Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 07:51 AM - Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (n7188u)
2. 08:04 AM - Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (n7188u)
3. 08:13 AM - Re: Sun N Fun 2022 Forum (Erich Trombley)
4. 08:23 AM - Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (Alan Burrill)
5. 08:46 AM - Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (n7188u)
6. 10:02 AM - Flying with full down trim (Pete)
7. 10:38 AM - Re: Flying with full down trim (David stranfaer)
8. 11:26 AM - Re: Flying with full down trim (Christoph Both)
9. 11:57 AM - Re: Flying with full down trim (dmac7)
10. 12:04 PM - Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (William Daniell)
11. 12:13 PM - Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (n7188u)
12. 01:26 PM - Re: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (Bud Yerly)
13. 03:32 PM - Re: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank (William Daniell)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
Hello,
Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the vent line
at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near the interface
between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume there was contact
with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now I am concerned about
the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure there means bye bye
all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones at the bottom of the tank
and they look fine with no leaks but I am now concerned about the suitability
of these coupling hoses.
When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old ones in
the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high quality USCG
approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with gasoline). Only
thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe as in the old couplings
is generally in A2 filler hose.
Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something like
this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints as to what
people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would be better but
the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses so not sure they
would work.
I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in the tank
come out? Not looking forward to that job :(
Ideas?
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506438#506438
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
To help determine suitability this are the specs of the hose I used:
This Novaflex 355 series is a special order soft wall A2 fuel fill hose that is
also marine/coast guard certified to SAEJ1527 Spec. This is a real sturdy and
versatile fuel filler hose. Reinforcement is nylon and is much more malleable
than the wire reinforced hoses. Made In The U.S.A. See more details below.
Inner Diameter: 1" Inch or 25mm
Applications: Automotive, Marine, Fuel Filler, Oil & Diesel Transfer.
Outer Diameter: 1-1/2"
Wall Thickness: 1/4"
Wall Reinforcement Spiral Nylon Cord.
Rating: Coast Guard Certified SAEJ1527 Type A2
Min Order Qty: 12" or 1ft
Max Order Qty: 600 or 50ft
Fuel Types: Leaded, Unleaded / Petrol / Diesel And Oil - E85 and biodiesel up
to B20
Cover Material: CR (Chloroprene Rubber)
Inner Tube Material: NBR (Nitrile Buna Rubber)
Temperature Rating: -34F to +257F
Country Of Manufacture: USA.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506439#506439
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| Subject: | Re: Sun N Fun 2022 Forum |
Hi Jim,
My wife and I plan to attend SNF. Not sure which days just yet as we are with
a group of other pilots renting a condo on the beach at Clearwater.
See ya next week,
Erich
N28ET
Classic Mono 914
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
I used silicon hoses that are declared fuel proof.
This site is in the UK but serves as a sample.
https://www.merlinmotorsport.co.uk/s/samco-silicone-hoses-kits/samco-straigh
t-silicone-hose-lengths
Alan
Sent from my iPhone
> On 30 Mar 2022, at 15:53, n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello,
>
> Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the v
ent line at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near t
he interface between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume there
was contact with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now I am c
oncerned about the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure there m
eans bye bye all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones at the bo
ttom of the tank and they look fine with no leaks but I am now concerned abo
ut the suitability of these coupling hoses.
>
> When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old o
nes in the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high quali
ty USCG approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with gasol
ine). Only thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe as in t
he old couplings is generally in A2 filler hose.
>
> Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something l
ike this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints as
to what people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would be b
etter but the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses so n
ot sure they would work.
>
> I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in th
e tank come out? Not looking forward to that job :(
>
> Ideas?
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506438#506438
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
Thanks Alan.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506442#506442
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| Subject: | Flying with full down trim |
So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed cause
to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.
Conclusion: balderdash.
My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated to
read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and typically
take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.
I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down trim
without issue. Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern.
Surely not anything startling.
Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that reports
conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the more
reasonable conclusion.
FWIW YMMV etc.
Cheers,
PeteZ
C-GNPZ
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with full down trim |
Did you also try the other way eg full up?
Sent from Davids iPhone
> On 30 Mar 2022, at 18:02, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
>
> So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed
cause to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.
>
> Conclusion: balderdash.
>
> My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated
to read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and
typically take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.
>
> I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down trim
without issue. Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern.
Surely not anything startling.
