Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:13 AM - Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Roland)
2. 03:42 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Pete Zut)
3. 03:53 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Westnet Mail)
4. 09:47 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 1/31 - 2/7 (Erich Trombley)
5. 09:58 AM - Re: Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (D McFadyean)
6. 10:47 AM - Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (dmac7)
7. 12:54 PM - Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Peter pender)
8. 03:04 PM - Re: Re: Fw: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid (Bud Yerly)
9. 11:02 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
10. 11:22 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Hi Kingsley,
figure 3 in the report shows on the left picture the elevator in ANU-position,
which is correct, since the aircraft finally stalled in a steep climb (the Pilot
obviously overrode the trim, which was in the full AND position as shown on
the right picture.
So all is correct in the report as I can see it.
Regards
Roland
D-ERIG
XS TG 914
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505875#505875
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Except the indicator was correct for takeoff. Baffles me that a
multihundred hour on type pilot would mismanage the stick due to excessive
trim....especially in that direction.
PeteZ
On Tue., Feb. 1, 2022, 6:22 a.m. Roland, <schmidtroland@web.de> wrote:
>
> Hi Kingsley,
>
> figure 3 in the report shows on the left picture the elevator in
> ANU-position, which is correct, since the aircraft finally stalled in a
> steep climb (the Pilot obviously overrode the trim, which was in the full
> AND position as shown on the right picture.
>
> So all is correct in the report as I can see it.
>
> Regards
> Roland
>
> D-ERIG
> XS TG 914
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505875#505875
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Roland,
I hastily retract my previous comment.
Referencing Fig 3, my eyes are not what they used to be and I didnt see the colon
(:) after the word Left meaning I read it as Left tailplane instead of a reference
to the Left picture.
My apologies.
Kingsley
Sent from my iPhone
> On 1 Feb 2022, at 9:22 pm, Roland <schmidtroland@web.de> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Kingsley,
>
> figure 3 in the report shows on the left picture the elevator in ANU-position,
which is correct, since the aircraft finally stalled in a steep climb (the Pilot
obviously overrode the trim, which was in the full AND position as shown
on the right picture.
>
> So all is correct in the report as I can see it.
>
> Regards
> Roland
>
> D-ERIG
> XS TG 914
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505875#505875
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | RE: What did you do with your Europa this week 1/31 - 2/7 |
Work continuesalbeit at a snails space.
After triple checking my wiring harness and searching the various forums for a
solution to the problem I was having with the Garmin G5 not recognizing the ARINC
429 module I contacted Garmin support, and to my surprise received a call
back. Apparently a known software bug which the most recent version resolved.
You would think with a new unit it would have had the latest software installed.
Mission creep has set in and other project have been added to the list which are
extending the completion date of my panel upgrade.
One, I am sure will be worthwhile in the end, is adding speed compensating trim
with relay deck as well as auto trim for the AP via the Dynon autopilot interface.
I originally installed the MAC speed controller which has worked reasonable
well. I have it turned down to the lowest setting which still results in
the pitch trim being too sensitive at cruise and way too slow at pattern speeds.
Planning for the eventual 406 ELT installation, I am running power and a serial
cable from the new Garmin GPS 175 to provide GPS data to the ELT. Of course,
I thought of this after completing the wiring harness for the GPS175. Oh well,
at least I still had it on the bench.
I am also adding a dedicated Ident button for the Dynon transponder that I am relocating
to the baggage bay.
Lastly, I am replacing 20 plus year old RG58 coax with RG400 for the com radio
and transponder antennas.
Oh, the fun never ends.
Erich
N28ET
Classic Mono 914
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Pete,
"....Except the indicator was correct for takeoff."
Was it? I understood the report assumed it was not (based on what was found in
the wreckage). I remain curious to know how the report could be certain that AND
trim was set during takeoff, not that there was much time for the trim motor
to be able to make much of a change.
Duncan McF.
> On 01 February 2022 at 11:42 Pete Zut <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
> Except the indicator was correct for takeoff. Baffles me that a multihundred
hour on type pilot would mismanage the stick due to excessive trim....especially
in that direction.
>
> PeteZ
>
> On Tue., Feb. 1, 2022, 6:22 a.m. Roland, <schmidtroland@web.de mailto:schmidtroland@web.de > wrote:
>
> >
> > Hi Kingsley,
> >
> > figure 3 in the report shows on the left picture the elevator in ANU-position,
which is correct, since the aircraft finally stalled in a steep climb
(the Pilot obviously overrode the trim, which was in the full AND position
as shown on the right picture.
