---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 05/04/21: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 12:13 AM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Remi Guerner) 2. 06:42 AM - Re: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Robert Marston) 3. 09:51 AM - Re: FW: Charge warning light (William Daniell) 4. 12:20 PM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Dave Disney) 5. 03:45 PM - Re: Charge warning light (rparigoris) 6. 04:38 PM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Griffo) 7. 04:53 PM - Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel (Griffo) 8. 05:04 PM - Re: AVmap EFIS Ultra feedback please (Griffo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 12:13:29 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Remi Guerner" The only minor issue we have is that we have to change the O-ring in the Andair gascolator, after each time we dismantle the glass, as the o-ring swells up as soon as it gets in contact with the fuel. John, You are right: the Viton o-ring which seals the bowl of the Andair GAS375 expands when in contact with fuel (I do not know if Avgas UL91 or Mogas 98 E5 makes a difference as I am using both). So when you re-install the bowl after cleaning the filter element, the expanded o-ring does not fit and it is very easy to damage it without knowing and go flying with a fuel leak. One (expensive) solution is to replace the o-ring every time you service the filter. However, I found that the expanded o-ring gets back to its original dimensions when stored in free air for a few weeks. So my solution is to have two o-rings: one in the gascolator while the other one is drying on your desk, waiting for the next service. As a precaution I carry a new spare o-ring in the aircraft. Remi Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501681#501681 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:50 AM PST US From: Robert Marston Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel Hi Steve, I built and flew Europa Trigear G-CDBX and did have problems when I first s tarted using fuel with Ethanol added. My son (a Ryanair captain) and I took off from Southampton on a warm July d ay. Everything was normal until about 1500ft the engine misfired and contin ued to do so. We returned to the airfield, removed the cowels, did an engine check and ev erything seemed normal. Again took off, and at about 1500 ft the misfire r ecurred. Returned to Southampton and landed safely. I trailered the plane back to my home airfield of Shenstone. There, I remo ved the cowels, checked everything and could find no reason for the misfire . I decided to fly it to see if I could reproduce the problem. After 2 or 3 flights and perhaps 2 hours flying nothing happened until I was just retur ning at Shenstone when the misfire occurred again. I decide to carry on fl ying but to an area where I knew there were lots of big fields, just in cas e. I couldn=92t get the misfire to happen again and returned to Shenstone w ithout further incident. After landing I decided to put my hand through the inspection hatch and fee l the carburettors. To my surprise the float bowls were very hot, almost t o hot to touch. This was the clue to the problem. Next, I tied the tailpla ne of the aircraft to our tractor to do some full power checks. This time after about 2 minutes, a severe misfire occurred. I let the engine cool and repeated the test. Again, after about 2 minutes a severe misfire. A couple of days I repeated the test and the engine misf ired as expected. I now knew I could repeat the fault and was narrowing d own on the cause. Next I drained the fuel and filled up with Avgas, no eth anol. This time after 2 minutes, no misfire. I continued the test and even after 5 minutes no misfire occurred. Clearly, to me the problem was the h igher vapour pressure of the ethanol. The fix, I took a thin piece of aluminium to act as a heat shield between t he very hot exhaust pipe and the carburettor bowls. I fixed it by bolting it under a nearby exhaust pipe bolt. On feeling the carburettor bowls afte r flight they now seemed much cooler. I continued using petrol + ethanol mi x and during the following say 200 hours the problem never recurred. Robert Marston ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Steve Ivell Sent: 02 May 2021 22:04 Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel How can you or the Eurofox pilot be certain it's down to the fuel being sta le?? It could be vapour lock, water in fuel etc, etc. We all have anecdotal tales of "fuel" problems but there are many possibili ties and blaming stale fuel is a bit lame TBH. Kind Regards Steve Ivell 07971 128842 ________________________________ From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of JonathanMilbank Sent: Sunday, May 2, 2021 10:24:16 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel > Hi Dave, My question is about Europa aircraft as a whole, although perhaps I should have been more specific. Most people I know in the Europa family and severa l others using Rotax engines in different aircraft types, have no qualms at all about E10 in their engines. As you say, it's the "the fuel tank, fuel lines and electric pump" which give more concern. But I've been informed that there's no such thing as ethanol free car petro l such as Esso Synergy Supreme and other "super unleaded" brands in the who le of Scotland and parts of Northern England, which all get their fuel from the Grangemouth refinery regardless of brand name. From September this yea r, all car petrol from Grangemouth will continue to have ethanol of at leas t 5% and 10% in ordinary unleaded. Furthermore a friend's Eurofox experienced partial engine failure after tak e-off due to using Esso Synergy Supreme from a local garage, probably stale fuel due to low sales turnover. He only just managed to get back onto the runway unscathed! After flushing out the fuel system and filling with ordin ary E5 unleaded, there's never been another missed beat in his engine. So my question remains to be answered by EU pilots and particularly Europa owners who have been using E10 for many years, as far as I know. Please let me know if you've heard of any problems experienced by any pilot and/or Eu ropa owner after using E10 petrol for a long time. Problems not only to do with carburettor icing and vapour lock, but also the fuel tank, fuel lines and electric pump. Thank you. