---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Sat 05/15/21: 6 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:12 AM - Re: where to put OAT sensor? (trevord) 2. 02:58 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (Steve Ivell) 3. 05:37 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (Bud Yerly) 4. 06:42 AM - Re: Larger oil cooler - Classic (Bud Yerly) 5. 08:13 AM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk) 6. 05:19 PM - Re: Twisted fuselage, or? (William Daniell) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:54 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: where to put OAT sensor? From: "trevord" Thanks Bud and Griffo - very much appreciated. All points taken - Sometimes it is really nice to think of lots of options... Sometimes you just want to know the correct way to do something - ha I have THREE OAT sensors to mount (two AV30s and a Kanardia airspeed indicator with TAS option) so I am thinking that I will just follow Buds option 1 and mount them on a bracket in front of the air inlet filter. One thing I have noticed on this forum, is that a "picture really is worth a thousand words" Like most, I am an amateur aircraft builder so sometimes the terms used I have to look up and then try to work out what the description means, whereas a photo you get an immediate ah-ha moment - provided you can see enough of the aircraft to work out where it is of course ! Thanks again for the input - much appreciated. Regards Trevor -------- Trevor Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501952#501952 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 02:58:30 AM PST US From: Steve Ivell Subject: RE: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? Hi John As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just about every single aircraft. Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies. Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such as Bud Yearly. Kind Regards Steve Ivell Mob: 07971 128842 E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49 Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? --> It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders. I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times. Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different methods. First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions. Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line. The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same level. Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pin socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one. The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm higher than the port side. Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there. And same for the foot wells. So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rear wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level between the doors. But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb? Thanking in advance for any reply. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923 Attachments: http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275.jpg ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 05:37:25 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? Steve and John, Sorry I missed your post John. Perhaps we should go off line to get into the nitty gritty. Many times it is how we level and how much can we fudge. I'd like to know some history on your build, Classic/XS then discuss. Email: budyerly@msn.com Leveling is a process. I use a piece of aluminum angle and it on the wing spar bolts out of the cockpit bulkhead and then set my 2 foot digital level on the angle. To compare, I set the digital level on the stab tube facing forward. Don't flip the level, it will most likely be slightly different. If the wing pins and stab tube are level. That is great. It is not uncommon to get the top on slightly askew. If the two wing pins and stab tubes are level within .5 degrees on a fully complete aircraft, I have to accept that. In the build, once cockpit module is set, I level to the wing pins in the back seat bulkhead. I then set my stab tube. The fuselage is flexible and once the tube is set it is necessary to use blocking/timbers to set the stab and wing pins dead even. Then put the top on and drop a plumb bob down the tail post. Cleco the top in place to get the tail vertical to the wings and stab tube. With the tailplanes blocked up, pull the clecos and glue the top up. Put the top on and I screw it down as you can read in my techniques area. On a salvaged Classic Kit to straighten up the plane (my 12AY was one of these) I replaced my stab tub bearings and releveled the tubes to the wing pins. On the Classic foam fin, it is tough to do but essentially, I cut the fin off carefully, then rebuild. It sounds awful but not much more than a couple days and a lot of dust. Then glue it up. Tape the joint line again and fill, fill, fill. The XS is a pain. There are remedies but I'm afraid all are somewhat painful. Again, it comes down to how you measure. Do I care if the area between the doors at the top is slightly off? Not really. People don't notice that. They notice when the fin is leaning in comparison to the wings and tailplane. Email me direct and we'll hopefully find an acceptable solution. Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of Steve Ivell Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2021 5:58 AM Subject: RE: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? Hi John As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances on just about every single aircraft. Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies. Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better reply such as Bud Yearly. Kind Regards Steve Ivell Mob: 07971 128842 E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49 Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? --> It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders. I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times. Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different methods. First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions. Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line. The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same level. Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pin socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one. The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm higher than the port side. Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there. And same for the foot wells. So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rear wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level between the doors. But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb? Thanking in advance for any reply. Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501923%23501923&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caf4a62f5b0f84f5d2b3e08d917888978%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637566697452585737%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=bKNogrLOP9yd4%2FvetGVRHdHyhnUS7Z7uWvRClXF7RCI%3D&reserved=0 Attachments: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F%2Ffiles%2Fimg_5202_275.jpg&data=04%7C01%7C%7Caf4a62f5b0f84f5d2b3e08d917888978%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637566697452595728%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=HvHem0nYjQd2D5jlfWLqk6iUY2OA0E8KGyT0eQC16jc%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 06:42:33 AM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Larger oil cooler - Classic My two cents. My original solution was to install the original oil cooler under the spinner without a chin scoop. The client made no attempt to duct out the bottom. In a test it was fine so he flew like that for years until selling the plane. It worked better than behind the glycol cooler. The LAA mod is better as it allows for more room under the muffler for proper ducting. In "Cooling 102" for the Jabiru, I show a duct arrangement, I've had excellent results making the climb oil temps behave. A bit cool on cruise but 180 F in summer at 7500 feet is not unacceptable. It runs too cool in the winter without a plate on the front or better yet a cowl flap to control oil temp. Same idea can work in the Classic, but it is tight depending on your muffler arrangement. The same technique is used in the LAA mod for the inlet. Another thought: Creighton Smith (80 HP Classic) (crouton@well.com) uses a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler. He recommends the larger one. It plumbs into the glycol cooler 1 inch hose and oil lines and lies on the top of the engine in his Classic Mono. Not very heavy either. No cowl cutting. Oil and glycol temps run very similar and warm up is faster. On the hottest days, he will cruise climb at 90 Kts for ideal temps in the climb during summer. At high altitude cruise conditions, everything is steady about 200 ish Fahrenheit .. His cowl exit is wider than usual to get better cooling in the Key West Florida summers. He cut off the third leg of the original Classic muffler and put on a single pipe exit to reduce back pressure on his 80 HP Rotax. Winter is the hard nut to crack in aircraft. His was no different. He uses tape to block his gills on the top cowl, tape across the radiators, and an in-flight adjustable plate across the cowl exit to block his air exit to try to keep it warm enough when temps are below freezing on start up and terribly cold at altitude when he is flying in Canada. You may wish to talk to him and get real data not just vague numbers. Talk to your inspector and make sure your country rules allow modifications. Talk to real users who have tried to solve the same issues. If you are in a hot climate, or are only a summer flier it makes a difference on what approach you take. Best Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of michalm Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2021 2:48 AM Subject: Europa-List: Larger oil cooler - Classic Hello fellow Europa enthusiasts! I'm trying to solve the oil cooling issue in my 912 ULS powered Classic. I have the standard cooling setup with a 10 row oil cooler behind the port radiator and slightly enlarged cowl outlets. On hot days (30 C) and loaded to max weight I very quickly reach 120 C oil temp during a climb of just 2000 ft. If I let it cruise a bit it will go down to 115 C within a few minutes, 110 C if I reach cooler air higher up. The coolant stays below 90 C, except the climb phase where it reaches around 100 C. So far after reading your past discussions I came up with 2 possible solutions: 1. Moving the oil cooler below the spinner. 2. Installing an oil/water heat exchanger to supplement the oil cooler. The first is a bit invasive and as I'm not the original builder I don't feel fully confident to perform, yet. The second one is tempting but I thought about trying a simpler solution first: exchanging the oil cooler for a larger model. Mocal makes various sizes - the 13 row should fit without issues and perhaps the 16 row version will fit as well (if it can clear the exhaust pipe). Has anyone tried this approach? How effective this may be without enlarging the cowl outlets? According to charts on Mocal website I should expect a reduction of oil temp of around 8 C (16 row vs 10 row), but that assumes a free air flow which is most likely not the case inside the cowling. Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D501888%23501888&data=04%7C01%7C%7C9e51c87085a34c3c30fc08d915db7c8b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637564854688776163%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=dGdA2E7qpRdb%2BJD%2FzsVTW8heaM5Jf%2F861JLjs7ODJ%2F4%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 08:13:47 AM PST US From: davidjoyce@doctors.org.uk Subject: Re: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? Steve. It doesn't matter too much what the level of the lift pin sockets are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that the lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the wing roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the angle of incidence of both wings. (method in the builders' manual). They may be identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin sockets are not precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The latter probably doesn't matter very much as long as the positioning of the lift pins is mot too far from the centre of those alloy plates. The rear lift pin socket should have been positioned married up with the previously fixed wing pin with the wings checked as having equal AOI. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote: > > > Hi John > > As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor > variances on just about every single aircraft. > > Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it > is attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the > gross weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies. > > Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better > reply such as Bud Yearly. > > Kind Regards > > Steve Ivell > Mob: 07971 128842 > E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard > Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? > > --> > > It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow > builders. > > I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times. > Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different > methods. > > First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions. > Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin > bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line. > The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same > level. > > Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing > pin socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one. > > The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm > higher than the port side. > > Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there. > And same for the foot wells. > > So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the > rear wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in > level between the doors. > > But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my > question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and > leave the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb? > Thanking in advance for any reply. > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923 > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275.jpg > ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 05:19:54 PM PST US From: William Daniell Subject: Re: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? My tail is 1cm lower on one side due i think to fuse twist despite measuring everything about a million times. It doesnt affect the flying characteristics. So it happens... Id echo david's comments. Maybe if your fuse is tilted as it were it doesnt matter provided the wings are the same incidence and structurally sound. William Daniell +1 786 878 0246 On Sat, May 15, 2021, 11:16 wrote: > Steve. It doesn=99t matter too much what the level of the lift pin sockets > are. What matters is the angle of incidence of the wings and also that th e > lift pins are securely fixed into the alloy plates embedded in the wing > roots. Before contemplating moving anything you should measure the angle of > incidence of both wings. (method in the builders=99 manual). They m ay be > identical whilst the placing of the lift pins and lift pin sockets are no t > precisely the same in relation to the fuselage. The latter probably doesn =99t > matter very much as long as the positioning of the lift pins is mot too f ar > from the centre of those alloy plates. The rear lift pin socket should ha ve > been positioned married up with the previously fixed wing pin with the > wings checked as having equal AOI. Regards, David Joyce, GXSDJ > > > On 2021-05-15 10:57, Steve Ivell wrote: > k > > > > Hi John > > As every aircraft is hand made I would expect there to be minor variances > on just about every single aircraft. > > Changing the rear wing pin sockets is a big process particularly as it is > attached to the internal cross tube which was added to increase the gross > weight. MOD 52. I'd leave well alone and see how it flies. > > Other members with much more experience may be able to give a better repl y > such as Bud Yearly. > > Kind Regards > > Steve Ivell > Mob: 07971 128842 > E-mail: steveivell@pestproof.co.uk > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of John Kirkgaard > Sent: 14 May 2021 13:49 > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: Twisted fuselage, or? > > --> > > It looks like I will need some very good advice from you fellow builders. > > I have measured the fixtures and torque tubes on my Europa a few times. > Unfortunately I come to the same result in spite of using different > methods. > > First I level up the fuselage making it 100% level in both directions. > Then I measure down to the center of the pin hole forward wing pin > bracket, on both sides. Using a horizontal laser-line. > The elevation of the two wing fixings are found to be in exactly same > level. > > Then measuring the level of the rear fixings shows that starboard wing pi n > socket is sitting 8 mm higher than the port one. > > The measuring the Flap tube I find that the Starboard side is also 9 mm > higher than the port side. > > Going to the Tail plane Torque Tube I find the same picture there. > And same for the foot wells. > > So the solution seems to be quite forward: change the position of the rea r > wing pin sockets, and ignore, that the fuselage will not be in level > between the doors. > > But... During all measuring, the rudder is absolutely plumb. And my > question to you guys: what will happen if I correct everything and leave > the rudder approx. 10-11 mm out of plumb? > Thanking in advance for any reply. > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=501923#501923 > > > Attachments: > > http://forums.matronics.com//files/img_5202_275bsp; --> > > http://www.matronics.com/Nav=============== ======== > http://www.matronic================== = > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.