>
> Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that reports
conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the more
reasonable conclusion.
>
> FWIW YMMV etc.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
> C-GNPZ
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with full down trim |
Pete,
Did you try trim all the way up?
Christoph
On 2022-03-30, 2:02 PM, "owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of Pete"
<owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com on behalf of peterz@zutrasoft.com>
wrote:
CAUTION: This email comes from outside Acadia. Verify the sender and use caution
with any requests, links or attachments.
So after reading that very strange European accident report which attributed
cause to the full down trim and stick forces, i decided to give it a try.
Conclusion: balderdash.
My classic has a typical slight rear of center CG, trim indicator calibrated
to read center when the trim is in line with the fuse-tailplane-moulding, and
typically take off with 2.5 lines down trim on the indicator.
I flew 1.2hrs, including 2 circuits, from startup to shutdown at full down
trim without issue. Sure the feel/pressure is off, but nothing of major concern.
Surely not anything startling.
Sure, every plane flys differently, but i still cannot understand that reports
conclusions. Fuel starvation on a steep climb-out appears to me to be the
more reasonable conclusion.
FWIW YMMV etc.
Cheers,
PeteZ
C-GNPZ
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Flying with full down trim |
Pete thanks for testing this config, good to know. I think of the Swiss cheese
model of accident factor's, the report said take-off was attempted with nearly
empty fuel tank ( 6.5 liters or less in main ), on a day with winds 15kt gusting
23kt not a good day for a steep climb out, and pilots habit of steep climbs,
the trim situation may or may not have been different than previous flights.
They didn't address the likelihood of fuel starvation at the steep pitch angle
with low fuel in the tank. We can only try to learn from this, mistakes...
we all make em. Keeping a little distance from the edge of the performance
envelope seems a good idea.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506447#506447
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
Chris
I used 1" radiator hose. There shouldn't be any direct contact with fuel
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 10:18 n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Last weekend I had a failure of the 1 inch ID fuel coupling hose for the
> vent line at the top of the tank. The interior of the hose had swollen near
> the interface between the fitting and the PE boss in the tank (I assume
> there was contact with gasoline at this interface) and pulled out. But now
> I am concerned about the pickups at the bottom of the tank since a failure
> there means bye bye all fuel (except for 2.5 gallons). I checked the ones
> at the bottom of the tank and they look fine with no leaks but I am now
> concerned about the suitability of these coupling hoses.
>
> When I got my old kit I replaced these couplings with hoses like the old
> ones in the kit (red stripe, same braiding, thickness, etc). I got high
> quality USCG approved but they are Type A2 (not for continuous contact with
> gasoline). Only thing with same characteristics and after all, red stripe
> as in the old couplings is generally in A2 filler hose.
>
> Of course I could go to Europa to order these couplings but for something
> like this I think I should try to spec something here in the US. Any hints
> as to what people have used and were to buy? Type A1 (or A1-15) hose would
> be better but the ones I found online look like stiff heavily braided hoses
> so not sure they would work.
>
> I also wonder how hard it will be to replace them? Will the fittings in
> the tank come out? Not looking forward to that job :(
>
> Ideas?
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506438#506438
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
Thanks Will.
I would think then my coupling hoses are the correct selection.
Maybe what happened with the vent fitting is that the hole around tank boss was
a little small and the coupling hose, instead of going all the way up to the
tank, it was butting against the cockpit module fiberglass around the tank's boss.
Maybe movement of the tank pushed the coupling out allowing a little gasoline to
lubricate the joint and it eventually just popped out.
To repair, I ground away some of the CM fiberglass around the boss to create a
enough clearance for the coupling hose to fit through and installed a new coupling
hose.
I'll keep and eye on it as well as the pickups at the tanks bottom. Flew yesterday
and it was great. Today gusting 24 crossed to the runway so again grounded
[Evil or Very Mad]
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506449#506449
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
I've used marine RP1 style hose (normally comes as 1 1/4 - 4 inch but can be found
at one inch) works well without issue. It is thicker than fuel line, doesn't
like to stretch, but works.
I have seen guys use marine fuel hose: Trident 327 brand CE certified, SAE J1527,
USCG type A2, ISO 7840 A2, ABYC H-24 & H-33 and it is available from 1-4 inches.
It is thinner and fuel safe.
I do not understand why the hose you were supplied would swell. Sounds strange
for sure.