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501651#501651 st Email Forum - pa-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List p; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - ums.matronics.com p; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - matronics.com p; - List Contribution Web Site - p; -Matt Dralle, List Admin. http://www.matronics.com/contribution ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 09:51:34 AM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light OK so I went ahead and ordered a bandc regulator. I spoke to them about it. It has the same mounting holes and footprint as the ducati VR. It has an internal OVP. If the OVP trips then you cycle the generator. This means I'm going to remove my current OVP which I hope should not be too much of an issue. I also am going to take the opportunity to change my fusible link to a 25A fuze. thanks Will William Daniell LONGPORT +1 786 878 0246 On Mon, May 3, 2021 at 5:36 AM Bud Yerly wrote: > Will, > Yes. > > B&C has dimensions on their website to check your particular aircraft bol t > pattern. > > Bud Yerly > > Get Outlook for Android > > ------------------------------ > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> on behalf of William Daniell < > wdaniell.longport@gmail.com> > *Sent:* Monday, May 3, 2021 7:46:26 AM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: FW: Europa-List: Charge warning light > > So the bottom line is the symptoms suggest that my VR is failing? > > Is the bandc unit a straight drop in? > > Thanks > > Will > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > > On Sun, May 2, 2021, 19:00 Bud Yerly wrote: > > > Will, > > This is the common failure of an older voltage regulator: > > Most older tech regulator/rectifiers use a small incandescent lamp in the > charge circuit warning. > > If the regulator and battery are putting out the same voltage, the lamp i s > out (12 volts on either side of the lamp). > > If the regulator or one of the rectifier diodes begins to die, the voltag e > difference begins to be different so the lamp glows faintly. > > If the regulator or the rectifier dies completely the warning light does > not illuminate as the warning light circuit depends on regulator output > circuitry. Your first indication is the battery low warning goes on or > your volt meter starts to sag. > > > Note: VRs are temperature sensitive. Try to keep them below 50C (130F) > and if saturated at 70C (150F) or better, let them cool. This is a > problem on a quick refuel and takeoff in the Florida summers with high am p > needs on top of the temperature. Heat is the killer of regulators. > > > Other Regulators to consider: > > Nobody likes Ducati but they work if the amps are kept low and the temps > are reasonable (mine lasted 10+ years). Modest price at $150-170 USD. > > In the US, Silent Hectic is harder to get except from a European > partner/cohort. Works well. $250ish USD typically. > > Since we have a dynamo like Deutz and Kubota tractors, some have used > their regulators. Cheap, $20-$50. Hi amp users may find a high failure > rate. Problems are with temperature as these tend to be flimsy units but > rugged for tractor use. > > > Note: Jabiru uses a Kubota. > > > B&C builds a very nice regulator for the Rotax. Has LED output and a > proper warning system separate from the regulator circuit. Even > overvoltage protection is built in. Works well with GRT, Dynon and > Garmin systems. Van=99s uses them on their RV12s and others are mo ving > that way due to the high number of Dynon and Garmin users. It puts out > 14.5 volts and is adjustable as is the low voltage warning which really > helps gel cell and Lithium Ion battery users unlike the cheaper options. > It is a step above what we are used to. The operational under hood heat > max is in line with the others. Cost is $300ish. > > > I=99ve attached a word doc I just researched last month when my Duc ati VR > went out on 12AY just prior to Sun =98n Fun. > > > I=99ve got my spare Ducati on now but will go to the B&C to check i t out > this summer after I consider a ducting change to my firewall. I keep my > TCU on the footwell and need to do some temperature checks under the hood > to determine if I put my VR next to my TCU under the footwell cover. Thi s > cover has a built in fan and ducting with a timer to keep the TCU cool. I > figure, why not cool the VR along with it. I just have to see how hot > the VR gets putting out power. The TCU never gets warm from operation. > > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > > *From:* owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *William Daniell > *Sent:* Sunday, May 02, 2021 4:46 PM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Europa-List: Charge warning light > > > I have standard z 16 > > > I have a charge warning light and a Dynon efis and ems > > > This morning the charge light stayed on for about 5 mins albeit glowing > not lit. Normally it goes out within 1 min. The dynon said 13.8v and 6 > amps from start up and my battery charging amps were normal also. > > > Does this mean anything apart from some kind of fault with the light? > For example do these