Today's Message Index:
----------------------
0. 01:08 AM - Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... (Matt Dralle)
1. 03:05 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Brian Phillips)
2. 03:30 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Pete)
3. 05:13 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (William Daniell)
4. 08:13 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Brian Phillips)
5. 11:06 PM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Area-51)
Message 0
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Please Make a Contribution to Support Your Lists... |
Dear Listers,
Just a reminder that November is the Annual List Fund Raiser. Please make a Contribution
today to support the continued operation and upgrade of these great
List services!! Pick up a really nice free gift with your qualifying Contribution
too!
The Contribution Site is fast and easy:
https://matronics.com/contribution
or by dropping a personal check in the mail to:
Matt Dralle / Matronics
581 Jeannie Way
Livermore CA 94551-0347
Thank you!
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 1
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit
work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would
never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking
about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of
the US based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does
seem a little high, combined with no detonation detection feedback loop,
does sound a bit risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI
software, they supply a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail
pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, again an added risk. Add to
that limited operational history, makes the 914 look an even better
outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>
> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa, as it is a
> very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
> forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG
> is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Now we move the battery
> back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as
> possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.
> The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier
> than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS fuselage module
> and firewall forward.The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but
> will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot
> range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.The 914 doubles
> the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the same
> 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.The mono is
> faster and lighter of course.
>
> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Customers moved
> the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel.The
> only advantage was more power with less reliability.Fuel burn was
> basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did I
> gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a
> bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.BTU
> requirements are the same *for the same amount of power* at the same
> fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.Aircraft engines
> run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as good
> as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally
> aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops leaning after about
> 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.So, an after market leaning
> system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to improve fuel
> efficiency of the 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude
> operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher cost. I
> believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great airplane.
> Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as we all know,
> there are techniques and inspections required to keep it running like new.
>
> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
> maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine is an issue many
> ignore.The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.Prop
> strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>
> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the
> valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Repeat at 1000 hours
> and the engine is good to 1500 hours.The cleanup of the valves
> restores compression to like new or better than new and is really a
> surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>
> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I
> do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some
> years ago.They do put out more power.But for how long?Over the years
> the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and
> last.Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200
> hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that just want more
> power but won't pay for it to get power _and reliability_.I was around
> for the first of these Big Bore mods.As Edge Performance has found
> out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax parts are
> now under more stress and required "upgrade".This costs money.My hats
> off to them, as they have at least backed their engines.In their
> defense, some of our cowboys here in the States are running regular
> car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid!
>
> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas,
> gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements,
> require greater cooling mass, and of course add cost.An airplane is
> 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.If you change one thing,
> you affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>
> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>
> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the
> 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>
> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of
> nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>
> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase
> it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>
> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the
> trigear.The mono is much better at still basically a square root
> curve.More horsepower doesnt give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>
> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant
> speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel
> burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a
> cruise climb.I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise
> (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and
> Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.The
> 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density altitude, it
> allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from the
> surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is our
> human physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We know how to
> maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup, troubleshoot
> or simply run a data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10
> without a special dongle.I dont have Windows 11 yet, but it should
> work also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is
> easy to follow.Always follow the engine installation manual in
> conjunction with the airframe firewall forward manual .
>
> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and
> does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Extensive
> work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.The 915 is
> unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a buds system
> for the average owner to tell you what its doing but the
> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.Much study and patience is
> needed as the 915 goes through its teething issues.It runs lean on the
> ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an extended taxi
> out.Automatic systems means you the pilot lose control.Many 912iS
> owners hate the power drop off and find economy only comes through
> lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same for the same speed
> after an engine change from the S to the iS.The 915 has a similar
> issue with the power requirements.It is not like hopping into your BMW
> tubo and everything works.It is still like the 1980s first gen fuel
> injection and turbo mods.Today it all works flawlessly in our autos,
> but with larger cooling requirements and components taking up more
> space under the hood.The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine
> electrically either.Look at Sling and their learning curve.The 4 place
> needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so much.Guys are looking hard at
> the difference.
>
> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light
> weight.It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload
> airplane.More weight makes the induced drag go up.The mono airframe
> was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an
> empty weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900 pounds empty weight,
> the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased.In the
> States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is essential for getting
> around west of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from
> Canada to Florida for the winter, they need that range also.Frankly, a
> bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer
> day.More horsepower is not as important as more torque.Torque turns
> the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>
> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed
> with stock components.Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight
> down.Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on
> a very small airframe.