> >
> > So all is correct in the report as I can see it.
> >
> > Regards
> > Roland
> >
> > D-ERIG
> > XS TG 914
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505875#505875
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ==========
> > pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
> > ==========
> > FORUMS -
> > eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > WIKI -
> > errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
> > ==========
> > b Site -
> > -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
> > ="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribution
> > ==========
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > >
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Hello Pete, What I get from the report is - the pilot had a habit of steep climbs
after take-off and the plane had 6.5 liters of fuel in the main tank. C of
G was in the middle 60.25" The plane was near sea level temps of +1C. Winds
15 to 23 kt. on the nose. It would have been a brisk performer on this day but
with so little fuel would it have kept running at a steep angle of climb? I
always believed in the long run our bad habits will bite us. I think overly
steep climbs are a bad habit unless required for obstacle clearance. The trim
is the only thing wrong they could find but then he always took off with three
lines of nose down.
I will be careful on climb out myself, and make sure the airplane is configured
for takeoff.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505880#505880
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
dmac7, I think this might be possible, but you might think they would have checked
where the fuel pickup was located in the tank. What about a big slug of water
seeing the tank was so empty, a lot of moist air in there to condensate
since last flight all dependant on fuel drain setup and procedure.
I'm sure others do this as well but on walk around I check tail plane and trim
are set for takeoff and then when in aircraft check the trim indicator agrees.
Cheers Peter
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505882#505882
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| Subject: | Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligheid |
Guys,
This is a condensed report of the Europa Accident from 2018. There will be
corrections, I=92m sure. I=92m not going to be critical, but I do have a
number of questions and observations:
As far as abbreviations: Read the Abbreviations, =93AND=94 is Aircraft Nos
e Down etc.
Any time an Experimental Amateur Built Aircraft (EAB) is damaged/destroyed
it reflects on all of us in the community. Loss of a pilot should make all
of us pause and consider our procedures and operational techniques and tra
ining to prevent reoccurance.
Notes from my time in the conventional and mono and this particular investi
gation:
1. Trim should always be set and visually observed prior to takeoff or e
ven climbing in. My technique is set the stab equal to the rebate and note
the tab at roughly even with the stab (trim tab or near zero). (My Annex
E setting.) Trusting an indicator is not sufficient. I check the pre-takeof
f trim visually. This will most likely prevent takeoff with a trim at full
deflection and make trim failure fairly comfortable to land with.
2. The old analogue Ray Allen Trim indicator is not terribly accurate bu
t is still an adequate trend instrument, good normally in my aircraft to be
very close. It is not uncommon in all the aircraft I have built that both
the digital and analogue indicators are set for takeoff somewhere in a lev
el to nose down position of one to two bars from the middle position with t
he visual trim position near 1 as above. That=92s life with indicators.
3. Takeoff or landing with full trim up or down:
* Pitch forces at full nose down on takeoff are not really all that
terrible. 10 pounds at takeoff speed to 75 knot climb is my estimate. Mos
t people can hold that for about 5 minutes with the use of one hand only ke
eping the nose steady for one circuit to landing.
* Many civil pilots are not used to setting a pitch attitude then tr
imming to zero stick force in flight, and in my experience, I see wild pitc
h excursions of 0 to + 15 degrees nose high on takeoff due to the pilot not
aggressively putting the nose where it needs to be for takeoff and holding
it there no matter what (initial overcontrolling problem). My basic obse
rvation is the pilot=92s =93death grip=94 on the stick has them flying with
abrupt arm input is a contributing factor to this lack of feel and pitch d
eviation of the inexperience Europa pilot. Experienced Europa pilots (100
hours in type) generally do not have this issue. As a technique in the Eur
opa, I personally put the nose slightly above on the horizon for a 75-knot
climb and just below the horizon for a 90-knot climb. The poor pilot pitch
technique is exacerbated by pilot trainer=92s failure to insist on pitch a
nd power setting memorization for phases of flight. (Of course, it is disa
ppointing to catch oneself with the cruise pitch and power settings off fro
m my normal level off picture because the 10-degree takeoff flap setting wa
s not retracted after takeoff. Been there, done that!) While on that subj
ect, I have seen instructors that will not allow a student to perform a ful
l flap landing to touch and go because they have been scared that the stude
nt allows the plane to hop into the air with full power, near full up trim
and full flaps in the Cessna 150. I nearly smacked the instructor with me
when after a very nice soft field approach and landing I immediately powere
d up, retracting the flaps to 20, trimming constantly, while holding the no
se wheel slightly off the runway. The instructor grabbed the controls clea
rly in fear of a pitch up and after a rather short (colorful) comment from
me he was coaxed off the controls. After I explained my technique and why
it is so important to hold whatever pressure is necessary to keep the pitch
proper for the configuration and power setting was an essential skill for
a pilot to anticipate and learn. I then had him explore my technique and w
e had a good time trading landings and techniques.
