Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 08:33 AM - Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution Today! (Matt Dralle)
1. 01:05 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (graeme bird)
2. 03:18 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (John Wighton)
3. 04:03 AM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (D McFadyean)
4. 04:11 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (JonathanMilbank)
5. 04:45 AM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Brian Davies)
6. 09:44 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (trevord)
7. 10:01 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (trevord)
8. 10:26 AM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Pete)
9. 12:33 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Brian Davies)
10. 12:47 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Pete)
11. 01:19 PM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (John Wighton)
12. 01:28 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Pete)
13. 02:04 PM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (trevord)
14. 03:54 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Kingsley Hurst)
15. 04:32 PM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (trevord)
16. 05:02 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Pete Zut)
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| Subject: | Coming Soon - The List of Contributors - Please Make A Contribution |
Today!
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
i am curious as to the incident that prompted this mod, how the LAA came to produce
and issue it and also make the required parts available through its shop.
Was the club involved?
--------
Graeme Bird
Kit 3 in build (Gregory) mono Classic 914 xs fwfwd Woodcomp
Kit 2 G-PATS - (kesterton) Mono Classic 912 warpdrive
Kit 1 G-UMPY - Mono Classic/XS FFW 912S, Woodcomp SR3000/3W CS, G(@)gdbmk.co.uk
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503843#503843
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
My opinion on this MPD (not that there appears to have been any consultation about
it):-
An MPD for a checklist item? OK, I can see the implications of not shutting the
door can be serious, but so could many other things that are on the CHECKLIST.
Will we need to tie a long piece of string to the pitot cover (to remind us to
remove it) or to the control locks?
I have taxied out with the door ajar (I stick my arm out and hold onto the external
door handle) but have a check item that reminds me to close the door and
latch it. DOORS CLOSED & LATCHED.
The rear pin is prone to miss its hole if the weather is warm (doors expand and
try to straighten themselves), but having a pin-stop external to the aircraft
is not desirable.
The LAA has taken the lead on this, does anybody know what Europa Aircraft is not
supporting this MPD? How about progress with the MUUW increase and the BRS
Mod?
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503844#503844
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
stop
The reality is that some doors continue to be lost , which poses a direct risk
to third parties. Maybe it's just a*se-covering, but I don't see it as unreasonable,
even through I object to the increase in weight, wetted area and drag!!
Duncan McF.
> On 05 November 2021 at 10:18 John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> My opinion on this MPD (not that there appears to have been any consultation
about it):-
>
> An MPD for a checklist item? OK, I can see the implications of not shutting
the door can be serious, but so could many other things that are on the CHECKLIST.
>
> Will we need to tie a long piece of string to the pitot cover (to remind us to
remove it) or to the control locks?
>
> I have taxied out with the door ajar (I stick my arm out and hold onto the external
door handle) but have a check item that reminds me to close the door and
latch it. DOORS CLOSED & LATCHED.
>
> The rear pin is prone to miss its hole if the weather is warm (doors expand and
try to straighten themselves), but having a pin-stop external to the aircraft
is not desirable.
>
> The LAA has taken the lead on this, does anybody know what Europa Aircraft is
not supporting this MPD? How about progress with the MUUW increase and the BRS
Mod?
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503844#503844
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Some of you aren't going to like my response, but as a retired military and commercial
pilot of 42 years experience, it is my belief that this MPD is good. Checklists
alone aren't a sufficient safeguard for this known Europa problem. I
have both taken off with the rear shoot-bolt not engaged and on another occasion
been distracted to the extent of somehow missing this item on the checklist,
but became aware of something amiss just before getting airborne.
During my aviation career of mostly multi crew flying, I have experienced and also
been made aware of others who have somehow missed items on checklists. For
almost 25 years I've had an ongoing concern about this particular weakness in
the Europa canopy design; worrying when other group members are flying my aircraft.
I tried remedies of my own, including an additional handle inside the canopy
towards the rear, to facilitate pilots pulling the rear corner inwards.
This MPD seems to be a commonsense solution.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503846#503846
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
I am sure we all agree that this is a human factors issue involving basic
piloting procedures and should not need fixing, but there have now been 8
instances of doors departing the aircraft and the last one involved impact
damage to the tail plane and the AAIB demanding action. Not sure why
Europa are not leading the charge but this is a relatively low cost easy
thing to do. The LAA are even creating a Mod kit which they do not need to
to do. There is also the option of a DiY fix. A lot of work has gone on
behind the scenes on this.
Regards
Brian Davies
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On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 10:21 AM John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
> My opinion on this MPD (not that there appears to have been any
> consultation about it):-
>
> An MPD for a checklist item? OK, I can see the implications of not
> shutting the door can be serious, but so could many other things that are
> on the CHECKLIST.
>
> Will we need to tie a long piece of string to the pitot cover (to remind
> us to remove it) or to the control locks?
