---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Mon 05/03/21: 10 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 04:02 AM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Griffo) 2. 04:34 AM - Re: Re: Charge warning light (Rowland Carson) 3. 04:46 AM - Re: FW: Charge warning light (William Daniell) 4. 05:33 AM - Re: FW: Charge warning light (Bud Yerly) 5. 05:59 AM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (John Kirkgaard) 6. 07:53 AM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Dave Disney) 7. 08:35 AM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (JonathanMilbank) 8. 10:35 AM - Re: FW: Charge warning light (William Daniell) 9. 11:18 AM - For Sale: Europa Classic Tri Gear, United Kingdom (VigiFlyer) 10. 10:38 PM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Griffo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 04:02:18 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Griffo" I am with Steve Ivell - now where near enough information on which to base a hypothesis. All fuel degrade over time - how long had this fuel been sitting in the aircrafts vented tank. Was fresh fuel added to old ? and if so in what sort of ratio? I recently witnessed a Europa (912 ULS) that had not been flown for 3 years BUT had been regularly taxied, run rough on start up, followed by a shut down and failed attempts to restart. Investigation revealed dark orange fuel that if fresh should have been almost colorless/ to very light yellow. Draining the dark fuel, replacing with fresh, emptying the float chambers and flushing the fuel lined with fresh fuel completely changed the engines performance. Instant start and smooth running. Aircraft the taken for its first circuits in 3 years without any difficulty. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501661#501661 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:34:47 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Charge warning light On 2021-05-03, at 00:31, rparigoris wrote: > You can buy a B&C AVC1 field kit that includes phosphor bronze fast ons.: > file:///C:/Users/PARIGO~2/AppData/Local/Temp/Replacement_Regulators_for_the_Rotax.pdf Ron - the link to your local hard drive does not work :-) Heres a link to the appropriate B&C website page: https://bandc.com/product/avc1-advanced-voltage-controller-homebuilt/#installation-kit Looks like a nice bit of kit. Dont know if anyone in UK has tried to get it approved by LAA yet, but if my Schicke GR6 goes belly-up the B&C will be my first choice for a replacement as Schicke now seems to be made of unobtanium. in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:46:54 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light So the bottom line is the symptoms suggest that my VR is failing? Is the bandc unit a straight drop in? Thanks Will William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Sun, May 2, 2021, 19:00 Bud Yerly wrote: > > > Will, > > This is the common failure of an older voltage regulator: > > Most older tech regulator/rectifiers use a small incandescent lamp in the > charge circuit warning. > > If the regulator and battery are putting out the same voltage, the lamp i s > out (12 volts on either side of the lamp). > > If the regulator or one of the rectifier diodes begins to die, the voltag e > difference begins to be different so the lamp glows faintly. > > If the regulator or the rectifier dies completely the warning light does > not illuminate as the warning light circuit depends on regulator output > circuitry. Your first indication is the battery low warning goes on or > your volt meter starts to sag. > > > Note: VRs are temperature sensitive. Try to keep them below 50C (130F) > and if saturated at 70C (150F) or better, let them cool. This is a > problem on a quick refuel and takeoff in the Florida summers with high am p > needs on top of the temperature. Heat is the killer of regulators. > > > Other Regulators to consider: > > Nobody likes Ducati but they work if the amps are kept low and the temps > are reasonable (mine lasted 10+ years). Modest price at $150-170 USD. > > In the US, Silent Hectic is harder to get except from a European > partner/cohort. Works well. $250ish USD typically. > > Since we have a dynamo like Deutz and Kubota tractors, some have used > their regulators. Cheap, $20-$50. Hi amp users may find a high failure > rate. Problems are with temperature as these tend to be flimsy units but > rugged for tractor use. > > > Note: Jabiru uses a Kubota. > > > B&C builds a very nice regulator for the Rotax. Has LED output and a > proper warning system separate from the regulator circuit. Even > overvoltage protection is built in. Works well with GRT, Dynon and > Garmin systems. Van=99s uses them on their RV12s and others are mo ving > that way due to the high number of Dynon and Garmin users. It puts out > 14.5 volts and is adjustable as is the low voltage warning which really > helps gel cell and Lithium Ion battery users unlike the cheaper options. > It is a step above what we are used to. The operational under hood heat > max is in line with the others. Cost