Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:18 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (John Wighton)
2. 04:01 AM - New Europa Club WhatsApp group (Roland)
3. 08:49 AM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (D McFadyean)
4. 09:12 AM - Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (John Wighton)
5. 11:25 AM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (fklein@orcasonline.com)
6. 02:56 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Paul Mansfield)
7. 05:15 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Tim Ward)
8. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Tim Ward)
9. 08:47 PM - Re: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop (Westnet Mail)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
The AAIB report is up to their usual high standard. However, the trend l can see
being analysed is insufficient (or ineffective) aircraft type training and
nothing to do with the nominal design of the Europa. Does it mention non-compliance
to the design specification?
I don't see an analysis of the recovered door(s) and measurement of the shoot bolt
length against the design requirement.
10 to 12mm of protruding pin is needed. Is this an inspection item on a Europa
permit inspection or renewal? If not, why not?
I have looked at about a dozen Europa since the UglyMod appeared on the scene.
All have different shoot bolt lengths and tapers. Some are filed to a distinct
point whereas others have a minimal taper and have a generous radius at the
end.
As the operation of the door is linked to the dimensions and shape of the shoot
bolts l would have thought this an obvious place to ensure consistency. Minimum
design spec - shoot bolt extended length and shape being the inspection criterion.
The LAA Mod may avoid some clumsy mishandling of the doors, but it does not necessarily
fix the root cause.
Go and measure your shoot bolts.
Now measure the size and shape of the holes in the door surround. These are nominally
a clearance fit to the shoot bolt diameter. Is the hole clean, would
it benefit from a bush (tube) to ensure a good fit with the (proper length) shoot
bolt?
Some food for though. Until the next door off event.
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505687#505687
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| Subject: | New Europa Club WhatsApp group |
Hello Europa folks,
this is to inform you all about the Europa Club providing a new WhatsApp chatgroup
for all about Europa as an additional communication tool. If you are interested,
you'll find all information about it on the Club Website:
https://www.theeuropaclub.org/news/europa-club-whatsapp-group
The WhatsApp group is rather for all "short notice stuff" and of course not meant
to replace this great Forum here, which e. g. provides an excellent and valuable
search funktion!
That said, I hope to meet you also "over there" :-)
Regards
Roland
(Europa Club Representative for Austria, Seitzerland and Germany)
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505688#505688
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
stop
I feel another LAA mod coming on!
do not archive.
> On 16 January 2022 at 11:18 John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
>
>
> The AAIB report is up to their usual high standard. However, the trend l can
see being analysed is insufficient (or ineffective) aircraft type training and
nothing to do with the nominal design of the Europa. Does it mention non-compliance
to the design specification?
>
> I don't see an analysis of the recovered door(s) and measurement of the shoot
bolt length against the design requirement.
>
> 10 to 12mm of protruding pin is needed. Is this an inspection item on a Europa
permit inspection or renewal? If not, why not?
>
> I have looked at about a dozen Europa since the UglyMod appeared on the scene.
All have different shoot bolt lengths and tapers. Some are filed to a distinct
point whereas others have a minimal taper and have a generous radius at the
end.
>
> As the operation of the door is linked to the dimensions and shape of the shoot
bolts l would have thought this an obvious place to ensure consistency. Minimum
design spec - shoot bolt extended length and shape being the inspection
criterion.
>
> The LAA Mod may avoid some clumsy mishandling of the doors, but it does not necessarily
fix the root cause.
>
> Go and measure your shoot bolts.
>
> Now measure the size and shape of the holes in the door surround. These are
nominally a clearance fit to the shoot bolt diameter. Is the hole clean, would
it benefit from a bush (tube) to ensure a good fit with the (proper length)
shoot bolt?
>
> Some food for though. Until the next door off event.
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505687#505687
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Following on from my last post I reacquainted myself with the build manual sections
34 and 35.
The part DL07 is the guide mounted in the door, this gives the shoot bolt an axis
to follow - hence it needs to be aligned accurately such that DL06 (shoot bolt)
and the operating rod DL11(F and R) do not bind.