* The 914/Constant Speed (CS) prop equipped Europa of any type will
climb at a deck angle of 15-20 degrees at full power and a steady best angl
e of climb speed setting. This nose angle is quite high (nothing but sky,
so pitch setting is difficult). Although the stall speed with 10 degrees o
f takeoff flap set appears to be 45 KIAS in the POH, in actuality, at full
power with the 914/CS, the stall speed is much less. Even with a fixed pit
ch 912S a full power clean power on stall is incredibly nose high and the p
lane properly controlled, will keep a nose up (hang on the prop) pitch atti
tude for an uncomfortably long time with little indication of burble due to
the large amount of prop wash.
* The post crash reference flight done with full nose down trim was
referenced in the report for a climb 5 knots above the stall. That applies
to this accident but is not a prudent climb attitude for the Europa. The
pitch attitude is very high (deck angle) and difficult to set without pract
ice and references even with proper trim at this low of a speed due to lack
of outside references. Frankly at full power and 65 KIAS any engine minor
hiccup will immediately bleed speed and a stall is going to result unless
an immediate pitch down to 10-15 degrees nose down is made to regain/mainta
in airspeed. That is a 30- degree pitch change which most pilots are not r
eady to do when surprised by an engine failure. Why anyone would not attem
pt to get to best rate or L/D Max on takeoff as quickly as possible is beyo
nd me unless there are obstacles on the runway boundary necessitating a bes
t angle of climb speed be held. Then one should plan to never go to that f
ield again, or if necessary to operate out of the short with high obstacle
field one should really keep your engine well tuned with good fuel and prac
tice often.
* Pitch attitude difficulties with full nose down trim is interestin
g. Again, I reiterate, a pilot should be able to hold a steady pitch attit
ude. Yes, the stick force is higher, but holding the pitch attitude steady
is one of those pilot things that is essential for proper control. In com
mercial emergency training, runaway trim at critical phases (takeoff / clim
b runaway trim) is practiced in the simulator often to the embarrassment of
the pilot(s) (although not done that often as the training tech is getting
paid to make sure the pilots pass their EP trainer). The trainer and pilo
ts then go over the why and how to correct this and if necessary, the exerc
ise is practiced again until the evaluator and pilot are satisfied. Intere
sting that I make nearly all my customers fly at least once full nose up an
d full nose down for the experience since runaway or inop trim is always a
possibility in any aircraft. Nice experiment and practice. I preach to ch
eck the trim visually as normally takeoffs are done with the tab neutral mo
stly. Later owner/operators make checklist changes if they need a bit of n
ose up or down to fit their takeoff style.
4. I find a 150 meter takeoff roll (even light weight) in gusty head win
d conditions on a grass strip a bit disconcerting. Even on a rough field,
keeping the nose steady is not terribly difficult in the Europa. From the
photo evidence once tail authority is achieved, I estimate the crash was mo
st likely by eyeball about 200 meters from where he may have added full pow
er for takeoff! His normal full takeoff roll should have been shorter due
to headwind to be sure, but if the crash point is say 200 meters from brake
release that indicates immediately after breaking ground the takeoff climb
went up to a stall. The plane was probably horsed off the runway in my op
inion. In the mishap pilots defense, the conventional or mono on a rough f
ield may be thrown into the air by a very rough field and the pilot must ma
intain a proper pitch attitude to allow a safe retouch or safe fly off in g
round effect recovery. The report mentioned runway conditions did not permi
t touch and go maneuvers. Why? Was it rough, too soft, too short or just
an operational airfield directive? At 660 meters long it is a bit short co
nsidering the ditch at the approach end. My calculations off the top of my
head is the takeoff should be hard surface 500 feet for a fully loaded 914
and in gusty hard surface conditions with a takeoff speed tail up of 50 KI
AS minimum, but for a soft field I add 20% and I decrease roll 10% for the
headwind component of 15 Knots and put the takeoff in a three point takeoff
at approximately 45 KIAS minimum so roughly I expect a 550 foot/167 meters
normal takeoff roll. That puts the aircraft airborne for only an addition
al 33 meters or so prior to the crash impact. At say 45 Kts that is 76 FPS
/ 23 mps tells me the airplane may have been airborne only 1.5 seconds to
2 seconds (momentum still in stall/roll going up. A 914 climbs at 20 FPS o
r 6 mps would be about 10-15 meters high. Witnesses say 15-20 meters high.