is $300ish. > > > I=99ve attached a word doc I just researched last month when my Duc ati VR > went out on 12AY just prior to Sun =98n Fun. > > > I=99ve got my spare Ducati on now but will go to the B&C to check i t out > this summer after I consider a ducting change to my firewall. I keep my > TCU on the footwell and need to do some temperature checks under the hood > to determine if I put my VR next to my TCU under the footwell cover. Thi s > cover has a built in fan and ducting with a timer to keep the TCU cool. I > figure, why not cool the VR along with it. I just have to see how hot > the VR gets putting out power. The TCU never gets warm from operation. > > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *William Daniell > *Sent:* Sunday, May 02, 2021 4:46 PM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Europa-List: Charge warning light > > > I have standard z 16 > > > I have a charge warning light and a Dynon efis and ems > > > This morning the charge light stayed on for about 5 mins albeit glowing > not lit. Normally it goes out within 1 min. The dynon said 13.8v and 6 > amps from start up and my battery charging amps were normal also. > > > Does this mean anything apart from some kind of fault with the light? > For example do these symptoms mean that my regulator about to give up? > > > Thanks > > > Will > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 05:33:32 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light Will, Yes. B&C has dimensions on their website to check your particular aircraft bolt pattern. Bud Yerly Get Outlook for Android ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of William Daniell Sent: Monday, May 3, 2021 7:46:26 AM Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light So the bottom line is the symptoms suggest that my VR is failing? Is the bandc unit a straight drop in? Thanks Will William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Sun, May 2, 2021, 19:00 Bud Yerly > wrote: Will, This is the common failure of an older voltage regulator: Most older tech regulator/rectifiers use a small incandescent lamp in the c harge circuit warning. If the regulator and battery are putting out the same voltage, the lamp is out (12 volts on either side of the lamp). If the regulator or one of the rectifier diodes begins to die, the voltage difference begins to be different so the lamp glows faintly. If the regulator or the rectifier dies completely the warning light does no t illuminate as the warning light circuit depends on regulator output circu itry. Your first indication is the battery low warning goes on or your vol t meter starts to sag. Note: VRs are temperature sensitive. Try to keep them below 50C (130F) an d if saturated at 70C (150F) or better, let them cool. This is a problem o n a quick refuel and takeoff in the Florida summers with high amp needs on top of the temperature. Heat is the killer of regulators. Other Regulators to consider: Nobody likes Ducati but they work if the amps are kept low and the temps ar e reasonable (mine lasted 10+ years). Modest price at $150-170 USD. In the US, Silent Hectic is harder to get except from a European partner/co hort. Works well. $250ish USD typically. Since we have a dynamo like Deutz and Kubota tractors, some have used their regulators. Cheap, $20-$50. Hi amp users may find a high failure rate. Problems are with temperature as these tend to be flimsy units but rugged f or tractor use. Note: Jabiru uses a Kubota. B&C builds a very nice regulator for the Rotax. Has LED output and a prope r warning system separate from the regulator circuit. Even overvoltage pro tection is built in. Works well with GRT, Dynon and Garmin systems. Van =92s uses them on their RV12s and others are moving that way due to the hig h number of Dynon and Garmin users. It puts out 14.5 volts and is adjustab le as is the low voltage warning which really helps gel cell and Lithium Io n battery users unlike the cheaper options. It is a step above what we are used to. The operational under hood heat max is in line with the others. Cost is $300ish. I=92ve attached a word doc I just researched last month when my Ducati VR w ent out on 12AY just prior to Sun =91n Fun. I=92ve got my spare Ducati on now but will go to the B&C to check it out th is summer after I consider a ducting change to my firewall. I keep my TCU on the footwell and need to do some temperature checks under the hood to de termine if I put my VR next to my TCU under the footwell cover. This cover has a built in fan and ducting with a timer to keep the TCU cool. I figur e, why not cool the VR along with it. I just have to see how hot the VR ge ts putting out power. The TCU never gets warm from operation. Best Regards, Bud Yerly From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > On Behalf Of William Daniell Sent: Sunday, May 02, 2021 4:46 PM Subject: Europa-List: Charge warning light I have standard z 16 I have a charge warning light and a Dynon efis and ems This morning the charge light stayed on for about 5 mins albeit glowing not lit. Normally it goes out within 1 min. The dynon