Doing the above should ensure the shoot bolts protrude equally and follow a longitudinal
axis.
Drilling and opening up the door-side holes is covered in manual 35. It states:
"In this step you will be cutting the holes in the door rebates to accept the shoot
bolts, but first reinforce the area where the holes will be by applying 4
plies of bid 30 mm x 30 mm at the back of the door rebates (unmoulded side).
Once this layup has fully cured apply a small dab of wet ink, or paint to the very
end of the shoot-bolts. With the door fully pushed home, move the door handle
towards the closed position until the end of the bolt strikes and, hopefully,
leaves a witness mark on the door reveal.
This is your starting point; drill a 1/4" hole and then with a round file carefully
open up the hole just enough to allow a shoot bolt guide to fit in the door
recess, so that when the shoot-bolts are fully extended, the doors are fully
secured and flush with the outside of the fuselage. Use dabs of paint on
the shoot-bolt each time you want to enlarge the hole so that you can see which
areas need filing. Shorten the shoot bolt guides so that they protrude only 10
- 12 mm (3/8" - ") through the door frame and, ensuring that there is a gap
of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the door and the frame, bond them in with
Araldite 420 and flox."
I would suggest that there should be another bush (like DL07) that goes into the
doorframe moulding. This could be CNC machined (or 3D printed in a durable
material). The initial opening would 'collect' the DL06 shoot-bolt taper and
guide it into the new bushing.
An enlarged flange on this new bushing could be made to act in a similar way to
the UglyMod moulding - i.e. preventing the shoot-bolt from moving rearwards if
misaligned.
In summary
1. There seems to be a wide tolerance on shoot-bolt length.
2. Physical examination of Europa shoot-bolts suggests that the end taper and radius
of the bolt is highly variable.
3. The locking mech in the door has a nice bushing/guide.
4. The shoot-bolt on the doorframe locates into a plain hole that has no dimensional
tolerances (ref build manual 35). The dimension given has no datum and
may be open to misinterpretation.
5. A doorframe mounted bushing - correctly designed, should enable more accurate
engagement of the shoot-bolt.
6. Are the shoot-bolts installed in aircraft sufficiently long?
Discuss.......
--------
John Wighton
Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505690#505690
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
stop
Johnthank you for your thoughtful analysis, summary, and
invitation for discussion.
> On Jan 16, 2022, at 9:12 AM, John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
> In summary
> 1. There seems to be a wide tolerance on shoot-bolt length.
> 2. Physical examination of Europa shoot-bolts suggests that the end
taper and radius of the bolt is highly variable.
> 3. The locking mech in the door has a nice bushing/guide.
> 4. The shoot-bolt on the doorframe locates into a plain hole that has
no dimensional tolerances (ref build manual 35). The dimension given
has no datum and may be open to misinterpretation.
> 5. A doorframe mounted bushing - correctly designed, should enable
more accurate engagement of the shoot-bolt.
> 6. Are the shoot-bolts installed in aircraft sufficiently long?
>
> Discuss.
I had no idea "that the end taper and radius of the bolt is highly
variable=9Dmy having assumed that those shoot bolt ends,
being a factory-supplied component, were identical and consistent.
I found the aluminum sleeves provided for the doorframes to be totally
adequate; however, after reading reports of =9Cgalling=9D of
the aluminum sleeves which are bonded to the airframe, I substituted
teflon sleeves (identical in size and shape to the aluminum sleeves
supplied with the kit) which I was able to source at McMaster-Carr.
Perhaps I am mistaken, but (up until now) I believed that the loss of
doors in flight was due to the rear shoot bolt NOT being inserted in the
rear sleeve of the airframeratherthat the rear shoot
bolt, as the latching mechanism moves to the closed position, extends
OUTSIDE of the airframe, prevents proper sealing of the door, and
results in aerodynamic forces which cause the door to depart.
If that is the case, any additional length of the rear shoot bolt
(beyond that called for in the build manual) would have no effect.
