Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:12 AM - Re: where to put OAT sensor? (trevord)
2. 02:58 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (Steve Ivell)
3. 05:37 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (Bud Yerly)
4. 06:42 AM - Re: Larger oil cooler - Classic (Bud Yerly)
5. 08:13 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk)
6. 05:19 PM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (William Daniell)
Message 1
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Subject: | Re: where to put OAT sensor? |
Thanks Bud and Griffo - very much appreciated.
All points taken -
Sometimes it is really nice to think of lots of options...
Sometimes you just want to know the correct way to do something - ha
I have THREE OAT sensors to mount (two AV30s and a Kanardia airspeed indicator
with TAS option) so I am thinking that I will just follow Buds option 1 and mount
them on a bracket in front of the air inlet filter.
One thing I have noticed on this forum, is that a "picture really is worth a thousand
words" Like most, I am an amateur aircraft builder so sometimes the terms
used I have to look up and then try to work out what the description means,
whereas a photo you get an immediate ah-ha moment - provided you can see enough
of the aircraft to work out where it is of course !
Thanks again for the input - much appreciated.
Regards
Trevor
--------
Trevor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501952#501952
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Subject: | Twisted fuselage, or? |
Hi John
As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just
about every single aircraft.
Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached
to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD
52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such
as Bud Yearly.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
Mob: 07971 128842
E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard
Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49
Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or?
--> <john.kirkegaard@gmail.com>
It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders.
I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times.
Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different methods.
First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions.
Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin bracket, on
both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line.
The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same level.
Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pin socket
is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one.
The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm higher
than the port side.
Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there.
And same for the foot wells.
So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rear wing
pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level between the doors.
But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my question to
you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave the rudder approx.
10-11 mm out of plumb?
Thanking in advance for any reply.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275.jpg
Message 3
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Subject: | Twisted fuselage, or? |
Steve and John,
Sorry I missed your post John.
Perhaps we should go off line to get into the nitty gritty. Many times it is how
we level and how much can we fudge.
I'd like to know some history on your build, Classic/XS then discuss. Email:
budyerly@msn.com
Leveling is a process.
I use a piece of aluminum angle and it on the wing spar bolts out of the cockpit
bulkhead and then set my 2 foot digital level on the angle.
To compare, I set the digital level on the stab tube facing forward. Don't flip
the level, it will most likely be slightly different.
If the wing pins and stab tube are level. That is great.
It is not uncommon to get the top on slightly askew.
If the two wing pins and stab tubes are level within .5 degrees on a fully complete
aircraft, I have to accept that.
In the build, once cockpit module is set, I level to the wing pins in the back
seat bulkhead. I then set my stab tube. The fuselage is flexible and once the
tube is set it is necessary to use blocking/timbers to set the stab and wing
pins dead even.
Then put the top on and drop a plumb bob down the tail post. Cleco the top in place
to get the tail vertical to the wings and stab tube. With the tailplanes
blocked up, pull the clecos and glue the top up. Put the top on and I screw
it down as you can read in my techniques area.
On a salvaged Classic Kit to straighten up the plane (my 12AY was one of these)
I replaced my stab tub bearings and releveled the tubes to the wing pins.
On the Classic foam fin, it is tough to do but essentially, I cut the fin off carefully,
then rebuild. It sounds awful but not much more than a couple days
and a lot of dust.
Then glue it up. Tape the joint line again and fill, fill, fill.
The XS is a pain. There are remedies but I'm afraid all are somewhat painful.
Again, it comes down to how you measure. Do I care if the area between the doors
at the top is slightly off? Not really. People don't notice that. They notice
when the fin is leaning in comparison to the wings and tailplane.
Email me direct and we'll hopefully find an acceptable solution.
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of Steve Ivell
Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2021 5:58 AM
Subject: RE: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or?
Hi John
As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just
about every single aircraft.
Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached
to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD
52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such
as Bud Yearly.
Kind Regards
Steve Ivell
Mob: 07971 128842
E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard
Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49
Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or?
--> <john.kirkegaard@gmail.com>
It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders.
I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times.
Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different methods.
First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions.
Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin bracket, on
both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line.
The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same level.
Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pin socket
is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one.
The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm higher
than the port side.
Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there.
And same for the foot wells.
So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rear wing
pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level between the doors.
But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my question to
you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave the rudder approx.
10-11 mm out of plumb?
Thanking in advance for any reply.
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501923%23501923&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caf4a62f5b0f84f5d2b3e08d917888978%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637566697452585737%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=bKNogrLOP9yd4%2FvetGVRHdHyhnUS7Z7uWvRClXF7RCI%3D&reserved=0
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Subject: | Larger oil cooler - Classic |
My two cents.
My original solution was to install the original oil cooler under the spinner without
a chin scoop.
The client made no attempt to duct out the bottom. In a test it was fine so he
flew like that for years until selling the plane.
It worked better than behind the glycol cooler. The LAA mod is better as it allows
for more room under the muffler for proper ducting.
In "Cooling 102" for the Jabiru, I show a duct arrangement, I've had excellent
results making the climb oil temps behave. A bit cool on cruise but 180 F in
summer at 7500 feet is not unacceptable. It runs too cool in the winter without
a plate on the front or better yet a cowl flap to control oil temp. Same idea
can work in the Classic, but it is tight depending on your muffler arrangement.
The same technique is used in the LAA mod for the inlet.
Another thought:
Creighton Smith (80 HP Classic) (crouton@well.com) uses a Lenovo glycol to oil
cooler. He recommends the larger one. It plumbs into the glycol cooler 1 inch
hose and oil lines and lies on the top of the engine in his Classic Mono.
