---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 06/01/21: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:12 AM - Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded (John Wighton) 2. 01:24 AM - Re: Airfoil Profiles (John Wighton) 3. 02:56 AM - Re: 3D Printer (Areba21) 4. 07:33 AM - Re: Airfoil Profiles (Area-51) 5. 07:50 AM - Re: Re: Airfoil Profiles (Rowland Carson) 6. 08:42 AM - Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine (Erich Trombley) 7. 09:21 AM - Re: Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine (Pete Zut) 8. 10:31 AM - Re: Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine (D McFadyean) 9. 12:56 PM - Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded (JonathanMilbank) 10. 05:03 PM - Re: Airfoil Profiles (Area-51) 11. 05:12 PM - Re: Re: Airfoil Profiles (Pete Zut) 12. 06:00 PM - Re: Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded (Bud Yerly) 13. 07:13 PM - Re: Re: Airfoil Profiles (Fred Klein) 14. 07:36 PM - Re: Re: Airfoil Profiles (Pete) 15. 11:09 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle) 16. 11:19 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:44 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded From: "John Wighton" Jonathan, Well done for 'coming out' over an overspeed occurrence - we have all done it to a larger or lesser extent and the questions you pose are very relevant. I am not speaking for Europa Aircraft (current or past) or for the Club, however, generally, the flap limiting speed is determined having conducted a stress analysis of the whole system. The failure mode that causes the first failure or lowest reserve factor (RF) is associated with a speed within the V-N envelope. A suitable factor is applied (which in any case will include at least 1.5 for LIMIT to ULTIMATE and, most likely, additional factors such as 1.15 fitting factor (at joints) or even 1.33 (for regularly dismantled items). For composite structure failures, there are yet more factors that take into account the environmental influences (e.g. temperature, humidity) and variability of build standard. Regarding loads, as air pressure is proportional to the square of the airspeed the loads can rise very quickly. For your overspeed occurrence, the flaps would have seen a dynamic pressure of approx 1.45 (i.e. 100^2/83^2 = 1.45, hence 45% overload). By definition this is somewhere between LIMIT and ULTIMATE load levels, hence some detrimental deformation may have occurred. The tg Owners Manual states "Vfe Maximum flap extended speed is the highest speed permissible with the flaps in the prescribed extended position". PoH states Vfe as 83kts. Vfe (max speed for extending/retracting flaps) implies the actuator is the weak link. Vf would be a flap limiting speed. You have done exactly the right thing, you have inspected the system for deformation. It is likely that no damage has occurred at all. If damage has occurred, the Europa actuator end attachment holes may have ovalised very slightly (rattle tested?) but I suspect the flap end-pin and bearing (and the attachment into the flap) are over-engineered and will be unaffected. Maybe you could add an additional disassembly/inspection to the flap actuator end fittings when the aircraft is under it's next scheduled maintenance. I suspect Bud may also have some useful input! Regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502172#502172 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:24:13 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles From: "John Wighton" The aerofoils are hybrid, derived from first principles and hence unique. If you wish to do your own analysis I suggest you ask Europa Aircraft for the external profile - David Stanbridge recently made an offer to share their 3D scanned data of the Europa OML. Please bear in mind that the section changes root to tip, hence intermediate wing rib coordinate stations are needed to correctly simulate the wing. Some online CAD models of the Europa exists, however, I would be cautious of using them as their accuracy is quite poor. FYI I was fortunate to work at BAe Hatfield under Don Dykins for a short time during my apprenticeship (moving on to the stress office as a career). The only other claim I have to have known him personally was that he had the same preference for cars as myself - he brought a Ford Capri 2.8i I had owned. -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502173#502173 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 02:56:14 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: 3D Printer From: "Areba21" When I say, you'll agree with me. Adhesive printers make your life much easier when you have to print a large number of adhesives or labels Stickers from our shops are often difficult to get. You're not going to find them in shops if you're searching for the sticker for your preferred TV shows the just visit https://printerhow.com, your favorite anime, work-related issues, ID text, massages or even decorating your home using colorful and light sticks. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502174#502174 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 07:33:49 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles From: "Area-51" Thanks for the insight there John! Have got todays results into CAD already. Your right on the hybrid stance; looks a little like an Eppler or Boeing profile (stable up to 400kt cruise)... which doesnt surprise me given the performance envelope... Will see if the factory are willing to supply any data. My experience on this level of study generally ends up with reverse engineering with laser scanning due to highly guarded secret squirrel bunker information that can be measured off any particular given factory part purchased... will just have to use the sunlight to tell me where those stations are and plot out the whole wing accordingly... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502178#502178 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 07:50:42 AM PST US From: Rowland Carson Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles On 2021-06-01, at 15:33, Area-51 wrote: > My experience on this level of study generally ends up with reverse engineering with laser scanning due to highly guarded secret squirrel bunker information that can be measured off any particular given factory part purchased... will just have to use the sunlight to tell me where those stations are and plot out the whole wing accordingly... Area-51 - not sure if I missed something earlier in this thread, but just out of idle curiosity, what is your intended use of the data once captured? in friendship Rowland | Rowland Carson ... that's Rowland with a 'w' ... | http://www.rowlandcarson.org.uk | Skype, Twitter: rowland_carson Facebook: Rowland Carson ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 08:42:23 AM PST US From: Erich Trombley Subject: Europa-List: Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine Chris, Glad to hear you had a nice cross country. While it is true I have the ability to choose something less than full flaps for landing, I make all my landings full flaps, even in windy/gusty conditions. The view over the nose is better, plus a lower touchdown speed and less float. As mentioned in my original post I do, however, use partial flaps for takeoff. With your fly off almost complete, hopefully you are able to make OSH. Regards, Erich N28ET Classic Mono 914 ____________________________________________________________ Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more On Punishments for Church Sex Abuse, a 'Significant Rewrite' http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b655246175d551840d9st02duc1 Supreme Court Move Means J&J Owes Women $2B http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b6552485a29551840d9st02duc2 After Osaka's Surprise Withdrawal, a Lively Debate http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b65524a912a551840d9st02duc3 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 09:21:03 AM PST US From: Pete Zut Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine Further to Erich's excellent comments, fwiw, in the std mono, if full flaps is causing issues on a short strip, I pull the flaps up partially once airborne (my speed builds quickly once off the ground), allowing for better climb. I have not yet found it to be limiting, other than it pops off a bumpy strip prematurely. On a typical longer runway, I simply let the speed build to Vx before stowing the flaps all the way in one motion - typically at 2/3's runway. In my XS "dream" build, I am leaving them coupled. I like keeping things simple :) Cheers PeteZ On Tue., Jun. 1, 2021, 11:50 a.m. Erich Trombley, wrote: > > > > Chris, > > Glad to hear you had a nice cross country. While it is true I have the > ability to choose something less than full flaps for landing, I make all my > landings full flaps, even in windy/gusty conditions. The view over the > nose is better, plus a lower touchdown speed and less float. As mentioned > in my original post I do, however, use partial flaps for takeoff. > > With your fly off almost complete, hopefully you are able to make OSH. > > Regards, > Erich > N28ET Classic Mono 914 > > > ____________________________________________________________ > Sponsored by > https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more > > On Punishments for Church Sex Abuse, a 'Significant Rewrite' > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b655246175d551840d9st02duc1 > Supreme Court Move Means J&J Owes Women $2B > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b6552485a29551840d9st02duc2 > After Osaka's Surprise Withdrawal, a Lively Debate > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b65524a912a551840d9st02duc3 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 10:31:31 AM PST US From: D McFadyean Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa Monowheel - Cross Country Flying Machine <> How long is the runway and what surface/condition? I'm 'struggling' with the acceleration of a new prop I'm trying and would like a comparison. Duncan McF. > On 01 June 2021 at 17:20 Pete Zut wrote: > > Further to Erich's excellent comments, fwiw, in the std mono, if full flaps is causing issues on a short strip, I pull the flaps up partially once airborne (my speed builds quickly once off the ground), allowing for better climb. I have not yet found it to be limiting, other than it pops off a bumpy strip prematurely. > > On a typical longer runway, I simply let the speed build to Vx before stowing the flaps all the way in one motion - typically at 2/3's runway. > > In my XS "dream" build, I am leaving them coupled. I like keeping things simple :) > > Cheers > PeteZ > > On Tue., Jun. 1, 2021, 11:50 a.m. Erich Trombley, wrote: > > > > > Chris, > > > > Glad to hear you had a nice cross country. While it is true I have the ability to choose something less than full flaps for landing, I make all my landings full flaps, even in windy/gusty conditions. The view over the nose is better, plus a lower touchdown speed and less float. As mentioned in my original post I do, however, use partial flaps for takeoff. > > > > With your fly off almost complete, hopefully you are able to make OSH. > > > > Regards, > > Erich > > N28ET Classic Mono 914 > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________ > > Sponsored by https://www.newser.com/?utm_source=part&utm_medium=uol&utm_campaign=rss_taglines_more > > > > On Punishments for Church Sex Abuse, a 'Significant Rewrite' > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b655246175d551840d9st02duc1 > > Supreme Court Move Means J&J Owes Women $2B > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b6552485a29551840d9st02duc2 > > After Osaka's Surprise Withdrawal, a Lively Debate > > http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/60b65524a912a551840d9st02duc3 > > > > ========== > > pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List > > ========== > > FORUMS - > > eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com > > ========== > > WIKI - > > errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com > > ========== > > b Site - > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution > > ========== > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 12:56:59 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded From: "JonathanMilbank" John, Thanks for your prompt response. If by "actuator" you're referring to the electric motor which I believe was originally from a Ford car window motor, I'm happy to report that I don't have one. My aircraft was converted by the late great Neville Eyre from monowheel to tri-gear. I took his good advice and retained the cockpit lever which is now only connected to the flaps; this also saves weight and complication. So having checked everything very carefully and also the flap push-pull rod connected to the lever, I'm quite confident that no damage seems to have occurred. Thanks again. Jonathan Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502193#502193 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 05:03:16 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles From: "Area-51" Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502194#502194 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 05:12:59 PM PST US From: Pete Zut Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like! ;-) PeteZ On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 wrote: > goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> > > Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502194#502194 > > ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 06:00:40 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded Jonathan, I'm tied up at the moment and you will all be relieved for a short and fati gue influenced answer on flap over speeds. John W gives some sage advice. Inspection after any overspeed or overstres s is the key to continued airworthiness. Pull the bracket covers, open up the fuselage D tube and inspect all attachments. Look for cracked glass, d elamination, and bolts that have elongated. Some analysis from the top of my very tired head. In the US the Vfe is supposed to be the speed at which maximum design G can be loaded momentarily with the flaps extended. This is an iterative probl em. Once Vfe is set or calculated, then there is another requirement that the V speed must allow for a 1.3 times overspeed (per se) without exceeding design structural limits. That was always concerning to me in my studies. The flap is an airfoil that is fixed to the wing of course and the maximu m speed of a flap setting has to be at the limit times the safety factors. Therefore, we see in many aircraft a Vf1, 2 etc. based on the increment of flap extension speed limits to address the process. So, we see Vf1 of 10 degrees is highest and 20 degrees a little slower, and 30 degrees is quite low. The Europa was designed for one flap setting. It is interesting that the flap drive of the Airbus style externally hinged flap, that our little Europa has, actually takes very little force to exte nd and retract. (The plain flap extension load is horrendously large in co mparison.) These hinged flap designs were brilliant and worth the drag of the brackets . This extension /retraction force is evident in the mono where extension and retraction between 60-90 KIAS has virtually no difference in gear exten sion effort. Yes, the brackets are draggy, but the loads are low and the f lap efficiency is quite good. One builder even installed a manual flap ext ension handle (although I don't know who it was, he was a Flight Crafters client.) Aerodynamically, the pitching moment, lift and drag of the flap i s calculated and the hinge point of the flap and the drive pin are set to r educe the load on the drive mechanism, simplify the gap flow accomplishment , and simplify construction. All brilliantly executed. As a result, I don 't worry as much about the flap drive, I worry more about the flap attach b rackets in an overspeed. Looking at the flap sum of forces for this type flap, The force on the fla ps when extended to nominally 27 degrees is basically a slotted flap with a lift coefficient of somewhere around 2.0 assumed. So, the force of lift vertically on the flap is Cl*1/2* (density)* V square d in fps nominally at 83knots and a roughly 7.5 square foot flap is (2x1/ 2x.00237x19643x7.5)=348 pounds of force upwards. The drag on the flap wi ll be roughly 7 pounds. The pitching moment of the flap will be another co uple of pounds. The moments are summed through the flap mechanism attach p oint and the resultant flap drive pin position load is a small number. Sor ry, I=92m not going to do actual calculations. In a picture it kind of loo ks like this picture attached. More math in public to follow: The load at say 1.3 times 83 knot Vfe is nominally 108 knots. Re-plugging numbers the forces go up significantly: 2x1/2 x.00237x33269x7.5 +590 pound s of force upwards. If I load the aircraft to full G (3.8 Gs) at 108 knots , that 590 pounds times 3.8 or 2240 pounds. So, some poor engineer will calculate all this out for the structural load. Figuring 50,000 psi (working hand laid glass strength) with a glass thick ness of .009, 4 layers, the glass to flox gap load bearing area of about 1. 5 square inches (that flox hole in the bracket), and a one foot hinge momen t arm in a shear mode (roughly half the tensile strength) means, in extrem ely rough numbers a single bracket will hold 1300 pounds of force times thr ee brackets or 3900 pounds. Hence the flap attachment is in very rough ter ms (non exactly measured) about 3900/2240 or 1.74 times stronger than I nee d, which is greater than my safety factor of 1.5 over the 1.3 V of 108 knot s (figuring it very roughly) in a max overspeed. Again, very rough numbers .. If I simply up the load the flap area and stuff and multiply by 1.5 times 1 .5 (the super factor the Europa is designed to) based on the normal 83 knot forces I'm sure it will come out similarly . So, the extremely rough numbers give me a ball park confidence that althoug h I am over speeding my flaps, and must inspect my aircraft attachment poin ts I will concentrate my inspection on the flap bracket attachment to the f lap and the wing attach points first. Then I will do a retract test and ma ke sure my flap rig is correct (bent flap tube is a possibility), then insp ect my flap drive attachments/welds/glass supports to assure that they are still sound. Just my thoughts. Don=92t overspeed