Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:50 AM - Re: installation of Stall Strips (Area-51)
2. 04:49 AM - Re: Re: installation of Stall Strips (Pete)
3. 08:24 AM - Re: Re: installation of Stall Strips (Bud Yerly)
4. 06:22 PM - Re: installation of Stall Strips (n7188u)
5. 07:37 PM - Re: Re: installation of Stall Strips (Bud Yerly)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: installation of Stall Strips |
These are all great and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding how anyone can
still or would want to stall an aircraft's wing once they've memorised the
stall stick position of that individual aircraft? Just don't go there unless you
intentionally or unintentionally want to enter a spin or are 12" off the deck
shooting for a touchdown... The europa exhibits sufficient amount off pre-stall
buffeting on the stabilator to tell the pilot "hey things are about to get
really pear shaped, unload the stick"!! But i guess the stall strips will just
amplify this, so that's a good thing...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508058#508058
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| Subject: | Re: installation of Stall Strips |
I would guess they provide more of a warning and less of a wing drop for those
situations where the pilot is distracted due to circumstance? I instead added
both a Smartass Talking ASI and a CYA100 AOA to both bark at me when im getting
too close when in that situation. Fingers xd.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Oct 11, 2022, at 4:03 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> These are all great and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding how anyone
can still or would want to stall an aircraft's wing once they've memorised the
stall stick position of that individual aircraft? Just don't go there unless
you intentionally or unintentionally want to enter a spin or are 12" off the
deck shooting for a touchdown... The europa exhibits sufficient amount off pre-stall
buffeting on the stabilator to tell the pilot "hey things are about to
get really pear shaped, unload the stick"!! But i guess the stall strips will
just amplify this, so that's a good thing...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508058#508058
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: installation of Stall Strips |
Guys:
I've felt the same way long ago as many of our folks.
However, if you fly with other people, want to have an aircraft that is sal
eable to the basically trained, minimally qualified civil pilot just gettin
g into or returning to aviation, one has to consider the safety devices in
his aircraft. After all, he was trained to pay attention to the warning ho
rn.
As I get older and more feeble, my experience and knowledge wane or are rec
alled slower, reactions are slower, attention to detail begins to become fu
zzy and it is nice to have a simple warning device not unlike our autos to
keep us from over-speeding, warning of excessive closure, proximity, door o
r seatbelt unsecure, etc.
Nearly all those new to the Europa tend to fail to recognize the approach t
o the stall when not looking at the airspeed indicator and nose position.
In the checkout, I always made sure they were competent, however with time
unless practiced, we all forget. Unfortunately, many newbies to the Europa
fly higher speeds to assure they do not stall because they remember there
was a wing drop or heard of a guy that scared or killed himself. So, they
cross the threshold at 90 and attempt to land. Worse yet some fly aggressi
vely low to the ground buzzing around and can and do loose control very nea
r the ground sometimes with fatal results. This reflects on the aircraft r
eputation, not the pilot. To the non pilot masses/wives, =93He was an airl
ine/military/experienced instructor and could not have EVER flown the aircr
aft out of control, it must have been the aircraft, system manufacturers or
an act of God that caused him to crash=94. Whereas nothing could be furth
er from the truth in many cases.
The proficient Europa flyer is not the problem. The pilot who is a student
of aviation and flies by the numbers, with checklist discipline and mainta
ins his aircraft is not the problem either.
The experienced or inexperienced casual Europa flier is the problem. We pu
t warning systems in aircraft to help prevent the casual flier (or old guys
like me) from getting into trouble.
In this thread we discuss stall strips. These stall strips are simply an a
erodynamic gimmick that when properly installed will give airframe warning
and perhaps correct wing drop or other aerodynamic nuisance for the pilot t
hat is inattentive or otherwise distracted. The stall strip is virtually f
ree, requires no electricity, should not diminish performance, should be ea
sy to install and position. Anyone flying the aircraft would note the airf
rame buffet, and normally would take preventative action to avoid a stall,
especially at low altitude.
Electric warning devices are great today, they can be fine tuned and are re
latively inexpensive. They do require setup, construction, wire running, a
nd can fail, but they give another visual or audio warning of approaching t
he stall. Today our EFIS has warning indicators built into the display (fo
r those who aren=92t looking outside the cockpit) and an audio warning into
the headset and or a warning horn for those inattentively looking outside.
I personally like an aural warning of low speed and high angle if maneuveri
ng while looking outside the aircraft. Unfortunately, with the advent of A
NR and superior soundproofing of headsets, it is difficult to hear some war
ning horns (even the reed type squeakers like in a Cessna 150/162/172/etc.
are often missed by pilots). In that case we add a warning light, but the
sun angle can make that difficult to see. So, we put the warning horn, voi
ce, beeper into the intercom headset to assure the pilot gets the message:
you=92re approaching a critical AoA (stall). The nonelectrical simple stal
l strip adds a comfortable rumble about 5 knots above the stall. Almost al
l pilots are in tune to the feel of the aircraft. If it starts to buffet a
nd shake, one should unload, recover, and glance in the cockpit and find ou
t what the problem is. I don't know a pilot that is not in tune to aircraf
t vibration.