Not very heavy either. No cowl cutting.
Oil and glycol temps run very similar and warm up is faster. On the hottest days,
he will cruise climb at 90 Kts for ideal temps in the climb during summer.
At high altitude cruise conditions, everything is steady about 200 ish Fahrenheit
.
His cowl exit is wider than usual to get better cooling in the Key West Florida
summers. He cut off the third leg of the original Classic muffler and put on
a single pipe exit to reduce back pressure on his 80 HP Rotax.
Winter is the hard nut to crack in aircraft. His was no different. He uses tape
to block his gills on the top cowl, tape across the radiators, and an in-flight
adjustable plate across the cowl exit to block his air exit to try to keep
it warm enough when temps are below freezing on start up and terribly cold at
altitude when he is flying in Canada. You may wish to talk to him and get real
data not just vague numbers.
Talk to your inspector and make sure your country rules allow modifications. Talk
to real users who have tried to solve the same issues. If you are in a hot
climate, or are only a summer flier it makes a difference on what approach you
take.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of michalm
Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 2:48 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Larger oil cooler - Classic
Hello fellow Europa enthusiasts!
I'm trying to solve the oil cooling issue in my 912 ULS powered Classic. I have
the standard cooling setup with a 10 row oil cooler behind the port radiator
and slightly enlarged cowl outlets. On hot days (30 C) and loaded to max weight
I very quickly reach 120 C oil temp during a climb of just 2000 ft. If I let
it cruise a bit it will go down to 115 C within a few minutes, 110 C if I reach
cooler air higher up. The coolant stays below 90 C, except the climb phase
where it reaches around 100 C. So far after reading your past discussions I came
up with 2 possible solutions:
1. Moving the oil cooler below the spinner.
2. Installing an oil/water heat exchanger to supplement the oil cooler.
The first is a bit invasive and as I'm not the original builder I don't feel fully
confident to perform, yet. The second one is tempting but I thought about
trying a simpler solution first: exchanging the oil cooler for a larger model.
Mocal makes various sizes - the 13 row should fit without issues and perhaps
the 16 row version will fit as well (if it can clear the exhaust pipe).
Has anyone tried this approach? How effective this may be without enlarging the
cowl outlets? According to charts on Mocal website I should expect a reduction
of oil temp of around 8 C (16 row vs 10 row), but that assumes a free air flow
which is most likely not the case inside the cowling.
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Message 5
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Subject: | Re: Twisted fuselage, or? |
Steve. It doesn't matter too much what the level of the lift pin sockets
are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that
the lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the
wing roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the
angle of incidence of both wings. (method in the builders' manual). They
may be identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin
sockets are not precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The
latter probably doesn't matter very much as long as the positioning of
the lift pins is mot too far from the centre of those alloy plates. The
rear lift pin socket should have been positioned married up with the
previously fixed wing pin with the wings checked as having equal AOI.
Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote:
> <SteveIvell@pestproof.co.uk>
>
> Hi John
>
> As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor
> variances on just about every single aircraft.
>
> Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it
> is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the
> gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
>
> Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better
> reply such as Bud Yearly.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Steve Ivell
> Mob: 07971 128842
> E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard
> Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or?
>
> --> <john.kirkegaard@gmail.com>
>
> It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow
> builders.
>
> I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times.
> Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different
> methods.
>
> First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions.
> Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin
> bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line.
> The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same
> level.
>
> Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing
> pin socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one.
>
> The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm
> higher than the port side.
>
> Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there.
> And same for the foot wells.
>
> So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the
> rear wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in
> level between the doors.
>
> But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my
> question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and
> leave the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb?
> Thanking in advance for any reply.
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275.jpg
>
Message 6
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Subject: | Re: Twisted fuselage, or? |
My tail is 1cm lower on one side due i think to fuse twist despite
measuring everything about a million times. It doesnt affect the flying
characteristics.
So it happens...
Id echo david's comments. Maybe if your fuse is tilted as it were it
doesnt matter provided the wings are the same incidence and structurally
sound.
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sat, May 15, 2021, 11:16 <davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk> wrote:
> Steve. It doesn=99t matter too much what the level of the lift pin
sockets
> are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that th
e
> lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the wing
> roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the angle
of
> incidence of both wings. (method in the builders=99 manual). They m
ay be
> identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin sockets are no
t
> precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The latter probably doesn
=99t
> matter very much as long as the positioning of the lift pins is mot too f
ar
> from the centre of those alloy plates. The rear lift pin socket should ha
ve
> been positioned married up with the previously fixed wing pin with the
> wings checked as having equal AOI. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ
>
>
> On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote:
>
k
> >
>
> Hi John
>
> As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances
> on just about every single aircraft.
>
> Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is
> attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross
> weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies.
>
> Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better repl
y
> such as Bud Yearly.
>
> Kind Regards
>
> Steve Ivell
> Mob: 07971 128842
> E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard
> Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or?
>
> --> <john.kirkegaard@gmail.com>
>
> It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders.
>
> I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times.
> Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different
> methods.
>
> First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions.
> Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin
> bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line.
> The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same
> level.
>
> Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pi
n
> socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one.
>
> The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm
> higher than the port side.
>
> Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there.
> And same for the foot wells.
>
> So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rea
r
> wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level
> between the doors.
>
> But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my
> question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave
> the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb?
> Thanking in advance for any reply.
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275bsp; -->
> <http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275.jpg>
> http://www.matronics.com/Nav===============
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>
>
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>
>
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