said 13.8v and 6 amp s from start up and my battery charging amps were normal also. Does this mean anything apart from some kind of fault with the light? For example do these symptoms mean that my regulator about to give up? Thanks Will William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 05:59:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "John Kirkgaard" Hi Jonathan. The E10 has been on the market (in Denmark)for a couple of years, only. In our Europa 912S we are using standard fuel RON 95 E10, only. Have used the RON 100 E5 once, but seems to be waste of money, only. Over the time the Europa has flown - approx 1 years and 50 hours- we have not had any fuel related problems. The only minor issue we have is that we have to change the O-ring in the Andair gascolator, after each time we dismantle the glass, as the o-ring swells up as soon as it gets in contact with the fuel. Well for sure that means, that we have to check the hoses slightly more often than when using AVgas John Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501665#501665 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 07:53:41 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Dave Disney" Hi Jonathan, I would be very surprised if a garage forecourt was selling 'stale' fuel and if I suspected the forecourt supply I would have gone back and bought 5 litres in a clean container and had it tested. I do not know what, if any, periodic sample tests are done by forecourt operators, but I understand that they are supposed to supply fuel to a certain standard. Perhaps the Eurofox already had a good deal of stale fuel in its tanks before the new fuel was added, I wonder what the ratio of new to existing was. After the lockdown I pumped out all my fuel into clear containers and it looked a little yellow compared to fresh fuel. I have been adding it to fresh fuel in small quantities to use it up without problems so far. This is another good reason to sample the fuel when purchased for ethanol - you can check the colour. That all fuel in the north comes from Grangemouth may not be an indication of the ethanol content of forecourt fuel. The reason for this statement is based on a conversation I once had with a tanker driver who was making deliveries to different forecourt suppliers (all supplied out of Avonmouth). I was told that the basic refined petroleum used was the same, but different additives are added to the tanker before despatch depending on what brand is being sold (Esso, BP, Sainsburys etc). Now it maybe that Grangemouth stocks a basic petroleum that contains 5% ethanol in which case you are stumped (that may explain why Esso Premium uptnorth contains ethanol), but it may be worth sampling different 'Premium' brands to make sure, one good point is that all the premium brands are remaining E5 for the time being. Either way, I will continue to leave my fuel pump 'on' all the time to reduce the risk of vapour lock, use the 'main' tank feed all the time (so I know the reserve filter should be free if needed) check the filters every couple of months and purchase ethanol free high octane fuel when ever possible and check each batch before use. It's good to see that John Kirkgaard in Denmark hasn't had too many problems using E10. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501668#501668 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 08:35:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "JonathanMilbank" Hello again John, Good to know that you're not having trouble with E10. This tends to confirm what one of our more scientific club members has found in his research into the matter. To sum up what he was telling me yesterday, we should not notice any significant difference in our Europas, at least, between E5 and E10. But there's nothing like hearing "from the horse's mouth" as the saying goes, so I look forward to getting more replies from pilots in the EU. All the best with your Europa projects and hopefully we'll speak again soon. Best regards, Jonathan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501670#501670 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:35:13 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light And this might also explain the simultaneous appearance of a slight feedback howl in my headset when i Tx? William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Mon, May 3, 2021, 08:36 Bud Yerly wrote: > Will, > Yes. > > B&C has dimensions on their website to check your particular aircraft bol t > pattern. > > Bud Yerly > > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of William Daniell < > wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, May 3, 2021 7:46:26 AM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light > > So the bottom line is the symptoms suggest that my VR is failing? > > Is the bandc unit a straight drop in? > > Thanks > > Will > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > > On Sun, May 2, 2021, 19:00 Bud Yerly wrote: > > > Will, > > This is the common failure of an older voltage regulator: > > Most older tech regulator/rectifiers use a small incandescent