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this
> week - 08/11/22
>
> <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>
> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and single
> point of failure (FI).
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> >
>
> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>
> >
>
> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass is
a
> concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
Message 2
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
My experience conversing with Edge=99s principal over the years, fwiw,
is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with s
ome critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers
=9Cprove him wrong=9D. And some have (ex: cracked/failed welded
crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering basi
cs).
Difficult to watch.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much a
ppreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>
> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit w
ork, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would never
finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about the Edg
e 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US based big bo
re kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combin
ed with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge p
erformance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressur
e reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working harder, ag
ain an added risk. Add to that limited operational history, makes the 914 lo
ok an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 compromises flying in close fo
rmation.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially the Europa, as it is a ve
ry compact aircraft. If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG forward, r
equires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is going to be so
mewhere around the spinner. Now we move the battery back, run longer heavie
r cables and as much more to the rear as possible such as autopilots, ELTs, e
tc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps going up. The Europa X
S is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS f
uselage module and firewall forward. The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular per
former but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at al
titudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range. The 9
12S raised the cruise about 5 knots more. The 914 doubles the climb rate, u
ps cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on
a tricycle gear aircraft of course. The mono is faster and lighter of cour
se.
>>
>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection. Customers moved the
boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel. The only ad
vantage was more power with less reliability. Fuel burn was basically the s
ame at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did I gain? Slightly more power fo
r climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow climb was n
ecessary to cool. BTU requirements are the same for the same amount of powe
r at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement. Aircraft e
ngines run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as good
as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally aspirated e
ngine with no leaning. The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet in the n
ormally aspirated engine. So, an after market leaning system is necessary f
or the high altitude flyers to improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S. The
Rotax 914 is ideal for higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the
Europa but at a higher cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Euro
pa into a great airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S b
ut as we all know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep it r
unning like new.
>>
>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb maintena
nce/oil changes. Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore. The valv
es can and do contact the piston if oversped. Prop strikes are ignored also
by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves,
inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000 hours and the en
gine is good to 1500 hours. The cleanup of the valves restores compression t
o like new or better than new and is really a surprise when a 914 burps afte
r only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>
>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do w
ith the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some years ago.
They do put out more power. But for how long? Over the years the stock R
otax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last. Most of the Big
Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours. But we have many cowboys h
ere in the States that just want more power but won't pay for it to get powe
r and reliability. I was around for the first of these Big Bore mods. As E
dge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robu
st Rotax parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade". This costs
money. My hats off to them, as they have at least backed their engines. I
n their defense, some of our =9Ccowboys=9D here in the States ar
e running regular car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I can=99
t fix stupid!
>>
>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas, ga
in weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements, require gre
ater cooling mass, and of course add cost. An airplane is 20,000 compromise
s flying in close formation. If you change one thing, you affect 20 others.
Choose wisely.
>>
>> Example: Charts are scare still for the 915.
>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 91
4 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of nea
rly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it d
ecreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>
>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.
The mono is much better at still basically a square root curve. More horse
power doesn=99t give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>>
>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed
prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and will
get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I can put
out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145 for a trig
ear) or max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the same octane fu
el as the 914 so no advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of most of the issu
es with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to m
ax continuous from the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,00
0 which is our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization). We k
now how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup, troublesh
oot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running Windows 7 through 10 wi
thout a special dongle. I don=99t have Windows 11 yet, but it should w
ork also. Carbs are easy to balance, and the installation manual is easy to
follow. Always follow the engine installation manual in conjunction with t
he airframe firewall forward manual .
>>
>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does n
ot fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards. Extensive work is nece
ssary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is unmaintainable b
ut for plugs and oil change without a =9Cbuds=9D system for the a
verage owner to tell you what it=99s doing but the troubleshooting man
ual is a bit sparce. Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes thro
ugh its teething issues. It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will
overheat easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic systems means you t
he pilot lose control. Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find e
conomy only comes through lower power. They have found fuel burn is the sam
e for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS. The 915 h
as a similar issue with the power requirements. It is not like hopping into
your BMW tubo and everything works. It is still like the 1980=99s fi
rst gen fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all works flawlessly in our
autos, but with larger cooling requirements and components taking up more s
pace under the hood. The 915 is not quite a plug and play engine electrical
ly either. Look at Sling and their learning curve. The 4 place needs 140-1
50 HP. The two place not so much. Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>
>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light weig
ht. It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane. More w
eight makes the induced drag go up. The mono airframe was not designed to g
o faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weight of 900 pounds
. If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed d
rops and range is decreased. In the States, a 1000 mile per day range airpl
ane is essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my sn
ow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need that range a
lso. Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, and a l
onger day. More horsepower is not as important as more torque. Torque tur
ns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>
>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with s
tock components. Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down. Not b
y slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small air
frame.