>
> I have taxied out with the door ajar (I stick my arm out and hold onto the
> external door handle) but have a check item that reminds me to close the
> door and latch it. DOORS CLOSED & LATCHED.
>
> The rear pin is prone to miss its hole if the weather is warm (doors
> expand and try to straighten themselves), but having a pin-stop external to
> the aircraft is not desirable.
>
> The LAA has taken the lead on this, does anybody know what Europa Aircraft
> is not supporting this MPD? How about progress with the MUUW increase and
> the BRS Mod?
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503844#503844
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hello all,
I am completing 272 which was started by Tony Krzyzewski here in New Zealand. One
of his early modifications means that this aircraft has THREE bolts securing
each door - there is one in the middle - Also the hydraulic lifter was repositioned
from original (I now think this is standard) and he spent a lot of time
making the doors fit well, so the doors close properly each time, every time
and do not bulge out that I understand was a problem from the native design.
I am three years into completing this aircraft with a year to go and it has not
been out in the sunshine yet, so I am not sure if the door will bulge and make
it fit differently when hot. But considering the aircraft is experimental, should
not each builder decide if a change should be made and how it should be
done, with your UK LAA just suggesting a possible fix ?
New Zealand tends to "follow suit" with CAA/FAA directives, but I am not sure about
the LAA in this case.
I was considering a mod for the future, where I could optionally take a door off
and replace with a specially made half-door for sunny day flying (at lower speed)
this would be quite nice I think and of course this would be an experimental
door - is this not the whole point of experimental aircraft, Innovation through
careful experimenting ?
Regards
Trevor
--------
Trevor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503927#503927
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/0400door1_copy_108.jpg
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hello again,
In response to the mention about adding a string to a pitot cover as if this was
a bad idea or overkill...
A friend of mine wrote-off a virtually new Beach Baron by leaving the pitot cover
on and when noticing NIL airpeed, rejecting the takeoff - unfortunately the
nose wheel came off on the grass over-run and crumpled the fuselage - very odd
looking at a new wrecked aircraft - he was undamaged but it took a year to get
it all sorted from a single moment of distraction.
I INTEND to have string on my pitot cover, connected to the other covers for things
like the fuel vent under the aircraft (Bud Yerly design) which is to protect
against the mud dauber wasp from making a home in it and the string to protect
me from forgetting to remove that cover which could easily be missed with
dire consequences - if all covers are all connected with string, then not only
can I not forget to remove them, they will be difficult to lose. I saw this
idea posted somewhere else and thought it a really good idea.
Just a thought
Regards
Trevor
--------
Trevor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503928#503928
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Fwiw. My bird has those third bolts, but alas, the rear bolts still can miss the
sill.
But my precheck and idiot light is good enough for me. (did i say that put loud?
Lol)
Knock on wood.
Pete
C-gnpz
> On Nov 5, 2021, at 12:55 PM, trevord <trevord@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am completing 272 which was started by Tony Krzyzewski here in New Zealand.
One of his early modifications means that this aircraft has THREE bolts securing
each door - there is one in the middle - Also the hydraulic lifter was repositioned
from original (I now think this is standard) and he spent a lot of time
making the doors fit well, so the doors close properly each time, every time
and do not bulge out that I understand was a problem from the native design.
>
> I am three years into completing this aircraft with a year to go and it has not
been out in the sunshine yet, so I am not sure if the door will bulge and make
it fit differently when hot. But considering the aircraft is experimental,
should not each builder decide if a change should be made and how it should be
done, with your UK LAA just suggesting a possible fix ?
>
> New Zealand tends to "follow suit" with CAA/FAA directives, but I am not sure
about the LAA in this case.
>
> I was considering a mod for the future, where I could optionally take a door
off and replace with a specially made half-door for sunny day flying (at lower
speed) this would be quite nice I think and of course this would be an experimental
door - is this not the whole point of experimental aircraft, Innovation
through careful experimenting ?
>
> Regards
> Trevor
>
> --------
> Trevor
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503927#503927
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0400door1_copy_108.jpg
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hi Trevor,
In the UK, Europas are not experimental. They operate under a Permit to
Fly that requires compliance with CAA/LAA directives.
Regards
Brian Davies
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On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 6:34 PM trevord <trevord@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am completing 272 which was started by Tony Krzyzewski here in New
> Zealand. One of his early modifications means that this aircraft has THREE
> bolts securing each door - there is one in the middle - Also the hydraulic
> lifter was repositioned from original (I now think this is standard) and he
> spent a lot of time making the doors fit well, so the doors close properly
> each time, every time and do not bulge out that I understand was a problem
> from the native design.
>
> I am three years into completing this aircraft with a year to go and it
> has not been out in the sunshine yet, so I am not sure if the door will
> bulge and make it fit differently when hot. But considering the aircraft is
> experimental, should not each builder decide if a change should be made and
> how it should be done, with your UK LAA just suggesting a possible fix ?