lamp in the > charge circuit warning. > > If the regulator and battery are putting out the same voltage, the lamp i s > out (12 volts on either side of the lamp). > > If the regulator or one of the rectifier diodes begins to die, the voltag e > difference begins to be different so the lamp glows faintly. > > If the regulator or the rectifier dies completely the warning light does > not illuminate as the warning light circuit depends on regulator output > circuitry. Your first indication is the battery low warning goes on or > your volt meter starts to sag. > > > Note: VRs are temperature sensitive. Try to keep them below 50C (130F) > and if saturated at 70C (150F) or better, let them cool. This is a > problem on a quick refuel and takeoff in the Florida summers with high am p > needs on top of the temperature. Heat is the killer of regulators. > > > Other Regulators to consider: > > Nobody likes Ducati but they work if the amps are kept low and the temps > are reasonable (mine lasted 10+ years). Modest price at $150-170 USD. > > In the US, Silent Hectic is harder to get except from a European > partner/cohort. Works well. $250ish USD typically. > > Since we have a dynamo like Deutz and Kubota tractors, some have used > their regulators. Cheap, $20-$50. Hi amp users may find a high failure > rate. Problems are with temperature as these tend to be flimsy units but > rugged for tractor use. > > > Note: Jabiru uses a Kubota. > > > B&C builds a very nice regulator for the Rotax. Has LED output and a > proper warning system separate from the regulator circuit. Even > overvoltage protection is built in. Works well with GRT, Dynon and > Garmin systems. Van=99s uses them on their RV12s and others are mo ving > that way due to the high number of Dynon and Garmin users. It puts out > 14.5 volts and is adjustable as is the low voltage warning which really > helps gel cell and Lithium Ion battery users unlike the cheaper options. > It is a step above what we are used to. The operational under hood heat > max is in line with the others. Cost is $300ish. > > > I=99ve attached a word doc I just researched last month when my Duc ati VR > went out on 12AY just prior to Sun =98n Fun. > > > I=99ve got my spare Ducati on now but will go to the B&C to check i t out > this summer after I consider a ducting change to my firewall. I keep my > TCU on the footwell and need to do some temperature checks under the hood > to determine if I put my VR next to my TCU under the footwell cover. Thi s > cover has a built in fan and ducting with a timer to keep the TCU cool. I > figure, why not cool the VR along with it. I just have to see how hot > the VR gets putting out power. The TCU never gets warm from operation. > > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *William Daniell > *Sent:* Sunday, May 02, 2021 4:46 PM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Europa-List: Charge warning light > > > I have standard z 16 > > > I have a charge warning light and a Dynon efis and ems > > > This morning the charge light stayed on for about 5 mins albeit glowing > not lit. Normally it goes out within 1 min. The dynon said 13.8v and 6 > amps from start up and my battery charging amps were normal also. > > > Does this mean anything apart from some kind of fault with the light? > For example do these symptoms mean that my regulator about to give up? > > > Thanks > > > Will > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 11:18:23 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: For Sale: Europa Classic Tri Gear, United Kingdom From: "VigiFlyer" Europa Classic Trigear for Sale on AFORS: Link to AFORS Post Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501673#501673 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/ext_3_157.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/int_3_187.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/int_2_185.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/int_1_168.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/ext_2_423.jpeg http://forums.matronics.com//files/ext_1_724.jpeg ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 10:38:42 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Griffo" Dave Disney: Your auxiliary/boost pump will not "prevent vapour lock" - The only way to reduce the chance of this happening is: To install the Rotax recommended fuel by -pass system Only fly on days below 30C Minimise ground running On very hot days -perform an extended high power run-up and plan for an engine out/low on power. As this is an international forum for Europa aircraft, you might want to specify what country you are operating from - reason- fuel standards, terminology varies between countries. Statements such as "there's no such thing as ethanol free car petrol" may only apply to your geographic local. Also: Rotax 91 engines are found in a wide range of aircraft. For the most part their operation and service /fuel requirements are the same ie not Europa specific. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501678#501678 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.