So that is in the ball park of off the top of the head calculations. I b
elieve the witnesses were reasonable in their estimate.
5. Back to full nose down trim. If the trim was full nose down, normally
one would not pull excessively far back initially on the climb. Why? Thi
s is a tail dragger, so full aft stick is normally held during the takeoff
roll to a minimum of 35 KIAS. Normally the stick is relaxed as the plane b
egins to initially rise and the takeoff pitch attitude maintained while the
aircraft accelerates. Even with full nose down trim, the tail would want
to rise for slightly easier forward stick. But not so much to be noticeabl
e at normal liftoff speed. Say the forward stick was higher, the pilot wou
ld simply add about 5 pounds more pressure to get airborne when at flying s
peed or simply hold his takeoff attitude. Also full nose down would not pr
omote an extreme nose high attitude initially after takeoff. So, I have qu
estions on the assumption the trim was full up or down at the start. Why?
In the photo it shows down at the top of the trim switch is pushed for DOW
N (not unlike in my aircraft). If he had a tendency for steep climb outs i
mmediately after takeoff, with normal takeoff or full up trim one would nee
d to add more down trim immediately after takeoff due to the speed increase
toward about 65 KIAS and frankly one would add more down trim to push over
to a climb in most Europa=92s. Could the pilot have simply added nose dow
n trim while bringing the nose up from habit. Or was nose up trim from the
last landing still set and on liftoff the nose flew up more aggressively t
han normal and he was slow to stop the nose up moment. Perhaps the pilot w
as trimming nose down and either due to being heads down looking for the tr
im switch the pitch control on takeoff began to become a problem and he add
ed full nose down prior to the stalled loss of control. It takes about 10
seconds to go from nose full up to nose down. That is a long time. I don
=92t think he had full nose up and held the trim for 10 seconds. My conclu
sion is I don=92t think it acceptable to assume that a full nose down trim
was a factor since the aircraft did an aggressive climb and crashed so shor
tly after takeoff as the stick would have been held firmly full aft or near
it until at or near liftoff (if the tail was raised at all prior to liftof
f the stick would momentarily move a bit more forward than normal) until th
e plane was rotated for takeoff. It is conceivable that the pilot with ful
l nose down failed to hold aft stick or he over rotated the nose down (tail
up) faster than anticipated and he may have over controlled, and he allowe
d his overcontrol to continue to pitch up if he was startled. No one will
know since the trim movement direction is not easily traced post accident.
6. Also, the investigators failed to carefully look at wheel track to de
termine if there was any directional control problem or unevenness in the r
unway, but in their defense, by the time you get to an airfield for an inve
stigation everybody has driven all over the evidence. If the tail was rais
ed it is not easily seen on a grass strip where that happened without a car
eful observer watching. Perhaps the co-owner of the aircraft could comment
on the pilots takeoff technique.
7. The pilot had a history of doing what I call an =93airshow departure
=94 or showing off holding it down and zoom climb to best angle. However,
on this day he had a short takeoff (possible lower speed than normal liftof
f), steep climb (possible best angle attempt) in gusty conditions (but not
that bad), which leads me to an early finding of poor pilot discipline/tech
nique. These pilot takeoff observations are not conducive to a reasonable
departure by a Light Aircraft Civil Pilot. One can only wonder. There is
a little hot dog in all of us.
8. Complete pilot 30/60/90 flight time was not in the report. Not repor
ted was his age and occupation. His last flight recorded in the Europa app
ears to have been Dec 2018 so it appears he had currency (290 hours total P
IC with pilot license in Feb 2017 and accident in Dec 2018 appears he flew
about 290/22 months put him at 13 hours per month. What had he been flying
in the meantime other than the Europa? What date did he have his Europa c
heckout or is he a builder/operator? If he was not the builder, who checke
d him out. Investigators probably have that but omitted it in this short r
eport. Just for insurance purposes a prudent owner/operator would log his
Europa checkout and log his flight time in each aircraft and all training f
lights practicing stalls, and emergency landing practice and type (No Flap,
Soft Field, Min roll, etc.) to show currency and proficiency for insurance
coverage documentation. This lack of logging, currency and his routine ta
keoff departure tendency is not prudent pilot action and a bit cavalier for
a routine flight in my opinion, but that is me.