the flaps if you can help it. I have had a number of demo/checkout flights inadvertently extend flaps in the 90 Knot range for the last 15 years on poor old N12AY because they just don=92 t realize how clean the plane is. In a 914 if you don=92t make a very larg e power reduction from the climbing crosswind to downwind level off, you hi t 90 Knots pretty quick. Failure to monitor airspeed in the final turn can build speed rapidly also even with full flaps. I can=92t tell you how many secondhand owners end up crossing the threshold still doing over 83 Knots. If you make the speed offender do the inspection panel and cover open up and then put it back together, they pay attention to the airspeed more clos ely. Stay within the limits. IF you exceed them, inspect and repair as necessar y. Don=92t just rattle the flaps and blow it off. Best Regards, Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of John Wighton Sent: Tuesday, June 01, 2021 4:12 AM Subject: Europa-List: Re: Flap limiting speed 83 kts exceeded john@wighton.net>> Jonathan, Well done for 'coming out' over an overspeed occurrence - we have all done it to a larger or lesser extent and the questions you pose are very relevan t. I am not speaking for Europa Aircraft (current or past) or for the Club, ho wever, generally, the flap limiting speed is determined having conducted a stress analysis of the whole system. The failure mode that causes the firs t failure or lowest reserve factor (RF) is associated with a speed within t he V-N envelope. A suitable factor is applied (which in any case will incl ude at least 1.5 for LIMIT to ULTIMATE and, most likely, additional factors such as 1.15 fitting factor (at joints) or even 1.33 (for regularly disman tled items). For composite structure failures, there are yet more factors that take into account the environmental influences (e.g. temperature, humi dity) and variability of build standard. Regarding loads, as air pressure is proportional to the square of the airsp eed the loads can rise very quickly. For your overspeed occurrence, the fl aps would have seen a dynamic pressure of approx 1.45 (i.e. 100^2/83^2 = 1.45, hence 45% overload). By definition this is somewhere between LIMIT a nd ULTIMATE load levels, hence some detrimental deformation may have occurr ed. The tg Owners Manual states "Vfe Maximum flap extended speed is the highest speed permissible with the flaps in the prescribed extended position". PoH states Vfe as 83kts. Vfe (max speed for extending/retracting flaps) im plies the actuator is the weak link. Vf would be a flap limiting speed. You have done exactly the right thing, you have inspected the system for d eformation. It is likely that no damage has occurred at all. If damage has occurred, the Europa actuator end attachment holes may have o valised very slightly (rattle tested?) but I suspect the flap end-pin and b earing (and the attachment into the flap) are over-engineered and will be unaffected. Maybe you could add an additional disassembly/inspection to the flap actuat or end fittings when the aircraft is under it's next scheduled maintenance. I suspect Bud may also have some useful input! Regards John -------- John Wighton Europa XS trigear G-IPOD Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D502172%23502172&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3 5529c5618204f09345408d924d581a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0% 7C637581321682102940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2 luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=XtDaXBExfUW9W2ru0Kz zH7JOxEs6e7wID1iMpb9IMxI%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7C3552 9c5618204f09345408d924d581a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 37581321682102940%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=iOyukBDSGCD%2B55qYSid7 t3%2FE2WVSbZIL3T%2FOu8GsVOk%3D&reserved=0 %2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C35529c5618204f09345408d9 24d581a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637581321682102940%7C Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=UbU5ysD%2BsWreuUC7QkZl6smus1tbMG%2F3%2FPrW 3qtvGBE%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7C35529c5618204f09345408d924 d581a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637581321682112935%7CUn known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=peDaqV%2FUc4p7iBr%2FsND%2FlUP6IekF209k%2BzJq iJqjg2w%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwww.matronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C01%7C%7C35529c5618204f0 9345408d924d581a2%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637581321682 112935%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6 Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=eJ4uBMdmb13prIDiZR4LScp49Zi%2Bu%2 F5PGxnVTH4Tmi0%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 07:13:14 PM PST US From: Fred Klein Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles Petebelow are my best efforts in that regardI too am very curious as to what a rigorous analysis will show...Fred > On Jun 1, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Pete Zut wrote: > > Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like! ;-) > > PeteZ > > On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 > wrote: > > > Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502194#502194 > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 07:36:33 PM PST US From: Pete Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Airfoil Profiles Indeed Fred, yours looks =9Cspitfire perfect=9D. Gorgeous! -PeteZ > On Jun 1, 2021, at 10:31 PM, Fred Klein wrote: > > =EF=BBPetebelow are my best efforts in that regardI t oo am very curious as to what a rigorous analysis will show...Fred > >> On Jun 1, 2021, at 5:12 PM, Pete Zut wrote: >> >> Please let us know what the ideal drag-minimizing wing/fuse fairing looks like! ;-) >> >> PeteZ >> >> On Tue, Jun 1, 2021 at 7:09 PM Area-51 wr ote: com> >>> >>> Hi Rowland, basic CFD studies of complete airframe model using OpenFoam >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Read this topic online here: >>> >>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=502194#502194 >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 11:09:19 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. 