>
> New Zealand tends to "follow suit" with CAA/FAA directives, but I am not
> sure about the LAA in this case.
>
> I was considering a mod for the future, where I could optionally take a
> door off and replace with a specially made half-door for sunny day flying
> (at lower speed) this would be quite nice I think and of course this would
> be an experimental door - is this not the whole point of experimental
> aircraft, Innovation through careful experimenting ?
>
> Regards
> Trevor
>
> --------
> Trevor
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503927#503927
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0400door1_copy_108.jpg
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Correction, checked again, and indeed my center pin does pull the door in enough
to cause the rear pin to interfere against the stock door rebate in the worst
case. So i guess the center pin does indeed have the same effect as the new
uglymod. :-)
Cheers,
Pete
> On Nov 5, 2021, at 1:25 PM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
> Fwiw. My bird has those third bolts, but alas, the rear bolts still can miss
the sill.
> But my precheck and idiot light is good enough for me. (did i say that put loud?
Lol)
> Knock on wood.
> Pete
> C-gnpz
>
>> On Nov 5, 2021, at 12:55 PM, trevord <trevord@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Hello all,
>>
>> I am completing 272 which was started by Tony Krzyzewski here in New Zealand.
One of his early modifications means that this aircraft has THREE bolts securing
each door - there is one in the middle - Also the hydraulic lifter was repositioned
from original (I now think this is standard) and he spent a lot of
time making the doors fit well, so the doors close properly each time, every time
and do not bulge out that I understand was a problem from the native design.
>>
>> I am three years into completing this aircraft with a year to go and it has
not been out in the sunshine yet, so I am not sure if the door will bulge and
make it fit differently when hot. But considering the aircraft is experimental,
should not each builder decide if a change should be made and how it should
be done, with your UK LAA just suggesting a possible fix ?
>>
>> New Zealand tends to "follow suit" with CAA/FAA directives, but I am not sure
about the LAA in this case.
>>
>> I was considering a mod for the future, where I could optionally take a door
off and replace with a specially made half-door for sunny day flying (at lower
speed) this would be quite nice I think and of course this would be an experimental
door - is this not the whole point of experimental aircraft, Innovation
through careful experimenting ?
>>
>> Regards
>> Trevor
>>
>> --------
>> Trevor
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503927#503927
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Attachments:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com//files/0400door1_copy_108.jpg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Well at least it has a name - Uglymod.
Trevor and others are right - whatever makes things safer is always right. I ordered
my 'kits' (x2) within minutes of them appearing on the LAA Shop site.
I thought I'd just have a bitch about it!
The LAA have been doing their stuff, I would imagine there is influence creeping
in from Mike and Joe who are breathing some youthful air into LAA Engineering.
However (bitch mk2 coming), there is a concern that by creating products the LAA
is opening itself up in terms of liability - gamekeeper and poacher scenario?
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503934#503934
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Loli was gonna actually start the same name with an F.but thought id be more civil
;-)
> On Nov 5, 2021, at 4:26 PM, John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
> Well at least it has a name - Uglymod.
>
> Trevor and others are right - whatever makes things safer is always right. I
ordered my 'kits' (x2) within minutes of them appearing on the LAA Shop site.
I thought I'd just have a bitch about it!
>
> The LAA have been doing their stuff, I would imagine there is influence creeping
in from Mike and Joe who are breathing some youthful air into LAA Engineering.
>
> However (bitch mk2 coming), there is a concern that by creating products the
LAA is opening itself up in terms of liability - gamekeeper and poacher scenario?
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503934#503934
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Thanks John,
In NZ, we can keep the aircraft experimental, provided we are "experimenting" and
making changes. From memory, this requires some more paperwork and restrictions.
What normally happens, is after a period, it is moved into the Amateur Built
category and the builder can do maintenance provided they to a CAA course
of a few days, that focuses on paperwork - I have not decided exactly how I am
going to proceed because I may choses later to experiment with auxiliary electric
wing pods - ha.
We do however have some creeping legislation here, the ADSB has to be signed off
by an Avionics LAME even on a homebuilt because it is part of a countrywide
certified system, so this has added some complication.
Back to the shoot bolt - good to hear from peterz that his third bolt works also.
I cannot see how this door shape fault is any more dangerous than leaving the
wing pins out which is a checklist item of course. I am a checklist person
and rigorously pick up my checklist and read through, talking to myself even now
after flying 20 odd years flying, so I a not going to take off unless I have
completed the checklist, the checklist is PART of the takeoff in my mind PERIOD.
I am sure once I get the Europa flying, I will be probably more pedantic - I have
already started writing the checklist that is specific to my aircraft, for
example, checking that the panel heat extractor fan is running by placing my hand
over the vent to feel the air and checking I can see the fuel level using
the reversing camera that points to the sight gauge positioned BEHIND the pilot
and so on ..