9. The eyewitness (it would be nice to know the differences in the witne
sses statements) report of 15-20 meters altitude at the stall and left roll
departure from controlled flight is very disconcerting also. Assuming ful
l power, right rudder is obviously needed for proper yaw control, and if th
e stall was encountered on departure to get a left roll meant either insuff
icient right rudder, and or input of right stick to control P factor roll.
This is interesting to me. Since full back stick ANU (Aircraft Nose UP) w
as held until impact, the pilot most likely lost control in the stall and m
aintained a full aft stick as the plane departed controlled flight, rolled
and impacted. One would assume full aft stick is a pure reaction to an uni
ntended low altitude stall. Of course, there is insufficient data on contr
ol input history due to lack of black box aircraft recording instrumentatio
n common in light aircraft and is only an assumption.
10. Finally, it is obvious the plane had 870 hours, and began life as a m
ono. It was modified, (no discussion of the mod and post flight test) and
apparently resold after about 5-600 (ish) hours? I find it sloppy that no
where in the report is the post flyoff test flight data of PH-PGV on stall
and characteristics from the logs (build log or aircraft log). Was the ori
ginal builder interviewed? The testimony of the co-owner on the aircraft
=92s characteristics and his partners flight time and performance are missi
ng from this report. I find that unusual. Especially in a government cond
ensed report. Perhaps in the long report it will be or has been included an
d was not deemed worthy of comment in this summary report. I find the lack
of standard maintenance documentation on this aircraft a bit scant also.
Who did the Annual and was he authorized? Since the aircraft had flown man
y hours since it was built in 1999 there must have been others who had flow
n it, modified it and flight tested it, were they interviewed or did the fa
il to participate?
As a former accident investigator (granted, years ago now) I have far too m
any questions that are unanswered. Perhaps the long report will have more.
It is sad the investigation of experimental aircraft accidents do not get
a lot of detail and is mostly assumptions as resources are normally given
for commercial flight mishap investigations. So, is the bottom line =93stal
l spin and ignore, it is just an experimental=94 bothers me. Until the LAA
gets the long report I will stand by and let the investigators do their jo
b.
It grieves me a perfectly good airplane and a nice pilot are lost. I can
=92t see how we can prevent this from happening from the report. problem ex
cept
Bud Yerly
Custom Flight Creations
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> On Behalf Of Pete Zut
Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2022 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: Fwd: Updates over Onderzoeksraad voor Veiligh
eid
Except the indicator was correct for takeoff. Baffles me that a multihundre
d hour on type pilot would mismanage the stick due to excessive trim....esp
ecially in that direction.
PeteZ
On Tue., Feb. 1, 2022, 6:22 a.m. Roland, <schmidtroland@web.de<mailto:schmi
dtroland@web.de>> wrote:
hmidtroland@web.de>>
Hi Kingsley,
figure 3 in the report shows on the left picture the elevator in ANU-positi
on, which is correct, since the aircraft finally stalled in a steep climb (
the Pilot obviously overrode the trim, which was in the full AND position a
s shown on the right picture.
So all is correct in the report as I can see it.
Regards
Roland
D-ERIG
XS TG 914
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BI0%3D&reserved=0>
pa-List" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.matroni
cs.com/Navigator?Europa-List
FORUMS -
eferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://forums.matronics.com
WIKI -
errer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://wiki.matronics.com
b Site -
-Matt Dralle, List Admin.
="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">https://matronics.com/contribu
tion
Message 9
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) below. The
complete Europa-List FAQ including the Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
[ Note: This FAQ was designed to be displayed with a fixed width font such as
Courier. Proportional fonts will cause display formatting errors. ]
This FAQ can also be viewed in HTML online at the following address:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQ/Europa-List.htm
************************************************************
******* LIST POLICIES AND FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS *******
************************************************************
PLEASE READ. This document contains Europa-List policies and information
for new and old subscribers. Understanding the Europa-List policies will
minimize problems for the Administrator, and will help keep the Europa-List
running smoothly for all of us.
******************************************
*** Quick Start Guide to List Features ***
******************************************
There are many features available on the Matronics Email Lists and each
one is described in detailed below. However, using the List Navigator
you can quickly access the complete set of features available for this
List. The List Navigator can be found at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
****************************************
*** How to Subscribe and Unsubscribe ***
****************************************
Simply go to the Web Page shown below and enter your email address and
select the List(s) that you wish to subscribe or unsubscribed from. You
may also use the handy "Find" function to determine the exact syntax of
your email address as it is subscribed to the List. Please see the
complete instructions at the top of the Web Page for more information.