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Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List: smith@machine.domain.com smith@domain.com Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to the List. ************************************** *** Enclosure Support on the Lists *** ************************************** Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the content of enclosures. These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics Lists: 1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists. 2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists. 3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site. 4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives. 5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature. 6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed: bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk. 7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down the process of posting the message !! Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists. 1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post 30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these folks and the rest of us, for that matter. 2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000 pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less. Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it! http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx Look for the link "Image Resizer" 3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother. And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even questionable. !! 4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and BE COURTEOUS! Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server for long time viewing and availability. ******************* *** Digest Mode *** ******************* Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started. This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:" and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting of a line of underscores. Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list. To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form described above, and just select the Digest version of the List. http://www.matronics.com/subscribe Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable. Now some caveats: * Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the digest List. * If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of the day. * If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please *do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*. **************************** *** List Digest Browser *** **************************** An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found at the following location: http://www.matronics.com/digest ***************************************** *** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag *** ***************************************** At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the message: do not archive Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List email distribution as normal. ********************************************** ***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes ***** ********************************************** Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look for your email address and a possible reason for your removal. The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the Lists you will find record of it at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice. ******************************* *** List Member Information *** ******************************* If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and paper mail address in the following format: smith@somehost.com Joe Smith 123 Airport Lane Tower, CA 91234-1234 098-765-1234 w 123-456-7890 h Please forward this information to the following email address: requests@matronics.com I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT be used for any other commercial purpose. **************************************** *** Realtime Web Email List Browsing *** **************************************** Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject, Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon). You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List Browser Interface in view-mode. http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list ******************************************* *** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface *** ******************************************* A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content. content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to the web Forums. You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login. If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the Email Distribution of the List, however. The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL: http://forums.matronics.com ********************************* *** Matronics Email List Wiki *** ********************************* In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at: http://wiki.matronics.com The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately. While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any images and email it to: wiki-support@matronics.com One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct a Wiki page for you. Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that post and convert it into a Wiki page. ********************* *** List Archives *** ********************* A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is available on line. The archive file information is available via the Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below: * Europa-List.FAQ - Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question page (this document). * Europa-Archive.digest.complete - Complete file with most of the email header info removed and page breaks inserted between messages. * Europa-Archive.digest.vol-?? - Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that can more easily handled. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. * Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z - Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods. Download Via FTP ---------------- The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.) ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives Download Via Web ---------------- The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found toward the bottom of the following web page: http://www.matronics.com/archives ****************************************** *** Complete List Web Archive Browsing *** ****************************************** All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed. http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa ***************************************** **** High-Speed Archive Search Engine *** ***************************************** You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently available List archives. http://www.matronics.com/search **************************** *** File and Photo Share *** **************************** With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures and other data with members of the List without having to forward a copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email them to: pictures@matronics.com !! ==> Please including the following information with each submission: 1) Email Lists that they are related to. 2) Your Full Name. 3) Your Email Address. 4) One line Subject description. 5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic. 6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to process them every few days. Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new Share is available and what the direct URL to it is. For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main Index Page: http://www.matronics.com/photoshare ************************** *** List Archive CDROM *** ************************** A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make great gifts! http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM ********************************** *** List Support Contributions *** ********************************** The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members. You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month, I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they are comfortable. I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated by companies that are themselves List members. Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the variety of services found here. Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude. Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in. The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and sending a personal check. If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to support its continued operation? http://www.matronics.com/contributions Thank you! Matt Dralle Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 11:19:16 PM PST US From: Matt Dralle Subject: Europa-List: Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines Dear Listers, Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the following URL: http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html Thank you, Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator ****************************************************************************** Europa-List Usage Guidelines ****************************************************************************** The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List. You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein. Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result in the removal of the subscribers from the List. Europa-List Policy Statement The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established: - Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc. - THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it. - Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and responses. - Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address, aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary space in the archive. - DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the web page or FAQ first. - If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it easy to find threads in the archive. - When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated! - When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the "reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your response to the original poster. You might have to actively address your response with the original poster's email address. - DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large. - When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly contribute something valuable. - Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing. - Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by List members promoting their respective products or items for sale should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to everyone, including those who provide products to the entire community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists. ------- [This is an automated posting.] do not archive ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Other Matronics Email List Services ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post A New Message europa-list@matronics.com UN/SUBSCRIBE http://www.matronics.com/subscription List FAQ http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm Web Forum Interface To Lists http://forums.matronics.com Matronics List Wiki http://wiki.matronics.com Full Archive Search Engine http://www.matronics.com/search 7-Day List Browse http://www.matronics.com/browse/europa-list Browse Digests http://www.matronics.com/digest/europa-list Browse Other Lists http://www.matronics.com/browse Live Online Chat! http://www.matronics.com/chat Archive Downloading http://www.matronics.com/archives Photo Share http://www.matronics.com/photoshare Other Email Lists http://www.matronics.com/emaillists Contributions http://www.matronics.com/contribution ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.