Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 03:47 AM - Re: Control Column Boot (n7188u)
2. 11:01 AM - To gill or not to gill (n7188u)
3. 12:44 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (rparigoris)
4. 01:42 PM - Re: Control Column Boot (rparigoris)
5. 01:46 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (n7188u)
6. 02:18 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (Bud Yerly)
7. 02:55 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (Pete Zut)
8. 03:10 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (rparigoris)
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| Subject: | Re: Control Column Boot |
Thanks So much Tim. This will certainly make it easier. It may certainly go by
space mail for all we know but I am confident that it will get here.
Ron, I meant that the original floor had a single layer. I saw in your posting
that you added a balsa core plus the two layers of glass. I think that was wise.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505948#505948
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| Subject: | To gill or not to gill |
Hello Forum Members,
Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips installed
inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator at the firewall,
the battery also at the firewall and the engine's ignition modules are all
running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F.
In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summer where
the temps are normal.
I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the consensus gravitates
toward not opening the gills.
Any thoughts?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505957#505957
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| Subject: | Re: To gill or not to gill |
Hi Chris
As far as cooling goes, can you answer some questions so we have a better understanding
on your 912S with fixed pitch Mono XS:
** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator
** What coolant are you using
** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight
** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges
** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen?
** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft
side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono
** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall
** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot
start
** How does your engine start when hot
** Are your intake eyeballs factory size
** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl
** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip
** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your
radiators
I think one feature of gills is to cool engine upon shut down. Many open oil and
coolant access doors.
I read a note from Andy somewhere that he was test flying a Mono without doors,
he decided to reach out and check gills and couldn't believe just how much heat
was coming out of them.
I'm not flying yet, but have heard often you won't overheat on ground if you have
your top cowl off on a Mono. Stuck on ground too long I believe makes many
a mono get hot under the collar. I added 2 cooling fans that exit the gills. I'm
using two long can speed 400 electric motors they exit air out of the gills.
I have it set up where you can series or parallel motors. On low draw is 3 amps
and moves a reasonable amount of air. On high they move a ton of air at a
pretty darn high pitch speed. I forget exact pitch speed, but not far off from
leaf blower speed outside the cowl! Amp draw on high is 16 amps. I have a SD20S
sitting on the vacuum pad which pretty much has a 100% duty cycle but doesn't
put out too much at lower RPMs. I have a internal Dynamo that works better
at lower RPMs, but best keep draw under 12 amps if you want a long life. I choose
cooler, so if stuck on ground and getting hot, course pitch, cowl flap full
open, try and aim into wind and have a higher RPM and turn off internal Dynamo
and put gill fans on high. Will also put on low for a while upon shut down
to keep things cool.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505959#505959
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| Subject: | Re: Control Column Boot |
Hi Chris
I took some pics of stick boot info I have in my Build Manual last night figuring
it may help you:
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9Vgec8hQfchfRdWHJcNA?e=Pgt1uj
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505960#505960
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| Subject: | Re: To gill or not to gill |
That's a lot of questions Ron :) and I will answer what I remember right now, with
a little more time on the ones I don't:
** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator
> Yes
** What coolant are you using
> Dexcool 50/50.
** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight
> I think around 200-210 (old CHT and oil) in the middle of summer. With the new
engine I have seen around 180-185F max water and oil temps, more typical it
has been 165-175F (even with a quart of the oil cooler taped over. but OAT are
in the order of 50-65F. Both oil and water tend to track the same with oil being
a little colder.
** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges
> Yes with the previous engine. Not with the new.
** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen?
> Unknown
** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft
side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono
> I have a Bud Yerly firewall for the mono. Really cool (probably literally).
** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall
> Will have to look but Bud's firewall provides lots of clearance and a relatively
smooth transition for the air to flow out.
** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot
start
> I always follow what Rotax says in the OM. Cool down at least two minutes, got
o low idle (1400) turn off one ignition, wait a few seconds then the other.
** How does your engine start when hot
> Perfectly
** Are your intake eyeballs factory size
> Yes
** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl
> No
** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip
> Yes. Diffusers on both top and bottom. On the sides the duct just ends with some
rubber seals sealing most of the gap. The intent was to also add diffusers
to the sides later on but it is so good right now I am not bothering yet. I also
modified the duct, making it's top straighter to keep the x-sectional area
almost constant (muffler clearance permitting) until a few inches from the coolers
and then the area opens up relatively fast to drop the speed and raise the
air pressure just before it hits the coolers.
** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your
radiators
> Very very well. The duct and coolers are totally sealed with no gaps where air
could escape around them.
As I said, I really have no cooling issues so far. Don't know what will happen
when I go to Oshkosh and have to wait a long time to depart but compared to my
LongEZ I can run it on the ground and climb forever in the Florida heat and had
no issues so far. I attribute that to Bud's firewall and the duct/coolers sealing,
baffling and intake lip mods I implemented.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505961#505961
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| Subject: | To gill or not to gill |
Chris,
Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out the
bottom cowl is good, you will not need them. If the firewall is made as i
n Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it. But test.
The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling mo
ds are done. 914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb.
Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912. One can set up a bu
tterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oil bu
t don't forget and leave it closed. This warms for takeoff and is adjustab
le in flight. Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler and it wo
rks really well summer and winter in his Classic. Some have oil thermostat
s, and these are tolerable for most.