The Subscribe/Unsubscribe web page is:
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you will receive TWO conformation emails regarding your subsciption
process. The first verifies that your subscription/unsubsciption request
was received, and the second confirms that the process has been completed.
You should receive the first email within a few minutes of your request.
The second conformation will arrive in less than 24 hours. You cannot post
until you receive the second conformation email message.
*****************************
*** How to Post a Message ***
*****************************
Send an email message to:
europa-list@matronics.com
Your message will be redistributed to everyone currently subscribed
to the List.
*****************************************************
*** SPAM Fighter - You Must be Subscribed to Post ***
*****************************************************
When a new post is received by the system, the From: line of the message
is checked and compared against the current subscription list. If the
email address is found, the message is passed on to the List Processor.
If the email address isn't found in the current list of subscribers, it
is dumped. This serves to very effectively thwart 99% of the SPAM that
gets posted to the Lists.
Remember, however, that the syntax of your email address is very important
with regard to the configuration of your email application such as Outlook
or Eudora. For example, the following two email addresses may be
functionally equivalent, but only one would pass the Matronics Email SPAM
test depending on which was syntax was subscribed to the given List:
smith@machine.domain.com
smith@domain.com
Either email address syntax is alright, just be sure that you configure
your email application to match *exactly* the address you've subscibed to
the List.
**************************************
*** Enclosure Support on the Lists ***
**************************************
Limited posting of enclosures such as pictures, documents, and spreadsheets
is supported on the Lists. There are a number of restrictions, and these
are detailed below. Please abide by the rules put forth regarding the
content of enclosures.
These are some of the features and limits of enclosures on the Matronics
Lists:
1) Enclosures will only be posted to the Real Time version of the Lists.
2) Enclosures will NOT be included in the Daily Digest version of the Lists.
3) Enclosures WILL BE forwarded on to the BBS Forum Web site.
4) Enclosures will NOT be appended to the Archives.
5) Enclosures will NOT be available in the List Browse feature.
6) Only the following file types and extensions will be allowed:
bmp doc dwg dxf gif jpg pdf png txt xls
All other enclosures types will be rejected and email returned to
sender. The enclosure types listed above are relatively safe from
a virus standpoint and don't pose a particularly large security risk.
7) !! All incoming enclosures will be scanned for viruses prior to posting
to the List. This is done in real time and will not slow down
the process of posting the message !!
Here are some rules for posting enclosures. Failure to abide by these rules
could result in the removal of a subscriber's email address from the Lists.
1) Pay attention to what you are posting!! Make sure that the files
you are enclosing aren't HUGE (greater that 1MB). Remember that there
are still people checking they're email via dial up modem. If you post
30MB worth of pictures, you are placing an unnecessary burden on these
folks and the rest of us, for that matter.
2) SCALE YOUR PICTURES DOWN!!! I don't want to see huge 3000 x 2000
pictures getting posted that are 3 or 4MB each. This is just
unacceptable. Use a program such as Photoshop to scale the picture
down to something on the order of 800 x 600 and try to keep the
file size to less-than 200KB, preferably much less.
Microsoft has a really awesome utility available for free that allows
you to Right-Click on a picture in Explorer and automatically
scale it down and resave it. This is a great utility - get it, use it!
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/downloads/powertoys/xppowertoys.mspx
Look for the link "Image Resizer"
3) !! This would seem to go without saying, but I'll say it anyway. Do not
post anything that would be considered offensive by your grandmother.
And you know what I'm saying; I don't want to see anything even
questionable. !!
4) REMEMBER THIS: If you post a 1MB enclosure to a List with 1000 members
subscribed, your 1MB enclosure must be resent 1000 times amounting
to 1MB X 1000 = 1 Gigabyte of network traffic!! BE CAREFUL and
BE COURTEOUS!
Also see the section below on the Matronics Photo and File Share where
you can have your files and photos posted on the Matronics web server
for long time viewing and availability.
*******************
*** Digest Mode ***
*******************
Each day, starting at 12 midnight PST US, a new 'digest' will be started.
This digest will contain the same information that is currently appended
to the archive file. It has all of the headers except for the "From:"
and "Subject:" lines removed, and includes a message separator consisting
of a line of underscores.
Each day at 23:55 PST US, the day's messages as described above will be
combined and sent as a single message to everyone on the digest email list.