Thank you for the feedback guys
Regards
Trevor
--------
Trevor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503936#503936
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hello Trevor,
You said ......
> and he spent a lot of time making the doors fit well, so the doors close properly
each time, every time and do not bulge out
Do you have the door seals installed?
I found that my doors fitted perfectly and were a delight to open and close UNTIL
I installed the door seals when it became a different ball game.
Regards
Kingsley in Oz
Message 15
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hello Kingsley in Oz,
Yes the door seals are fitted.
Tony was/is a bit of a perfectionist, many aspects of the aircraft were built,
re-built and re-built again as Tony improved on what he had already done over
and over - the fabulous build log attests to this. I think this is why it took
him so long to the extent that, he reached an age where natural ageing affects
one's medical ability to fly and he decided not to fight it, stopped flying
and stopped building.
I purchased the aircraft after it had been in a long period of dry storage. Since
then, I have had to do a lot of work upgrading as new information and new instruments
became available that should be utilised, plus all the mandatory upgrades
and replacement of metal parts that just seem to corrode even in a dry
garage.
I think that Tony's repositioning of the gas strut has actually made it into the
standard build these days - the effect is NOT to push the door out when closed.
Together with the THIRD locking pin, makes it close nicely with a little pull.
There is also a HANDLE in exactly the right place (to the rear) so that if
the door is closed routinely, the rear pin cannot close outside of the aircraft.
One of the attractions of buying this aircraft was Tony's initial work - it is
either excellent or he has paid for excellent work to be done (e.g. he got it
professionally repainted after multiple attempts to paint it himself with a sub-standard
product). The work I am doing is taking so long because I am also working
to a high standard. If if does not look right, then it is not happening.
If your door does not close properly, I am sure the mod is necessary and a good
idea.
When my aircraft is rolled out on a sunny day for the first engine start at some
point and the door gets heated-up, it is possible that I may face the same problem.
If that happens, I will fix it properly, I have no wish for a self-inflicted
incident either.
Following this discussion, I am going to see if I can MAKE the door close wrongly
by deliberate mishandling and get back to you if there is new news - I do not
want a future door incident to spoil my day either !
Regards
Trevor
--------
Trevor
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503938#503938
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
a side note: the door strut repositioning does still bow the door out over
time - but in the middle of the arc now instead of the corner.
I have a solution in mind to eliminate any gas strut pressure on the door
when fully closed: a small overcenter cam mounted in the channel that
receives the end of the gas strut as the door is closed. This will keep all
the compressed strut pressures in the fuse channel...... assuming the
channel's geometry can take the pressures and not also distort over time -
I guess I'll find out ;-)
Cheers,
PeteZ
On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 6:44 PM trevord <trevord@orcon.net.nz> wrote:
>
> Hello Kingsley in Oz,
>
> Yes the door seals are fitted.
>
> Tony was/is a bit of a perfectionist, many aspects of the aircraft were
> built, re-built and re-built again as Tony improved on what he had already
> done over and over - the fabulous build log attests to this. I think this
> is why it took him so long to the extent that, he reached an age where
> natural ageing affects one's medical ability to fly and he decided not to
> fight it, stopped flying and stopped building.
>
> I purchased the aircraft after it had been in a long period of dry
> storage. Since then, I have had to do a lot of work upgrading as new
> information and new instruments became available that should be utilised,
> plus all the mandatory upgrades and replacement of metal parts that just
> seem to corrode even in a dry garage.
>
> I think that Tony's repositioning of the gas strut has actually made it
> into the standard build these days - the effect is NOT to push the door out
> when closed. Together with the THIRD locking pin, makes it close nicely
> with a little pull. There is also a HANDLE in exactly the right place (to
> the rear) so that if the door is closed routinely, the rear pin cannot
> close outside of the aircraft.
>
> One of the attractions of buying this aircraft was Tony's initial work -
> it is either excellent or he has paid for excellent work to be done (e.g.
> he got it professionally repainted after multiple attempts to paint it
> himself with a sub-standard product). The work I am doing is taking so long
> because I am also working to a high standard. If if does not look right,
> then it is not happening. If your door does not close properly, I am sure
> the mod is necessary and a good idea.
>
> When my aircraft is rolled out on a sunny day for the first engine start
> at some point and the door gets heated-up, it is possible that I may face
> the same problem. If that happens, I will fix it properly, I have no wish
> for a self-inflicted incident either.
>
> Following this discussion, I am going to see if I can MAKE the door close
> wrongly by deliberate mishandling and get back to you if there is new news
> - I do not want a future door incident to spoil my day either !
>
> Regards
> Trevor
>
> --------
> Trevor
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=503938#503938
>
>
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