---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 05/12/21: 5 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 06:01 AM - Re: Re: Water Drain (Bud Yerly) 2. 04:42 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo) 3. 04:42 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo) 4. 06:32 PM - Re: Re: Water Drain (Bud Yerly) 5. 08:14 PM - Re: Water Drain (Griffo) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 06:01:18 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain In the US we have similar filters to this and looking on line I am particularly unimpressed with filters with just a straight nipple end. Although easier, inexpensive and used by the auto industry with their new fuel clip seals, the ASTM crowd in LSAs went to them but use common fuel line. I will stick to a metal hose barbed end filter and continue on as I am. You as the manufacturer of the aircraft can make those choices if your country regulations and inspectors allow it. A few years ago, a local A&P broke a similar plastic filter on an LSA by clamping down the hose too hard. This plane had a hose replacement using fuel injection hose, and being a hard hose, he clamped the crap out of it until it cracked. He called me over to his shop and we had a talk about it, and with carb hose and less pressure it seemed to hold just fine. The filter only costs a couple of bucks but it was back to the store to get another. I think the plane was a German LSA. Best Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of Griffo Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2021 10:56 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain Hi Bud, You have certainly developed some good coping/management techniques with the screw together filters BUT have you looked at the Hengst ones I have recommended? Don't know about the USA but here in Australia, filter choice is not usually seen as an something the aircraft maker has the last word on (they are a consumable like oil or coolant choice). Further the Hengst filters are quite popular in LSA class aircraft operated in Europe. Soooo much simpler to use than the screw together type. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501868%23501868&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9d041897bebb41501dd708d914f200c3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637563851889984040%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=rJVVmOI5i2Pg%2B0f1HZwM0hWhdUz5PB%2FxakoZJ4IAL3g%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:24 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain From: "Griffo" All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true" if you are happy to stay with it. Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available. A few points; Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention. Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead to damaged leaking hoses. Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with fitting or leaking. I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise - change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont use FI hose) for an even 360 degree clamping pressure and much reduced chance of hose damage. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501880#501880 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 04:42:40 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain From: "Griffo" All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true" if you are happy to stay with it. Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available. A few points; Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention. Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead to damaged leaking hoses. Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with fitting or leaking. I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise - change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont want to use FI hose) -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501881#501881 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:32:29 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain The gates hose was never the problem. The plastic filter was installed where the hose immediately bent after the barb. Heck of a way to install, especially with a plastic $2.00 filter. When he cranked down on the hose clamp he flexed the hose and the filter snaped. The Breezer was a ELSA and we think it may have been an owner operator installation issue as it was the first Breezer I had seen come through here. No plastic part should ever be held in bending. That was dumb. As far as hose clamps go, we use what we call Breeze clamps rather than the garden hose type. They look the same but are more robust and the screw doesn't protrude into the hose. However, expediency sometimes dictates the automotive supply shop "only has this type", and on the smaller vent hoses the cheap Chinese knock off Breeze type clamps will get used when the client comes with them. You are right, the cheap knock off open cut clamps when over tightened can cut the hose, and the rubber can poke through the gap or they just break. Nasty. I have moved on hose exchanges to the newer style silicone hose lined clamps supplied by my hose vender. Easy to use, a bit heavy, protects the hose. The name on them is AC Delco but I also see Ideal. They work fine on 5/16 hose but not on 1/4 inch. Then the compression or Oetiker clamp comes in handy for those. Why do I choose not to like compression style clamps? Because I do not like to use them in a low pressure carbureted system hose when it comes to removal. They get stuck on the hose and are a pain to get off when the client overtightens and the barb end gets buried in the hose. Especially when repositioning, which occurs during the learning phase. It's like the clamps on the 11mm crossover tube on the Rotax. Trying to find new hose that doesn't cost $10 a foot plus shipping is a pain over here. So, I prefer the Ideal or Dayco lined clamps for my main lines on a change out as I've gone to all 5/16 hose in the Europa so only one fuel line is in the plane. Easier to buy/replace come hose change time. I'm lazy. Although many LSA manufacturers are going to the crimp type or Oetiker clamp in production. From a production point of view I can see them, but I'm not excited about the fact they are one time use. Probably because during fabrication you take it apart and put it together a couple times. I can see the point that if the clamp area is easily accessed, getting a tool in there is not a problem. I've never had a leak with an Oetiker clamp, but then again, I'm not going to use them on a fuel filter. That is why I prefer to do my bosses now with all the joints on the end of the boss and minimize the clamps. We can do that in the US on our own. Others have to ask or get permission for a deviation. Shame. On my filters I use the Colder products quick disconnects. I have a love/hate relationship with them, but for 20 years they only require new O rings on the male ends and have never leaked unless the O ring gets cut. That is why I also hate them. The stupid locking collar will cut the O ring if care is not taken. That way the hose clamps go on and stay on for 5 years on the quick disconnects. Note, I'm on year 7 with the hoses in 12AY with the lined EPA lined R7 or better carb hose. It is really holding up very well. It is still supple, no cracking seen on the ends, and no checking at the clamps. So, the original 1997 Europa supplied Ideal clamps of steel will probably corrode off before the hose starts looking bad. Maybe next year I'll do a hose change. Maybe not? I'm getting older and the hose change requirement must be met to comply with the Rotax manual on my 914. Every one of my cooling hoses has the original style compression clamps and frankly, in Florida they are corroding just a bit now and I can't stand to look at them. Time to upgrade, probably spring clamps on the cooling hoses I guess with all new engine and airframe hoses and clamps. That's two to three days work at my pace now days. Best Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of Griffo Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2021 7:42 PM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain All good comments Bud and I would never suggest you change from the "tried & true" if you are happy to stay with it. Just wanted to let you know, that in my opinion, a better alternative is now available. A few points; Your A&P should understand that the hose size must be correct for the fittings and that the hose clamp is primarily for security (hose retention) not leak prevention. Further, tightening hose clamps to the level suggest by your story can only lead to damaged leaking hoses. Don't know why the FI hoses would be so hard - I use exclusively Gates FI fuel hose (made by good old Uncle Sam), in 12 years have never had a problem with fitting or leaking. I also noticed your photos show regular "garden" type hose clamps - my advise - change to FI hose clamps (even if you dont want to use FI hose) -------- 46 Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501881%23501881&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cbb8bcdc1915d45fb4ab508d915a0d7a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637564602816568109%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=OrG8wHmN2piKZpayw6tY6xnmJ2gfeUZVvBvz7iU8TRQ%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:14:58 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Water Drain From: "Griffo" Good to talk with you Bud, I dont do so well with imperial/US measurements but can struggle through when I must. Back to the filters: Most of the fuel filters of this "type" have poor quality casings, have pleated "paper" type filters and many are opaque (making it impossible to asses contamination build up) The Hengst H102WK & H103WK are almost indestructible. Have gauze filters and clear casings - they are more like $10 each Australian, if bought singly but you can get them down to about $6 Au if purchased in quantity. Like you, I was initially skeptical of the non "barbed" male hose fitting. However using the right sized ID hose, cut to the correct length and supported, where appropriate, has resulted in 12 years/900hrs of no leaks, no inadvertent detachments. One other benefit of the non barb, is that the possibility of tearing the inside of the hose, when temporary removal is done, is eliminated. This then eliminates those troublesome little bits of "rubber" that may appear in your float bowl. The H103WK has a built in 90 degree bend, making tight applications that would benefit from this a breeze. -------- 46 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501885#501885 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.