To subscribe to the digest list, use the same subscription web form
described above, and just select the Digest version of the List.
http://www.matronics.com/subscribe
Note that you *can* be subscribed to both the realtime and digest versions
of the List at the same time. This is perfectly acceptable.
Now some caveats:
* Messages sent to "europa-list-digest" will be forwarded to the standard
email list. In other words, you cannot post messages only to the
digest List.
* If you are subscribed to both the regular List and the digest List, you
will receive the realtime postings as well as the digest at the end of
the day.
* If you reply to the digest email, your message will be forwarded to the
normal list associated with the digest. Important Note: Please change
the subject line to reflect the topic of your response! Also, please
*do not include all or most of the digest in your reply*.
****************************
*** List Digest Browser ***
****************************
An archive of all the List Digests can be found online in either plain text
or HTML format. These archives contain the exact Digest that was posted to
the Digest email list on the given day. The Digest Archives can be found
at the following location:
http://www.matronics.com/digest
*****************************************
*** The "DO NOT ARCHIVE" Message Flag ***
*****************************************
At times, your message may concern something that is revelent only to a very
small number of persons or to a limited area, and you may not wish to archive
it. In such a case, simply put the following phrase anywhere in the
message:
do not archive
Your message will not be appended to the archive, but will be sent to List
email distribution as normal.
**********************************************
***** READ THIS - Automatic Unsubscribes *****
**********************************************
Note that if your email address begins to cause problems such as bounced
email, mailbox is filled, or any other errors, your address will be promptly
removed from the List. If you discover that you are no longer receiving
messages from the Europa-List, go to the following Web page, and look
for your email address and a possible reason for your removal.
The Matronics Email List uses utility called the "Email Weasel" that
automatically looks though the day's bounced email for addresses that
caused problems due to common things like "user is unknown", "mailbox
full", etc. If the Email Weasel removes your email address from the
Lists you will find record of it at the following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/unsubscribed
If the problem listed on the web site above has been resolved, please feel
free to resubscribe to the Lists of your choice.
*******************************
*** List Member Information ***
*******************************
If you have not done so already, please email me your phone numbers and
paper mail address in the following format:
smith@somehost.com
Joe Smith
123 Airport Lane
Tower, CA 91234-1234
098-765-1234 w
123-456-7890 h
Please forward this information to the following email address:
requests@matronics.com
I have a file of such things, that I typically use to contact you when
there are problems with your email address. The information will NOT
be used for any other commercial purpose.
****************************************
*** Realtime Web Email List Browsing ***
****************************************
Recent messages posted to the Europa-List are also made available on
the Web for realtime browsing. Seven days worth of back postings are
available with this feature. The messages can be sorted by Subject,
Author, Date, or Message Thread. The Realtime List Browser indexes are
updated twice per hour at xx:15 and xx:45. You can also reply to a message
or start a new message directly from the List Browser Interface (coming soon).
You do not have to be subscribed to the given list to use the List
Browser Interface in view-mode.
http://www.matronics.com/browselist/europa-list
*******************************************
*** Web Forums Bulletin Board Interface ***
*******************************************
A phpBB BBS web Forums front end is available for all Europa-List content.
content. The Forums contain all of the same content available via the email
distribution and found on the various archive viewing formats such as the
List Browse, etc. Any posts on the web Forums will be cross posted to the
respective email List, and posts to the Email List will be cross posted to
the web Forums.
You may view all List content on the Forums without any special login.
If you wish to post a message via the Web Forum interface, however, you
will need to Register. This is a simple process that takes only a few
minutes. A link to the Registration page can be found at the top of the
main web Forums page. Note that registering on the Forum web site also
enables you to send email posts to the Lists as well. You will also need to
Subscribe to the respective Email List as described above to receive the
Email Distribution of the List, however.
The Matroincs Email List Web BBS Forums can be found at the following URL:
http://forums.matronics.com
*********************************
*** Matronics Email List Wiki ***
*********************************
In an attempt to make it easy to store and find structured and often accessed
information, Matronics has installed a Wiki at:
http://wiki.matronics.com
The Wiki allows individuals to create web pages to contain useful information
for other users of the mailing lists and web site. Unlike an ordinary web page
where the content needs to be submitted to Matronics for inclusion, the Wiki
permits the users to construct their own pages and have them visible immediately.
While constructing pages for the Wiki is not difficult, some may not be
comfortable building pages. In that case, simply prepare the text and any
images and email it to:
wiki-support@matronics.com
One of the volunteers on that list will take your submission and construct
a Wiki page for you.