symptoms mean that my regulator about to give up? > > > Thanks > > > Will > > William Daniell > +1 786 878 0246 > > ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 12:20:54 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Dave Disney" Reply for Griffo: For information I'm in the UK. I agree that having the fuel pump on will not prevent vapour lock, but having positive pressure in the fuel system will help reduce the chance of it as any vapour in the fuel line will be pushed through the fuel lines back to the tank. I also believe that it helps starting especially when the engine is hot and the risk of vapour lock is greater. On the Vans RV12, the fuel pump comes on with the master switch, there is no separate switch to turn off the pump, the only way to turn it of is to pull the circuit breaker/fuse If you search on the Vans forums, you will learn that one reason for having the pump on all the time is to help prevent vapour lock. Vans consider the pump an expendable item as it's cheap to replace. The downside to leaving it on all the time is that (without a fuel pressure gauge as in my aircraft) you will not know if the mechanical pump has failed. This is why I occasionally turn off the electric pump at a safe altitude to see if the low fuel pressure light comes on which will indicate a problem with the mechanical pump. I'm interested to learn if anyone has a valid reason for not leaving the electric pump on all the time. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501697#501697 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 03:45:51 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Charge warning light From: "rparigoris" Hi William A few notes on AVC1: ** It's Nickle plated and conductive ** There are 2 grounds on it, I suggest you use both ** If you are not certain that you have Phosphor Bronze Fastons, at minimum replace the two yellow AC wires with them ** If you by chance don't have a capacitor or the one you have is questionable, B&C sells them ** You can read the install manual on line, you may need to get some stuff like LED and or reset switch etc Good luck Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501700#501700 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 04:38:19 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Griffo" Hi David D; I have a fuel pressure gauge which gives some indication of fuel delivery health. I use my auxiliary fuel pump, pre start, to "charge the system" Turn of before engaging the starter. If you dont have to "drain" your electrical system with unnecessary systems you will get a better chance of a "brisk" turn over & engine start (same with a road vehicle, turn of all non essential electrics befor engaging starter). I briefly use my auxiliary pump again during warm up to check for significant rise/fall in fuel line pressure - health of the system check. Auxiliary pump on for take off & climb out to safe altitude. I dont put my auxiliary pump on again, until down wind for a landing/or low level pass. Pump is turned off when taxiing prior to engine shut down. Your auxiliary pump is supposed to be a back up in the event of your main, usually mechanical, pump failing in whole/part. It is routinely turned on, during critical phases of flight, when an engine fuel starvation situation may result in a crash. It is also there for cruise flight if the mechanical pump fails. It is not and never has been a continual fuel supply mechanism. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501701#501701 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 04:53:17 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Question for European friends re E10 car fuel From: "Griffo" Rotax 91 engines: Fuel vaporisation is usually the result of the heat from a hot engine, low/nil air flow "boiling" fuel in the fuel line (s) that go from the mechanical pump to the carburettors. Boiling/vaporization of the fuel in these lines, is most likely to occur when a hot engine is shut down. No air & fuel flow. Keeping fuel running through these lines will allow "cooling" to take place. Rotax have come up with a partial "fix". It is restricted "bleed" system where fuel vapour and fuel can be vented back to the tank. This allows fresh cool fuel to charge the system close to the carburettors (there can still be a brief period of rough running as the hot gaseous fuel is passes through the carburettors giving a sub optimal fuel/air mix). Using your auxiliary fuel pump on the ground, to push the hot fuel/gas back to the tank and replace it with fresh cool fuel, may certainly assist in speeding the recovery from the fuel vaporisation state. Using your auxiliary pump continuously will add nothing to your engines performance but is likely to drain your wallet a but quicker. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501702#501702 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 05:04:29 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: AVmap EFIS Ultra feedback please From: "Griffo" I have an AvMap Ultra - The swinging the compass part is a right royal pain in the back side. As per the instructions. I turned on all flight instruments prior to commencing the swing - all four cardinal points and the aircraft is supposed to be as near to flight attitude as you can make it. It works but may need recalibrating from time to time. To be honest, I got mine more for the nice AH display - looks cool in the centre of my panel. Be warned - the AH is a little slow to react to changes of attitude. Other features are also useful but the display is so small I find I use my IPad & GPS for such things as ground speed and other instruments for air speed and climb/decent. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501703#501703 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.