Finally, not all aircraft have a comfortable stall. Rig, build issues, and
incidence angles can cause a slight roll or even a loss of lateral control
approaching the stall. Stall strips applied properly can adjust the stall
break.
Usually, I frown on doing stall strips to correct a stall. I prefer to fix
the wing. However, the reason for the Europa POH stall strip is there to
give an aerodynamic warning to the pilot. It is cheap, requires no electri
cs, but is a bit time consuming to install and test. I find the stall stri
p enjoyable for a warning to pilots checking out that have a tendency to ro
und out high and attempt to try to catch the aircraft as it sinks (what I c
alled the falling leaf approach to landing in other papers). Without the s
tall strips I have to send them around. I also find them useful when doing
an extremely minimum roll approach and landing over an obstacle in gusty c
onditions. As I cross the threshold, I find I can arrest the rate of desce
nt and adjust power simply by feel of the aircraft rumble just beginning wh
ereas without the stall strips I=92m watching the airspeed and frankly land
ing a bit faster lengthening the float and rollout. (I do admit I can land
slower without the stall strip by a couple of knots with practice.)
Just another example of the 20,000 compromises an airplane is. Back to wor
k for me know.
Bud Yerly
Make your airplane your own, but never compromise on its handling. Fix it.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> On Behalf Of Area-51
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 3:51 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: installation of Stall Strips
<mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
These are all great and I'm genuinely having trouble understanding how anyo
ne can still or would want to stall an aircraft's wing once they've memoris
ed the stall stick position of that individual aircraft? Just don't go ther
e unless you intentionally or unintentionally want to enter a spin or are 1
2" off the deck shooting for a touchdown... The europa exhibits sufficient
amount off pre-stall buffeting on the stabilator to tell the pilot "hey thi
ngs are about to get really pear shaped, unload the stick"!! But i guess th
e stall strips will just amplify this, so that's a good thing... =F0=9F=A4
=B7=F0=9F=8F=BC=8D=99=82=EF=B8=8F
Read this topic online here:
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Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: installation of Stall Strips |
Bud, I enjoyed your last reply.
I personally don't have stall strips in my airplane. I find it gives plenty of
warning before the stall and it stalls straight but yes, it is not very tolerant
of mis-coordination. I attribute my sensitivity to detecting the stall to years
of flying gliders (often flown at the verge of stall) and full time CFI duties.
However, I liked your posting because despite me not being very old I am starting
to get there and you are right on that with age having additional safety measures
makes sense.
So yes, I will install stall strips in the future or if one day I consider selling
my Europa (hopefully not in a very long time).
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508063#508063
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| Subject: | Re: installation of Stall Strips |
Chris,
That is why I made my stall strips, tested them and then painted and remove
d them. It only takes a minute and some tape to put them on but like you a
nd most others, we get used to our aircraft and don't install them as it is
just more testing. I like tinkering and I prefer an airplane with a pre-s
tall rumble warning so I took the time to make them. Other pilots flying w
ith me like the rumble and stall warner combo to use as a point to recover/
slow flight at.
On some Europa's with a forward CG and built light I can do a full aft stic
k (deep) stall without the stall strips but it is rare. With stall strips,
I can coax a full aft stick stall in many of them. But there is no need t
o do a full aft stick stall in reality. It is a confidence maneuver in som
e aircraft to demonstrate coordination, rudder control, and aircraft capabi
lity. There is no need for doing that in a light aircraft, but some Europa
's can do it. There is no need to ever do it beyond flight test again unle
ss trying to ascertain if a damage repair is done acceptably. Other than t
hat...It=92s a Worthless Maneuver which done improperly can result in an ou
t of control situation. Be at least three mistakes high when doing any sta
lls or aggressive maneuvering.
Mostly I like the gentle rumble during a clean hard turn, warning me of too
much pull (AoA) in an airplane. With the stall strips I find N12AY with f
ull flaps doesn't give me 5 knots of pre-stall warning but three with the s
tall strips, and the stall speed is 2 knots faster with plenty of warning.
It also tends to drop the left wing in the fully configured stall unless I
add in a bit more rudder. Without the stall strips the left wing drop is
a little more pronounced but with proper rudder control I can make it bobbl
e up and down somewhat violently as I get to full aft stick in a heavy buff
et (the buffet without the strips is heavy and is a bit scary). With the s
tall strips, it simply rumbles lightly, mushes and has a much less pronounc
ed bobble. With the stall strips, 12AY will break before you can achieve f
ull aft stick. Maybe I'll work on that during this winters annual if I get
bored. Of course, it is not broke, so why fix it.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> On Behalf Of n7188u
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2022 9:22 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: installation of Stall Strips
rb@gmail.com>>
Bud, I enjoyed your last reply.
I personally don't have stall strips in my airplane. I find it gives plenty
of warning before the stall and it stalls straight but yes, it is not very
tolerant of mis-coordination. I attribute my sensitivity to detecting the
stall to years of flying gliders (often flown at the verge of stall) and fu
ll time CFI duties.
However, I liked your posting because despite me not being very old I am st
arting to get there and you are right on that with age having additional sa
fety measures makes sense.
So yes, I will install stall strips in the future or if one day I consider
selling my Europa (hopefully not in a very long time).
Chris
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