>>
>> Just my thoughts.
>>
>> Best Regards,
>> Bud Yerly
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@ma
tronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week -
08/11/22
>>
>>
>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and s
ingle point of failure (FI).
>> Cheers,
>> PeteZ
>>
>>
>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>> >
ial@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass
is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing reliabil
ity but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforu
ms.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C
%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7
C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoi
V2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQ
BLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>> --> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2
Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d
1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63803
6785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLC
JBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig
2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0
>> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>> --> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2
Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac31
37511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnkn
own%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVC
I6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEj
p%2FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0
>> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>> --> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2
Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137
511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknow
n%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6
Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4
BIv4%3D&reserved=0
>> - List Contribution Web Site -
>> Thank you for your generous support!
>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> --> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%
2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f940
8dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%
7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwi
LCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVm
XHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0
>>
>>
>>
>
Message 3
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
if youre looking for the exotic you could of course try the well proven
colombian 912 turbo...
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Fri, Nov 11, 2022, 06:34 Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
> My experience conversing with Edge=99s principal over the years, fw
iw, is
> that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered with so
me
> critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets his customers
> =9Cprove him wrong=9D. And some have (ex: cracked/failed weld
ed crank). Too few
> accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>
> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the engineering
> basics).
>
> Difficult to watch.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
> appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>
> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the retrofit
> work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it, and I would
> never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & was thinking about
> the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below about some of the US
> based big bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR does seem a litt
le
> high, combined with no detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a b
it
> risky. Edge performance don't play with the Rotax FI software, they suppl
y
> a fuel pressure reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are
> working harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited operational
> history, makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
> compromises flying in close formation.
>
> Cheers,
> Brian Phillips.
>
> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>
> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>
> Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially the Europa, as it is a
> very compact aircraft. If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
> forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG is
> going to be somewhere around the spinner. Now we move the battery back,
> run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as possible such a
s
> autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose. The weight just keeps
> going up. The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the equivalent Europa
> Classic even with the XS fuselage module and firewall forward. The 912
> 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitu
de
> or with a leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is
in
> the 120-130 knot range. The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.
The
> 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at
> the same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course. The
> mono is faster and lighter of course.
>
>
> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection. Customers moved the
> boost up to get more power but complained it burned more fuel. The only
> advantage was more power with less reliability. Fuel burn was basically
> the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did I gain? Slightly more
> power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and shallow
> climb was necessary to cool. BTU requirements are the same *for the same
> amount of power* at the same fuel air ratio and varies little with
> displacement. Aircraft engines run at constant RPMs like a marine engine
s,
> so a carb is just as good as fuel injection except for altitude performan
ce
> of a normally aspirated engine with no leaning. The Bing stops leaning
> after about 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine. So, an after
> market leaning system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to
> improve fuel efficiency of the 912/912S. The Rotax 914 is ideal for
> higher altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a high
er
> cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great
> airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as we all
> know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep it running li
ke
> new.
>
>
> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
> maintenance/oil changes. Overspeed of the engine is an issue many ignore
.
> The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped. Prop strikes are
> ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>
> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the valves,
> inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000 hours and the
> engine is good to 1500 hours. The cleanup of the valves restores
> compression to like new or better than new and is really a surprise when
a
> 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>
>
> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I do
> with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States some years
> ago. They do put out more power. But for how long? Over the years the
> stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last and last. Most
> of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200 hours. But we have
> many cowboys here in the States that just want more power but won't pay f
or
> it to get power *and reliability*. I was around for the first of these
> Big Bore mods. As Edge Performance has found out, the crank shaft, and
> many other formally robust Rotax parts are now under more stress and
> required "upgrade". This costs money. My hats off to them, as they have
> at least backed their engines. In their defense, some of our =9Cco
wboys=9D
> here in the States are running regular car fuel. This causes detonation
> for sure. I can=99t fix stupid!
