm throwing time and parts at that now. The last oil leak i s > at the oil catch can area under the turbo (which is wet between the split > also) and believe it or not, my hose from the turbo outlet to the manifol d > is full of oil and leaking. What a mess. Hopefully, I can troubleshoot > that and find a less costly fix than I fear the symptoms are leading to. > On top of that, although all went extremely well during high power flight > test climbs, stalls, cruise and engine data checks I did some touch and > goes and after a short/soft field full stop landing, I was feeling good o n > taxi back then I find the voltage down to 12 and the amps at -2 at idle > power. It never does that. It is always 13 minimum and slightly > positive. I ran it up to 2500 and the voltage rose a bit as did the amps > indicating there is some life there. Then I saw a small pool of oil under > the turbo. Either the voltage regulat! > or has failed (I just put that on in 2007) or my stator has died (I > repaired that in 2006). Frankly a 14 year old part on a 20 year old engi ne > should last forever don't you think? Except it is an airplane of course. > So back to the airport in the morning to pull the cowl, test the stator, > replace the regulator, and find the oil leak and hopefully fix it for > sure. Backup plan is load the plane on the trailer and haul it as time is > growing short. Life is an adventure, and I'm up for it. > > Bud and Anita Yerly > > Custom Flight Creations, Inc. > US Airmaster Dealer > Europa N12AY at S'nF site N55. > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of rampil > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2021 12:20 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: SnF > > > Like Bud and Anita, Linda and I are double vaxed and planning to attend. > Our local forecast for next Monday and Tuesday calls for rain, so we will > be driving. > > Would anyone here consider attending an Engineering Meeting (Wednesday > or Thursday)? > > Cheers, > Ira > N224XS > > -------- > Ira N224XS > > > Read this topic online here: > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501320%23501320&data=04%7C01%7C%7 Cfa68e5a4269f4b4dd97108d8faaac561%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C 0%7C637534958644181269%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=BZ74UgBRJ%2Fso98N jtmsNNk%2Bepy5Cxm84WlLDH2ll7bg%3D&reserved=0 > > =========== =========== =========== =========== =========== > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.