---------------------------------------------------------- Europa-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Wed 02/09/22: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 03:47 AM - Re: Control Column Boot (n7188u) 2. 11:01 AM - To gill or not to gill (n7188u) 3. 12:44 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (rparigoris) 4. 01:42 PM - Re: Control Column Boot (rparigoris) 5. 01:46 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (n7188u) 6. 02:18 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (Bud Yerly) 7. 02:55 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (Pete Zut) 8. 03:10 PM - Re: To gill or not to gill (rparigoris) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 03:47:37 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Control Column Boot From: "n7188u" Thanks So much Tim. This will certainly make it easier. It may certainly go by space mail for all we know but I am confident that it will get here. Ron, I meant that the original floor had a single layer. I saw in your posting that you added a balsa core plus the two layers of glass. I think that was wise. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505948#505948 ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 11:01:13 AM PST US Subject: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill From: "n7188u" Hello Forum Members, Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips installed inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator at the firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's ignition modules are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F. In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summer where the temps are normal. I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the consensus gravitates toward not opening the gills. Any thoughts? Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505957#505957 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 12:44:57 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: To gill or not to gill From: "rparigoris" Hi Chris As far as cooling goes, can you answer some questions so we have a better understanding on your 912S with fixed pitch Mono XS: ** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator ** What coolant are you using ** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight ** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges ** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen? ** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono ** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall ** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot start ** How does your engine start when hot ** Are your intake eyeballs factory size ** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl ** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip ** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your radiators I think one feature of gills is to cool engine upon shut down. Many open oil and coolant access doors. I read a note from Andy somewhere that he was test flying a Mono without doors, he decided to reach out and check gills and couldn't believe just how much heat was coming out of them. I'm not flying yet, but have heard often you won't overheat on ground if you have your top cowl off on a Mono. Stuck on ground too long I believe makes many a mono get hot under the collar. I added 2 cooling fans that exit the gills. I'm using two long can speed 400 electric motors they exit air out of the gills. I have it set up where you can series or parallel motors. On low draw is 3 amps and moves a reasonable amount of air. On high they move a ton of air at a pretty darn high pitch speed. I forget exact pitch speed, but not far off from leaf blower speed outside the cowl! Amp draw on high is 16 amps. I have a SD20S sitting on the vacuum pad which pretty much has a 100% duty cycle but doesn't put out too much at lower RPMs. I have a internal Dynamo that works better at lower RPMs, but best keep draw under 12 amps if you want a long life. I choose cooler, so if stuck on ground and getting hot, course pitch, cowl flap full open, try and aim into wind and have a higher RPM and turn off internal Dynamo and put gill fans on high. Will also put on low for a while upon shut down to keep things cool. Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505959#505959 ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:42:39 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: Control Column Boot From: "rparigoris" Hi Chris I took some pics of stick boot info I have in my Build Manual last night figuring it may help you: https://1drv.ms/u/s!Ah1S270Nwg9Vgec8hQfchfRdWHJcNA?e=Pgt1uj Ron P. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505960#505960 ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:46:37 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: To gill or not to gill From: "n7188u" That's a lot of questions Ron :) and I will answer what I remember right now, with a little more time on the ones I don't: ** Are you using supplied oil and coolant radiator > Yes ** What coolant are you using > Dexcool 50/50. ** What is max. CHT and Coolant Temps you have seen, on ground and in flight > I think around 200-210 (old CHT and oil) in the middle of summer. With the new engine I have seen around 180-185F max water and oil temps, more typical it has been 165-175F (even with a quart of the oil cooler taped over. but OAT are in the order of 50-65F. Both oil and water tend to track the same with oil being a little colder. ** Did you calibrate your CHT, OT and Coolant temp gauges > Yes with the previous engine. Not with the new. ** What is maximum cylinder wall Temps you have seen? > Unknown ** Are you using factory firewall, or did you do something else like put on aft side of UCMF like Bud suggests on a mono > I have a Bud Yerly firewall for the mono. Really cool (probably literally). ** What is your gap between the aft side of your radiator duct and firewall > Will have to look but Bud's firewall provides lots of clearance and a relatively smooth transition for the air to flow out. ** What procedure do you use to shut down when you know you will be doing a hot start > I always follow what Rotax says in the OM. Cool down at least two minutes, got o low idle (1400) turn off one ignition, wait a few seconds then the other. ** How does your engine start when hot > Perfectly ** Are your intake eyeballs factory size > Yes ** Did you do anything for eyeballs to aid flow on the inside of the cowl > No ** Did you modify the radiator duct entrance intake lip > Yes. Diffusers on both top and bottom. On the sides the duct just ends with some rubber seals sealing most of the gap. The intent