In my particular aircraft, due to the resistance of the compressible
door seal, I find that it is essential to be able to pull in the door at
the same time that I am closing the latching mechanism.
Fred
A194
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
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Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt stop |
Hi John,
Just measured shoot bolt length. Average total exposed length 22mm.
Average total exposed non-tapered length 12mm.
I installed a stainless steel plate to door frame to guard against fibre gla
ss door frame damage. See photo. They cover the extra DL07 installed in the d
oor frame. Distance between DL07 (door and door frame when closed 1-2mm). Do
n=99t believe there is a remote chance of the shoot bolts being forced
out, without using the door handle.
Cheers,
Tim
Sent from my iPhone
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
CHRISTCHURCH 8052
Hom 03315166
> On 17/01/2022, at 06:20, John Wighton <john@wighton.net> wrote:
>
et>
>
> Following on from my last post I reacquainted myself with the build manual
sections 34 and 35.
>
> The part DL07 is the guide mounted in the door, this gives the shoot bolt a
n axis to follow - hence it needs to be aligned accurately such that DL06 (s
hoot bolt) and the operating rod DL11(F and R) do not bind.
>
> Doing the above should ensure the shoot bolts protrude equally and follow a
longitudinal axis.
>
> Drilling and opening up the door-side holes is covered in manual 35. It s
tates:
>
> "In this step you will be cutting the holes in the door rebates to accept t
he shoot bolts, but first reinforce the area where the holes will be by appl
ying 4 plies of =98bid=99 30 mm x 30 mm at the back of the door r
ebates (unmoulded side).
> Once this layup has fully cured apply a small dab of wet ink, or paint to t
he very end of the shoot-bolts. With the door fully pushed home, move the do
or handle towards the closed position until the end of the bolt strikes and,
hopefully, leaves a witness mark on the door reveal.
>
> This is your starting point; drill a 1/4" hole and then with a round file c
arefully open up the hole just enough to allow a shoot bolt guide to fit in t
he door recess, so that when the shoot-bolts are fully extended, the doors a
re fully secured and flush with the outside of the fuselage. Use dabs of pai
nt on
> the shoot-bolt each time you want to enlarge the hole so that you can see w
hich areas need filing. Shorten the shoot bolt guides so that they protrude o
nly 10 - 12 mm (3/8" - =C2=BD") through the door frame and, ensuring that th
ere is a gap of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the door and the frame, b
ond them in with Araldite 420 and flox."
>
> I would suggest that there should be another bush (like DL07) that goes in
to the doorframe moulding. This could be CNC machined (or 3D printed in a d
urable material). The initial opening would 'collect' the DL06 shoot-bolt t
aper and guide it into the new bushing.
>
> An enlarged flange on this new bushing could be made to act in a similar w
ay to the UglyMod moulding - i.e. preventing the shoot-bolt from moving rear
wards if misaligned.
>
> In summary
> 1. There seems to be a wide tolerance on shoot-bolt length.
> 2. Physical examination of Europa shoot-bolts suggests that the end taper a
nd radius of the bolt is highly variable.
> 3. The locking mech in the door has a nice bushing/guide.
> 4. The shoot-bolt on the doorframe locates into a plain hole that has no d
imensional tolerances (ref build manual 35). The dimension given has no dat
um and may be open to misinterpretation.
> 5. A doorframe mounted bushing - correctly designed, should enable more ac
curate engagement of the shoot-bolt.
> 6. Are the shoot-bolts installed in aircraft sufficiently long?
>
> Discuss.......
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505690#505690
>
>
>
>
>
>
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
==========================
=========
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
stop
I had to request 4 extra DL07 from Europa factory. I think they are now incl
uded in the kit.
Sent from my iPhone
Tim Ward
12 Waiwetu Street
Fendalton
CHRISTCHURCH 8052
Hom 03315166
> On 17/01/2022, at 12:03, Paul Mansfield <europaul383@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> "I would suggest that there should be another bush (like DL07) that goes i
nto the doorframe moulding."