>
>
> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more gas,
> gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection requirements, requir
e
> greater cooling mass, and of course add cost. An airplane is 20,000
> compromises flying in close formation. If you change one thing, you
> affect 20 others. Choose wisely.
>
>
> Example: Charts are scare still for the 915.
>
> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than the 91
4
> depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>
> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase of
> nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>
> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase it
> decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>
>
> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the trigear.
The
> mono is much better at still basically a square root curve. More
> horsepower doesn=99t give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>
>
> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant speed
> prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel burn and
> will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I
> can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise (typically 140-145
> for a trigear) or max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore require the
> same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of
> most of the issues with density altitude, it allows the Bing to work
> ideally from cruise to max continuous from the surface to service ceiling
> (which is well above 25,000 which is our human physiological limit withou
t
> cabin pressurization). We know how to maintain it, the TCU has been
> modified and I can setup, troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my
> laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle. I don
=99t
> have Windows 11 yet, but it should work also. Carbs are easy to balance,
> and the installation manual is easy to follow. Always follow the engine
> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall forward
> manual .
>
>
> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and does
> not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards. Extensive work is
> necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is
> unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a =9Cbuds
=9D system for the
> average owner to tell you what it=99s doing but the troubleshooting
manual is
> a bit sparce. Much study and patience is needed as the 915 goes through
> its teething issues. It runs lean on the ground like the 912iS and will
> overheat easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic systems means you
> the pilot lose control. Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and
> find economy only comes through lower power. They have found fuel burn
> is the same for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the i
S.
> The 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements. It is not like
> hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works. It is still like the
> 1980=99s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all wor
ks
> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and
> components taking up more space under the hood. The 915 is not quite a
> plug and play engine electrically either. Look at Sling and their
> learning curve. The 4 place needs 140-150 HP. The two place not so much
.
> Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>
>
> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light
> weight. It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload airplane.
> More weight makes the induced drag go up. The mono airframe was not
> designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at an empty weig
ht
> of 900 pounds. If you go above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets
> sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased. In the States, a 1000 mile
> per day range airplane is essential for getting around west of the
> Mississippi river. For my snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for
> the winter, they need that range also. Frankly, a bigger engine makes
> for shorter hops, less payload, and a longer day. More horsepower is
> not as important as more torque. Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it
> spin up faster.
>
>
> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed with
> stock components. Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight down. N
ot
> by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost on a very small
> airframe.
>
>
> Just my thoughts.
>
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Bud Yerly
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week
-
> 08/11/22
>
>
>
>
> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and s
ingle
> point of failure (FI).
>
> Cheers,
>
> PeteZ
>
>
> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >
>
> goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
>
> >
>
> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass
> is a concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Read this topic online here:
>
> >
>
> >
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums
.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%
7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7
C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjo
iV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Dmjfwqv
qQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ma
tronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f8644
29d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C6380367856
11267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTi
I6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2Ln
RkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0
>
> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums
.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%
7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7
CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn
0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2
FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0
>
> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.m
atronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C
84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CT
WFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%
3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv
4%3D&reserved=0
>
> - List Contribution Web Site -
>
> Thank you for your generous support!
>
> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>
> -->
> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatro
nics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac31
37511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnk
nown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJX
VCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHU
lH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0
>
>
Message 4
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few accumulated
hours to build reliable predictability. At least the big bore kit does
not need any changes to crank, which is essentially the same as the 914
with the same output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce
crank stresses.
I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I seem to
remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & delivery issues. I believe
the crank fillets are smaller on auto engines compared to A/C engines,
and with the 100% duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies
to the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K miles, no
problems, great engine.
William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember you used a
Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or do you actually add a
bit more boost in?
Cheers,
Brian Phillips.
On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote:
> My experience conversing with Edges principal over the years, fwiw,
> is that he is chock full of confidence, many good ideas but peppered
> with some critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and lets
> his customers prove him wrong. And some have (ex: cracked/failed
> welded crank). Too few accumulated hours to tease out all that pepper.
>
> Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even lacks the
> engineering basics).
>
> Difficult to watch.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>> On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out advice below, much
>> appreciated, your background knowledge never ceases to amaze me.
>>
>> You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of doing all the
>> retrofit work, along with the weight issues, its just not worth it,
>> and I would never finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, &
>> was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. Your comments below
>> about some of the US based big bore kits has got me thinking again.