was to also add diffusers to the sides later on but it is so good right now I am not bothering yet. I also modified the duct, making it's top straighter to keep the x-sectional area almost constant (muffler clearance permitting) until a few inches from the coolers and then the area opens up relatively fast to drop the speed and raise the air pressure just before it hits the coolers. ** Is your radiator duct sealed really well from front to back along with your radiators > Very very well. The duct and coolers are totally sealed with no gaps where air could escape around them. As I said, I really have no cooling issues so far. Don't know what will happen when I go to Oshkosh and have to wait a long time to depart but compared to my LongEZ I can run it on the ground and climb forever in the Florida heat and had no issues so far. I attribute that to Bud's firewall and the duct/coolers sealing, baffling and intake lip mods I implemented. Chris Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=505961#505961 ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 02:18:26 PM PST US From: Bud Yerly Subject: RE: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill Chris, Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out the bottom cowl is good, you will not need them. If the firewall is made as i n Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it. But test. The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling mo ds are done. 914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb. Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912. One can set up a bu tterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oil bu t don't forget and leave it closed. This warms for takeoff and is adjustab le in flight. Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler and it wo rks really well summer and winter in his Classic. Some have oil thermostat s, and these are tolerable for most. Like Ron mentioned. Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in mi d summer and this is only a cruise problem. If cool all the time, check th e sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the oil cooler face and fly. I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps rather tha n tapes, but the process is the same. Harbor Freight $50 and a long probe to monitor the oil temp and other components. It works for testing just li ke the tapes. I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled TCU/ Servo box. I left the other as is for symmetry. It's an experimental! Ta pe over the gills and if all is OK fill them. On some I removed the gills and put in an access panel for a battery plug. On the other side, a small access door to store the funnel for glycol filling and oil filling. It will get hot in a few months. Test again in full summer. Make your dec ision, then paint. It is better to do the painting in the summer mornings anyway. If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will overcool . Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in the inlet. On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull and arm mecha nism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl. That=92s conveni ent. If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps. That may not be convenient. The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both oi l and glycol. That=92s convenient too. Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism has to be attached to the cowl. It is far easier to remove a plug on the top of the footwell rather than a linkage. Make an electronic thermostat contr ol using an Arduino and some sensors if you want. No matter how simple, a cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under the airplane . That is not hard, it is the getting back up that=92s hard. Enjoy your plane. Sounds like you are having fun. That is the point of bu ilding. Bud Yerly -----Original Message----- From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com On Behalf Of n7188u Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2022 2:01 PM Subject: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill rb@gmail.com>> Hello Forum Members, Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips instal led inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator at the firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's ignition module s are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F. In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summer where the temps are normal. I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the consensu s gravitates toward not opening the gills. Any thoughts? Chris Read this topic online here: https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D505957%23505957&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb 0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0% 7C637800303589629525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2 luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2Q2NGzgZducxyUlXlDH GqENoBSlP9uyiSkNc594VM4A%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fd da8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6 37800303589629525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luM zIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4wtXX5yDEbwasdJc7j90EN dDweSxRtn3j3xGMI04Ibg%3D&reserved=0 %2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9 ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629525%7C Unknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiL CJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=tcvhO1Nrcgm1eI1%2FiItb70WH%2FD2LKyUpfvAiwU 3TtIY%3D&reserved=0 %2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9eb ff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629525%7CUn known%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJ XVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=eUybp%2BTx0n4F91w%2FvW1kyoNzHIkk647tTojtuCE0 MZU%3D&reserved=0 F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7 b108d9ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629 525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1 haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7UZoXrY35TdMslMZ1daan%2Flm%2Fdsq4MY8 WsCrOYlV3yI%3D&reserved=0 ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 02:55:28 PM PST US From: Pete Zut Subject: Re: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill Fwiw i luv this cheap bluetooth thermometer for undercowl temp monitoring. Even logs snd graphs. https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B08S32598J/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_plhdr=t& aaxitk=fa618ac76940a7a559b575ec82cdd4fb&hsa_cr_id=3515932720301&ref_= sbx_be_s_sparkle_scm_asin_0_img&pd_rd_w=MdCil&pf_rd_p=6bf407be-0d81-4bc 