I don't use heater hose unless they are silicone due to the auto fuel tends to
attack the rubber, it stinks, and gets yucky soft after only a few years. It
also starts to crack after only a few years when it dries out.
I don't use PTFE hose as like our tank, if you dry it out and flex it, it will
fail as it cracks. It also does not slip over the bosses. Too expensive and
doesn't fit. I don't use it on oil lines as it gets brittle and breaks the liner
then over time, just weeps out oil. Nasty.
Look at your boss off the tank. Smooth the rough areas off, check the fit of the
appropriate FS metal fitting used, as we want the F09a/b to fit inside the
boss on the tank and have the flange flush as possible.
There is nothing wrong with Pro Seal around the inside and around the hose contact
area. The hose then is protected by the sealant, so it tends to last forever.
(Pro Seal is expensive, but there are acceptable substitutes sold by Aircraft
Spruce in smaller and cheaper quantities.)
Red stripe marine fuel tank filler hose (or exhaust hose even which has a blue
stripe) has been a standard of mine for years. Both the red and blue stripe
are thick and stiff. The one inch fuel supply line made by Parker or Goodyear
is excellent but not common so I go to marine hose supply, this hose only an
1/8 inch thick and flexible but is delicate as the liner tears if the surface
is rough or forced over a lip. As you said, it is not as thick and stiff which
is nice and the clamps fit. Locally Amazon Hose Supply sold me a foot of RP1
every few years... All my fuel hose attachments are coated with a thin film
of Pro Seal or similar as well as the clamps. I've never had a failure but I
had to go with larger hose clamps at times. This hose lasts well over 5 years,
but I change it anyway. The Sealant requires me to carefully cut the hose to
peel it off, but I plan for that. Thin hose is easy to remove, thick heavily
reinforced tube are tougher.
You have many marine and hose supply dealers. If you look at the supply house,
you will get what you need.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of n7188u
Sent: Wednesday, March 30, 2022 11:04 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank
To help determine suitability this are the specs of the hose I used:
This Novaflex 355 series is a special order soft wall A2 fuel fill hose that is
also marine/coast guard certified to SAEJ1527 Spec. This is a real sturdy and
versatile fuel filler hose. Reinforcement is nylon and is much more malleable
than the wire reinforced hoses. Made In The U.S.A. See more details below.
Inner Diameter: 1" Inch or 25mm
Applications: Automotive, Marine, Fuel Filler, Oil & Diesel Transfer.
Outer Diameter: 1-1/2"
Wall Thickness: 1/4"
Wall Reinforcement Spiral Nylon Cord.
Rating: Coast Guard Certified SAEJ1527 Type A2
Min Order Qty: 12" or 1ft
Max Order Qty: 600 or 50ft
Fuel Types: Leaded, Unleaded / Petrol / Diesel And Oil - E85 and biodiesel up
to B20
Cover Material: CR (Chloroprene Rubber)
Inner Tube Material: NBR (Nitrile Buna Rubber)
Temperature Rating: -34F to +257F
Country Of Manufacture: USA.
Read this topic online here:
https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D506439%23506439&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf5359d84305346dc1ed208da125f5e6a%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637842498067668212%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=%2FJbL4uX1L2NoDcGGEs%2Bi8jDrMoUyzzJ%2FMW2nbTItCMo%3D&reserved=0
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Fuel coupling hoses at bottom of fuel tank |
Yes my limit is 12 kt cross if i dont absolutely have to fly.
Fuel tank. It doesnt sound exactly normal but maybe im not visualizing
correctly. Could you send me a pic?
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Wed, Mar 30, 2022, 14:24 n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Thanks Will.
>
> I would think then my coupling hoses are the correct selection.
>
> Maybe what happened with the vent fitting is that the hole around tank
> boss was a little small and the coupling hose, instead of going all the way
> up to the tank, it was butting against the cockpit module fiberglass around
> the tank's boss.
>
> Maybe movement of the tank pushed the coupling out allowing a little
> gasoline to lubricate the joint and it eventually just popped out.
>
> To repair, I ground away some of the CM fiberglass around the boss to
> create a enough clearance for the coupling hose to fit through and
> installed a new coupling hose.
>
> I'll keep and eye on it as well as the pickups at the tanks bottom. Flew
> yesterday and it was great. Today gusting 24 crossed to the runway so again
> grounded [Evil or Very Mad]
>
> Chris
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=506449#506449
>
>
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