>> 10.5:1 CR does seem a little high, combined with no detonation
>> detection feedback loop, does sound a bit risky. Edge performance
>> don't play with the Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure
>> reg that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s are working
>> harder, again an added risk. Add to that limited operational history,
>> makes the 914 look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000
>> compromises flying in close formation.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Brian Phillips.
>>
>> On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote:
>>>
>>> Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are learning fast:
>>>
>>> Weight is the enemy of an airplane.Especially the Europa, as it is a
>>> very compact aircraft.If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG
>>> forward, requires a prop extension and a constant speed prop, the CG
>>> is going to be somewhere around the spinner.Now we move the battery
>>> back, run longer heavier cables and as much more to the rear as
>>> possible such as autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the nose.
>>> The weight just keeps going up. The Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier
>>> than the equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS fuselage module
>>> and firewall forward.The 912 80 HP is not a spectacular performer
>>> but will give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a leaning device at
>>> altitudes up to about 10,000 feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot
>>> range.The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more.The 914 doubles
>>> the climb rate, ups cruise to at least 140-145 knot range at the
>>> same 25 ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft of course.The
>>> mono is faster and lighter of course.
>>>
>>> As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel injection.Customers moved
>>> the boost up to get more power but complained it burned more
>>> fuel.The only advantage was more power with less reliability.Fuel
>>> burn was basically the same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM.So, what did I
>>> gain?Slightly more power for climb but more heat to dissipate, a
>>> bigger radiator and shallow climb was necessary to cool.BTU
>>> requirements are the same *for the same amount of power* at the same
>>> fuel air ratio and varies little with displacement.Aircraft engines
>>> run at constant RPMs like a marine engines, so a carb is just as
>>> good as fuel injection except for altitude performance of a normally
>>> aspirated engine with no leaning.The Bing stops leaning after about
>>> 3500 feet in the normally aspirated engine.So, an after market
>>> leaning system is necessary for the high altitude flyers to improve
>>> fuel efficiency of the 912/912S.The Rotax 914 is ideal for higher
>>> altitude operations and frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher
>>> cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed the Europa into a great
>>> airplane. Reliability of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as
>>> we all know, there are techniques and inspections required to keep
>>> it running like new.
>>>
>>> Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 hours with only carb
>>> maintenance/oil changes.Overspeed of the engine is an issue many
>>> ignore.The valves can and do contact the piston if oversped.Prop
>>> strikes are ignored also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono.
>>>
>>> I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours (gearbox, clean up the
>>> valves, inspect the rings/cylinders) and press on.Repeat at 1000
>>> hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours.The cleanup of the valves
>>> restores compression to like new or better than new and is really a
>>> surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 blades of rotation.
>>>
>>> I have no experience with the latest Edge Performance engines, but I
>>> do with the so called "Big Bore" engines done here in the States
>>> some years ago.They do put out more power.But for how long?Over the
>>> years the stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new blocks) last
>>> and last.Most of the Big Bores were back in after as short as 200
>>> hours.But we have many cowboys here in the States that just want
>>> more power but won't pay for it to get power _and reliability_.I was
>>> around for the first of these Big Bore mods.As Edge Performance has
>>> found out, the crank shaft, and many other formally robust Rotax
>>> parts are now under more stress and required "upgrade".This costs
>>> money.My hats off to them, as they have at least backed their
>>> engines.In their defense, some of our cowboys here in the States
>>> are running regular car fuel. This causes detonation for sure. I
>>> cant fix stupid!
>>>
>>> If you need more power keep in mind in general you will need more
>>> gas, gain weight, reduce reliability, increase inspection
>>> requirements, require greater cooling mass, and of course add
>>> cost.An airplane is 20,000 compromises flying in close formation.If
>>> you change one thing, you affect 20 others.Choose wisely.
>>>
>>> Example:Charts are scare still for the 915.
>>>
>>> 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 HP (10-20 more than
>>> the 914 depending on MP and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH.
>>>
>>> A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a cruise speed increase
>>> of nearly 10-13 Kts above 10,000 feet which is better than most.
>>>
>>> However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per Gallon does not increase
>>> it decreases from about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG.
>>>
>>> The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a cube root for the
>>> trigear.The mono is much better at still basically a square root
>>> curve.More horsepower doesnt give me impressive efficiency or speed.