8-b6f9-c624841b7524&pd_rd_wg=TD5tH&pf_rd_r=1GTNHFMSNY2CGHWB36YK&pd_rd_r =3144dfe7-de34-4432-89e2-0defb040c739 Cheers peteZ On Wed., Feb. 9, 2022, 5:28 p.m. Bud Yerly, wrote: > Chris, > > Cooling gills are an issue for some Classics and XS but if the draw out > the bottom cowl is good, you will not need them. If the firewall is made > as in Cooling 101 on my website, and it all works, leave it. But test. > > The 912 and most 912S engines will slightly over cool if all the cooling > mods are done. 914s tend to run hotter, especially in the climb. > > > Cool oil this time of year is not uncommon with a 912. One can set up a > butterfly over the bottom of the glycol cooler on an XS to warm up the oi l > but don't forget and leave it closed. This warms for takeoff and is > adjustable in flight. Creighton Smith used a Lenovo glycol to oil cooler > and it works really well summer and winter in his *Classic*. Some have > oil thermostats, and these are tolerable for most. > > > Like Ron mentioned. Simply test. Does the oil cool in the climb fine in > mid summer and this is only a cruise problem. If cool all the time, > check the sensor, if it is OK, use aluminum tape to partially block the o il > cooler face and fly. I use a thermocouple to check my under hood temps > rather than tapes, but the process is the same. Harbor Freight $50 and a > long probe to monitor the oil temp and other components. It works for > testing just like the tapes. > > > I use my gills as a forced air exit for my footwell mounted fan cooled > TCU/Servo box. I left the other as is for symmetry. It's an > experimental! Tape over the gills and if all is OK fill them. On some I > removed the gills and put in an access panel for a battery plug. On the > other side, a small access door to store the funnel for glycol filling an d > oil filling. > > > It will get hot in a few months. Test again in full summer. Make your > decision, then paint. It is better to do the painting in the summer > mornings anyway. > > > If you do everything to cool, most of the time the 912 engine will > overcool. Make a cowl flap to close off the exit or put a butterfly in > the inlet. On an XS, a butterfly can be done and a mechanical push pull > and arm mechanism will not have to be disconnected to remove the cowl. T hat=99s > convenient. > > If the cowl flap is chosen it affects both the glycol and oil temps. Tha t > may not be convenient. The butterfly can be oil only or do one for both > oil and glycol. That=99s convenient too. > > > Cowl flaps are best to be moved electrically as the cowl flap mechanism > has to be attached to the cowl. It is far easier to remove a plug on the > top of the footwell rather than a linkage. Make an electronic thermostat > control using an Arduino and some sensors if you want. No matter how > simple, a cowl flap with a mechanical linkage requires me to crawl under > the airplane. That is not hard, it is the getting back up that=99s hard. > > > Enjoy your plane. Sounds like you are having fun. That is the point of > building. > > > Bud Yerly > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com < > owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of n7188u > Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2022 2:01 PM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Europa-List: To gill or not to gill > > > > > Hello Forum Members, > > > Quick question, I never opened my top cowling aft gills. Temp strips > installed inside the engine compartment confirm that my voltage regulator > at the firewall, the battery also at the firewall and the engine's igniti on > modules are all running bellow the strips minimum temperature of 130F. > > > In general I am battling low oil temperatures even during climbs in summe r > where the temps are normal. > > > I searched in the forums for info on this subject and it seems the > consensus gravitates toward not opening the gills. > > > Any thoughts? > > Chris > > > Read this topic online here: > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D505957%23505957&data=04%7C01%7C%7 Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C 0%7C637800303589629525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=2Q2NGzgZducxyUlXl DHGqENoBSlP9uyiSkNc594VM4A%3D&reserved=0 > > > - The Europa-List Email Forum - > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mat ronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b 08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63780030358 9629525%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI 6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=4wtXX5yDEbwasdJc7j90ENdDweSxRtn3 j3xGMI04Ibg%3D&reserved=0 > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums. matronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7 C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629525%7CUnknown%7C TWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0 %3D%7C3000&sdata=tcvhO1Nrcgm1eI1%2FiItb70WH%2FD2LKyUpfvAiwU3TtIY%3D&a mp;reserved=0 > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.ma tronics.com%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff33a7%7C8 4df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629525%7CUnknown%7CTW FpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3 D%7C3000&sdata=eUybp%2BTx0n4F91w%2FvW1kyoNzHIkk647tTojtuCE0MZU%3D& ;reserved=0 > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > Thank you for your generous support! > > -Matt Dralle, List Admin. > > --> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatron ics.com%2Fcontribution&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cb0fdda8fd9164b08d7b108d9ebff 33a7%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800303589629525%7CUnkn own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXV CI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=7UZoXrY35TdMslMZ1daan%2Flm%2Fdsq4MY8WsCrOYlV3y I%3D&reserved=0 > > ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 03:10:22 PM PST US Subject: Europa-List: Re: To gill or not to gill From: "rparigoris" Hi Chris If under severe conditions you are keeping things cool when hot out with shut down, long climbs and long ground operations, guess you can leave them closed. A few points: ** CHT is not the same as Coolant Temps. To measure Coolant temps, you measure in the inlet hose between collector pot and coolant radiator. ** Worth while to calibrate new senders ** 912S install manual wants you to measure cylinder wall temps and make sure you can stay below their maximum, worth while to measure under harshest environment, temp mount sender along cylinder wall using a screw between fins to temporarily hold it in position Have fun! Ron P. 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