Often someone produces a particularly useful posting in email one one of the
Lists that would be of general interest. In that case Matronics may take that
post and convert it into a Wiki page.
*********************
*** List Archives ***
*********************
A file containing of all of the previous postings to the Europa-List is
available on line. The archive file information is available via the
Web and FTP in a number of forms. Each are briefly described below:
* Europa-List.FAQ
- Latest version of the Europa-List Frequently Asked Question
page (this document).
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete
- Complete file with most of the email header info removed and
page breaks inserted between messages.
* Europa-Archive.digest.vol-??
- Same as the file above, but broken up into small sections that
can more easily handled.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.zip
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but
in PKZIP format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
* Europa-Archive.digest.complete.Z
- Same as the Europa-Archive.digest.complete file above, but in
UNIX compress format. Use "binary" data transfer methods.
Download Via FTP
----------------
The archive file is available via anonymous FTP from ftp.matronics.com
in the "/pub/Archives" directory. It is updated daily and can be found in
a number of formats as described above. (All filenames are case sensitive.)
ftp://ftp.matronics.com/pub/Archives
Download Via Web
----------------
The archives are also available via a web listing. These can be found
toward the bottom of the following web page:
http://www.matronics.com/archives
******************************************
*** Complete List Web Archive Browsing ***
******************************************
All messages posted to the Europa-List are also available using the
Email List Archive Browsing feature. With this utility, all messages
in the List are indexed, and individual sub-archives can be browsed.
http://www.matronics.com/archive/archive-index.cgi?Europa
*****************************************
**** High-Speed Archive Search Engine ***
*****************************************
You can use the custom, high-performance Matronics Email List Search Engine
to quickly locate and browse any messages that have been posted to the
List. The Engine allows the user to easily search any of the currently
available List archives.
http://www.matronics.com/search
****************************
*** File and Photo Share ***
****************************
With the Matronics Email List File and Photo Share you can share pictures
and other data with members of the List without having to forward a
copy of it to everyone. To share your Files and Photos, simply email
them to:
pictures@matronics.com
!! ==> Please including the following information with each submission:
1) Email Lists that they are related to.
2) Your Full Name.
3) Your Email Address.
4) One line Subject description.
5) Multi-line, multi-paragraph description of topic.
6-x) One-line Description of each photo or file
Prior to public availability of the files and photos, each will be scanned
for viruses. Please also note that the process of making the files and
photos available on the web site is a pseudo-manual process, and I try to
process them every few days.
Following the availability of the new Photoshare, an email message will be
sent to the Email Lists enumerated in 1) above indicating that the new
Share is available and what the direct URL to it is.
For a current list of available Photoshares, have a look at the Main
Index Page:
http://www.matronics.com/photoshare
**************************
*** List Archive CDROM ***
**************************
A complete Matronics Email List Archive CD is available that contains
all of the archives since the beginning of each of the Lists. The archives
for all of the Lists are included on the CD along with a freeware search
engine written by a list member. The CD is burned the day you order it
and will contain archive received up to the last minute. They make
great gifts!
http://www.matronics.com/ArchiveCDROM
**********************************
*** List Support Contributions ***
**********************************
The Matronics Lists are run *completely* through the support of it members.
You won't find any PopUpAds, flashing Banner ads, or any other form of
annoying commercialism on either the Email Messages or the List web pages
associated with the Matronics Email Lists. Every year during November
I run a low-key, low-pressure "Fund Raiser" where, throughout the month,
I ask List members to make a Contribution in any amount with which they
are comfortable.
I will often offer free gifts with certain contribution levels during the
Fund Raiser to increase the participation. The gifts are usually donated
by companies that are themselves List members.
Your Contributions go directly to supporting the operation of the Lists
including the high-speed, business-class Internet connection, server
system hardware and software upgrades, and to partially offset the many
many hours I spend running, maintaining, upgrading, and developing the
variety of services found here.
Generally Contributions range from $20 to $100 and are completely voluntary
and non-compulsory. I ask only that if person enjoys the Lists and obtains
value from them, that they make a Contribution of equal magnitude.
Contributions are accepted throughout the year, and if you've just
subscribed, feel free to make a Contribution when you've settled in.
The website for making SSL Secure Contributions is listed below. There are
a variety of payment methods including Visa and MasterCard, PayPal, and
sending a personal check.
If you enjoy and value the List, won't you make a Contribution today to
support its continued operation?
http://www.matronics.com/contributions
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Message 10
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
Other Matronics Email List Services
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