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1. 06:01 AM - Re: Re: Water Drain (Bud Yerly)
2. 04:42 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo)
3. 04:42 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo)
4. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Water Drain (Bud Yerly)
5. 08:14 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo)
Message 1
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In the US we have similar filters to this and looking on line I am particularly
unimpressed with filters with just a straight nipple end. Although easier, inexpensive
and used by the auto industry with their new fuel clip seals, the ASTM
crowd in LSAs went to them but use common fuel line. I will stick to a metal
hose barbed end filter and continue on as I am.
You as the manufacturer of the aircraft can make those choices if your country
regulations and inspectors allow it.
A few years ago, a local A&P broke a similar plastic filter on an LSA by clamping
down the hose too hard. This plane had a hose replacement using fuel injection
hose, and being a hard hose, he clamped the crap out of it until it cracked.
He called me over to his shop and we had a talk about it, and with carb hose and
less pressure it seemed to hold just fine. The filter only costs a couple
of bucks but it was back to the store to get another. I think the plane was a
German LSA.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Griffo
Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 10:56 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain
Hi Bud,
You have certainly developed some good coping/management techniques with the screw
together filters BUT have you looked at the Hengst ones I have recommended?
Don't know about the USA but here in Australia, filter choice is not usually
seen as an something the aircraft maker has the last word on (they are a consumable
like oil or coolant choice). Further the Hengst filters are quite popular
in LSA class aircraft operated in Europe. Soooo much simpler to use than the
screw together type.
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Message 2
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All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true"
if you are happy to stay with it.
Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available.
A few points;
Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings
and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention.
Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead
to damaged leaking hoses.
Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel
hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with
fitting or leaking.
I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise
- change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont use FI hose) for an even 360 degree
clamping pressure and much reduced chance of hose damage.
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All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true"
if you are happy to stay with it.
Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available.
A few points;
Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings
and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention.
Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead
to damaged leaking hoses.
Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel
hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with
fitting or leaking.
I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise
- change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont want to use FI hose)
--------
46
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The gates hose was never the problem. The plastic filter was installed where the
hose immediately bent after the barb. Heck of a way to install, especially
with a plastic $2.00 filter. When he cranked down on the hose clamp he flexed
the hose and the filter snaped. The Breezer was a ELSA and we think it may
have been an owner operator installation issue as it was the first Breezer I had
seen come through here. No plastic part should ever be held in bending. That
was dumb.
As far as hose clamps go, we use what we call Breeze clamps rather than the garden
hose type. They look the same but are more robust and the screw doesn't protrude
into the hose. However, expediency sometimes dictates the automotive
supply shop "only has this type", and on the smaller vent hoses the cheap Chinese
knock off Breeze type clamps will get used when the client comes with them.
You are right, the cheap knock off open cut clamps when over tightened can
cut the hose, and the rubber can poke through the gap or they just break. Nasty.
I have moved on hose exchanges to the newer style silicone hose lined clamps
supplied by my hose vender. Easy to use, a bit heavy, protects the hose.
The name on them is AC Delco but I also see Ideal. They work fine on 5/16 hose
but not on 1/4 inch. Then the compression or Oetiker clamp comes in handy
for those.
Why do I choose not to like compression style clamps? Because I do not like to
use them in a low pressure carbureted system hose when it comes to removal.
They get stuck on the hose and are a pain to get off when the client overtightens
and the barb end gets buried in the hose. Especially when repositioning,
which occurs during the learning phase. It's like the clamps on the 11mm crossover
tube on the Rotax. Trying to find new hose that doesn't cost $10 a foot
plus shipping is a pain over here. So, I prefer the Ideal or Dayco lined clamps
for my main lines on a change out as I've gone to all 5/16 hose in the Europa
so only one fuel line is in the plane. Easier to buy/replace come hose change
time. I'm lazy.
Although many LSA manufacturers are going to the crimp type or Oetiker clamp in
production. From a production point of view I can see them, but I'm not excited
about the fact they are one time use. Probably because during fabrication
you take it apart and put it together a couple times. I can see the point that
if the clamp area is easily accessed, getting a tool in there is not a problem.
I've never had a leak with an Oetiker clamp, but then again, I'm not going
to use them on a fuel filter.
That is why I prefer to do my bosses now with all the joints on the end of the
boss and minimize the clamps. We can do that in the US on our own. Others have
to ask or get permission for a deviation. Shame.
On my filters I use the Colder products quick disconnects. I have a love/hate
relationship with them, but for 20 years they only require new O rings on the
male ends and have never leaked unless the O ring gets cut. That is why I also
hate them. The stupid locking collar will cut the O ring if care is not taken.
That way the hose clamps go on and stay on for 5 years on the quick disconnects.
Note, I'm on year 7 with the hoses in 12AY with the lined EPA lined R7 or better
carb hose. It is really holding up very well. It is still supple, no cracking
seen on the ends, and no checking at the clamps. So, the original 1997 Europa
supplied Ideal clamps of steel will probably corrode off before the hose
starts looking bad. Maybe next year I'll do a hose change. Maybe not?
I'm getting older and the hose change requirement must be met to comply with the
Rotax manual on my 914. Every one of my cooling hoses has the original style
compression clamps and frankly, in Florida they are corroding just a bit now
and I can't stand to look at them. Time to upgrade, probably spring clamps on
the cooling hoses I guess with all new engine and airframe hoses and clamps.
That's two to three days work at my pace now days.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Griffo
Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 7:42 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain
All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true"
if you are happy to stay with it.
Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available.
A few points;
Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings
and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention.
Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead
to damaged leaking hoses.
Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel
hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with
fitting or leaking.
I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise
- change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont want to use FI hose)
--------
46
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Message 5
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Good to talk with you Bud,
I dont do so well with imperial/US measurements but can struggle through when I
must.
Back to the filters:
Most of the fuel filters of this "type" have poor quality casings, have pleated
"paper" type filters and many are opaque (making it impossible to asses contamination
build up)
The Hengst H102WK & H103WK are almost indestructible. Have gauze filters and clear
casings - they are more like $10 each Australian, if bought singly but you
can get them down to about $6 Au if purchased in quantity.
Like you, I was initially skeptical of the non "barbed" male hose fitting. However
using the right sized ID hose, cut to the correct length and supported, where
appropriate, has resulted in 12 years/900hrs of no leaks, no inadvertent
detachments.
One other benefit of the non barb, is that the possibility of tearing the inside
of the hose, when temporary removal is done, is eliminated. This then eliminates
those troublesome little bits of "rubber" that may appear in your float bowl.
The H103WK has a built in 90 degree bend, making tight applications that would
benefit from this a breeze.
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