>
> There is another bush (also called DL07) that goes in the door frame (they
were supplied in the kit & I certainly fitted them):
>
> "Shorten the shoot bolt guides <> through the door frame and, ...ensuring t
hat there is a gap of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the door and the f
rame, bond them in ..."
>
> ... my emphasis.
>
> HTH,
>
> Paul
>
> G-PLPM
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: John Wighton <john@wighton.net>
> Date: 16/01/2022 17:15 (GMT+00:00)
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt s
top
>
>
> Following on from my last post I reacquainted myself with the build manual
sections 34 and 35.
>
> The part DL07 is the guide mounted in the door, this gives the shoot bolt a
n axis to follow - hence it needs to be aligned accurately such that DL06 (s
hoot bolt) and the operating rod DL11(F and R) do not bind.
>
> Doing the above should ensure the shoot bolts protrude equally and follow a
longitudinal axis.
>
> Drilling and opening up the door-side holes is covered in manual 35. It s
tates:
>
> "In this step you will be cutting the holes in the door rebates to accept t
he shoot bolts, but first reinforce the area where the holes will be by appl
ying 4 plies of =C3=A2=82=AC=CB=9Cbid=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2 30 mm x 30 m
m at the back of the door rebates (unmoulded side).
> Once this layup has fully cured apply a small dab of wet ink, or paint to t
he very end of the shoot-bolts. With the door fully pushed home, move the do
or handle towards the closed position until the end of the bolt strikes and,
hopefully, leaves a witness mark on the door reveal.
>
> This is your starting point; drill a 1/4" hole and then with a round file c
arefully open up the hole just enough to allow a shoot bolt guide to fit in t
he door recess, so that when the shoot-bolts are fully extended, the doors a
re fully secured and flush with the outside of the fuselage. Use dabs of pai
nt on
> the shoot-bolt each time you want to enlarge the hole so that you can see w
hich areas need filing. Shorten the shoot bolt guides so that they protrude o
nly 10 - 12 mm (3/8" - =C3=82=C2=BD") through the door frame and, ensuring t
hat there is a gap of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the door and the f
rame, bond them in with Araldite 420 and flox."
>
> I would suggest that there should be another bush (like DL07) that goes in
to the doorframe moulding. This could be CNC machined (or 3D printed in a d
urable material). The initial opening would 'collect' the DL06 shoot-bolt t
aper and guide it into the new bushing.
>
> An enlarged flange on this new bushing could be made to act in a similar w
ay to the UglyMod moulding - i.e. preventing the shoot-bolt from moving rear
wards if misaligned.
>
> In summary
> 1. There seems to be a wide tolerance on shoot-bolt length.
> 2. Physical examination of Europa shoot-bolts suggests that the end taper a
nd radius of the bolt is highly variable.
> 3. The locking mech in the door has a nice bushing/guide.
> 4. The shoot-bolt on the doorframe locates into a plain hole that has no d
imensional tolerances (ref build manual 35). The dimension given has no dat
um and may be open to misinterpretation.
> 5. A doorframe mounted bushing - correctly designed, should enable more ac
curate engagement of the shoot-bolt.
> 6. Are the shoot-bolts installed in aircraft sufficiently long?
>
> Discuss.......
>
> --------
> John Wighton
> Europa XS trigear G-IPOD
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> https://emea01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums
.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D505690%23505690&data=04%7C01%7C%7
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>
>
>
>
>
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Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Mandatory U.K. LAA permit directive. Shoot-Bolt |
stop
>>...ensuring that there is a gap of only 1 - 2 mm between the guides in the
door and the frame, bond them in ..."
I have seen several Europas with the aluminium guides DL07 installed in the d
oor frames however, there were no such guides included in my kit and no ment
ion whatsoever in my build manual. It appears the idea was introduced belat
edly and I suspect with the introduction of the XS.
Since I have never had any problems with the shoot bolts, I have elected to l
et sleeping dogs lie.
Best regards
Kingsley in Oz
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