Like Ron mentioned. Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in mi
d summer and this is only a cruise problem. If cool all the time, check th
e sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the oil cooler
face and fly. I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps rather tha
n tapes, but the process is the same. Harbor Freight $50 and a long probe
to monitor the oil temp and other components. It works for testing just li
ke the tapes.
I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled TCU/
Servo box. I left the other as is for symmetry. It's an experimental! Ta
pe over the gills and if all is OK fill them. On some I removed the gills
and put in an access panel for a battery plug. On the other side, a small
access door to store the funnel for glycol filling and oil filling.
It will get hot in a few months. Test again in full summer. Make your dec
ision, then paint. It is better to do the painting in the summer mornings
anyway.
If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will overcool
. Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in the inlet.
On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull and arm mecha
nism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl. That=92s conveni
ent.
If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps. That
may not be convenient. The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both oi
l and glycol. That=92s convenient too.
Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism has
to be attached to the cowl. It is far easier to remove a plug on the top
of the footwell rather than a linkage. Make an electronic thermostat contr
ol using an Arduino and some sensors if you want. No matter how simple, a
cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under the airplane
. That is not hard, it is the getting back up that=92s hard.
Enjoy your plane. Sounds like you are having fun. That is the point of bu
ilding.
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> On Behalf Of n7188u
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2022 2:01 PM
Subject: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill
rb@gmail.com>>
Hello Forum Members,
Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips instal
led inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator at the
firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's ignition module
s are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F.
In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summer
where the temps are normal.
I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the consensu
s gravitates toward not opening the gills.
Any thoughts?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma
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| Subject: | Re: To gill or not to gill |
Fwiw i luv this cheap bluetooth thermometer for undercowl temp monitoring.
Even logs snd graphs.
https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B08S32598J/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_plhdr=t&
aaxitk=fa618ac76940a7a559b575ec82cdd4fb&hsa_cr_id=3515932720301&ref_=
sbx_be_s_sparkle_scm_asin_0_img&pd_rd_w=MdCil&pf_rd_p=6bf407be-0d81-4bc
8-b6f9-c624841b7524&pd_rd_wg=TD5tH&pf_rd_r=1GTNHFMSNY2CGHWB36YK&pd_rd_r
=3144dfe7-de34-4432-89e2-0defb040c739
Cheers peteZ
On Wed., Feb. 9, 2022, 5:28 p.m. Bud Yerly, <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
> Chris,
>
> Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out
> the bottom cowl is good, you will not need them. If the firewall is made
> as in Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it. But test.
>
> The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling
> mods are done. 914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb.
>
>
> Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912. One can set up a
> butterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oi
l
> but don't forget and leave it closed. This warms for takeoff and is
> adjustable in flight. Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler
> and it works really well summer and winter in his *Classic*. Some have
> oil thermostats, and these are tolerable for most.
>
>
> Like Ron mentioned. Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in
> mid summer and this is only a cruise problem. If cool all the time,
> check the sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the o
il
> cooler face and fly. I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps
> rather than tapes, but the process is the same. Harbor Freight $50 and a
> long probe to monitor the oil temp and other components. It works for
> testing just like the tapes.
>
>
> I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled
> TCU/Servo box. I left the other as is for symmetry. It's an
> experimental! Tape over the gills and if all is OK fill them. On some I
> removed the gills and put in an access panel for a battery plug. On the
> other side, a small access door to store the funnel for glycol filling an
d
> oil filling.
>
>
> It will get hot in a few months. Test again in full summer. Make your
> decision, then paint. It is better to do the painting in the summer
> mornings anyway.
>
>
> If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will
> overcool. Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in
> the inlet. On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull
> and arm mechanism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl. T
hat=99s
> convenient.
>
> If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps. Tha
t
> may not be convenient. The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both
> oil and glycol. That=99s convenient too.
>
>
> Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism
> has to be attached to the cowl. It is far easier to remove a plug on the
> top of the footwell rather than a linkage. Make an electronic thermostat
> control using an Arduino and some sensors if you want. No matter how
> simple, a cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under
> the airplane. That is not hard, it is the getting back up that=99s
hard.
>
>
> Enjoy your plane. Sounds like you are having fun. That is the point of
> building.
>
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <
> owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of n7188u
> Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2022 2:01 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill
>
>
>
>
> Hello Forum Members,
>
>
> Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips
> installed inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator
> at the firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's igniti
on
> modules are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F.
>
>
> In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summe
r
> where the temps are normal.
>
>
> I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the
> consensus gravitates toward not opening the gills.
>
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
>
> https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.
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| Subject: | Re: To gill or not to gill |
Hi Chris
If under severe conditions you are keeping things cool when hot out with shut down,
long climbs and long ground operations, guess you can leave them closed.
A few points:
** CHT is not the same as Coolant Temps. To measure Coolant temps, you measure
in the inlet hose between collector pot and coolant radiator.
** Worth while to calibrate new senders
** 912S install manual wants you to measure cylinder wall temps and make sure you
can stay below their maximum, worth while to measure under harshest environment,
temp mount sender along cylinder wall using a screw between fins to temporarily
hold it in position
Have fun!
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505964#505964
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