>>>
>>> The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will cool, accepts a constant
>>> speed prop without issue or added extensions, has a reasonable fuel
>>> burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in about 11-13 minutes in a
>>> cruise climb.I can put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for cruise
>>> (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or max speed.Both the 912S/iS and
>>> Big Bore require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no advantage.The
>>> 914 turbo takes care of most of the issues with density altitude, it
>>> allows the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max continuous from
>>> the surface to service ceiling (which is well above 25,000 which is
>>> our human physiological limit without cabin pressurization).We know
>>> how to maintain it, the TCU has been modified and I can setup,
>>> troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my laptop running
>>> Windows 7 through 10 without a special dongle.I dont have Windows
>>> 11 yet, but it should work also.Carbs are easy to balance, and the
>>> installation manual is easy to follow.Always follow the engine
>>> installation manual in conjunction with the airframe firewall
>>> forward manual .
>>>
>>> The 915 was never designed to fit a standard Rotax engine mount and
>>> does not fit most experimental aircraft firewall forwards.Extensive
>>> work is necessary to retrofit the 915 to a 912/914 airframe.The 915
>>> is unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change without a buds
>>> system for the average owner to tell you what its doing but the
>>> troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce.Much study and patience is
>>> needed as the 915 goes through its teething issues.It runs lean on
>>> the ground like the 912iS and will overheat easily during an
>>> extended taxi out.Automatic systems means you the pilot lose
>>> control.Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and find economy
>>> only comes through lower power.They have found fuel burn is the same
>>> for the same speed after an engine change from the S to the iS.The
>>> 915 has a similar issue with the power requirements.It is not like
>>> hopping into your BMW tubo and everything works.It is still like the
>>> 1980s first gen fuel injection and turbo mods.Today it all works
>>> flawlessly in our autos, but with larger cooling requirements and
>>> components taking up more space under the hood.The 915 is not quite
>>> a plug and play engine electrically either.Look at Sling and their
>>> learning curve.The 4 place needs 140-150 HP.The two place not so
>>> much.Guys are looking hard at the difference.
>>>
>>> In summary, the Europa was designed for about 100HP engines of light
>>> weight.It is fast and efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload
>>> airplane.More weight makes the induced drag go up.The mono airframe
>>> was not designed to go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet at
>>> an empty weight of 900 pounds.If you go above 900 pounds empty
>>> weight, the plane gets sluggish, speed drops and range is
>>> decreased.In the States, a 1000 mile per day range airplane is
>>> essential for getting around west of the Mississippi river. For my
>>> snow birds coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, they need
>>> that range also.Frankly, a bigger engine makes for shorter hops,
>>> less payload, and a longer day.More horsepower is not as important
>>> as more torque.Torque turns the prop, HP just makes it spin up faster.
>>>
>>> Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be a trouble-free steed
>>> with stock components.Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight
>>> down.Not by slapping more horsepower, weight, complexity, and cost
>>> on a very small airframe.
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Bud Yerly
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
>>> <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
>>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM
>>> To: europa-list@matronics.com
>>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this
>>> week - 08/11/22
>>>
>>> <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>>
>>>
>>> .except for the concerns of Edge welded cranks (cracking), and
>>> single point of failure (FI).
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> PeteZ
>>>
>>> > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com
>>> <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>>
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth looking at if forward mass is
a
>>> concern... the Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing
>>> reliability but i would still choose Edge over Jabiru
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > Read this topic online here:
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> >
>>>
>>> - The Europa-List Email Forum -
>>>
>>> -->
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>>>
>>> -->
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2FjBDQ%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>>>
>>> -->
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>> - List Contribution Web Site -
>>>
>>> Thank you for your generous support!
>>>
>>> -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>>>
>>> -->
>>> https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0
>>> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmatronics.com%2Fcontribution&data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=%2BJyIGhvIq4pT7mzs62M9oV5AvbuxUVmXHUlH%2FDEvC%2Bg%3D&reserved=0>
>>>
>>
Message 5
| INDEX | Back to Main INDEX |
| PREVIOUS | Skip to PREVIOUS Message |
| NEXT | Skip to NEXT Message |
| LIST | Reply to LIST Regarding this Message |
| SENDER | Reply to SENDER Regarding this Message |
|
| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 |
Agree with Pete regarding accumulated hours v's reliability; only time in the sky
will definitively answer that one.
What about UL Power? Has anybody user feedback on these? They seem like everything
a Jabiru is trying to be???
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508738#508738
Other Matronics Email List Services
These Email List Services are sponsored solely by Matronics and through the generous Contributions of its members.
-- Please support this service by making your Contribution today! --
|