Europa-List Digest Archive

Mon 11/14/22


Total Messages Posted: 6



Today's Message Index:
----------------------
 
     0. 12:51 AM - Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Coming Soon! (Matt Dralle)
     1. 12:05 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Brian Phillips)
     2. 12:46 AM - Thread length (BobD)
     3. 05:21 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Bud Yerly)
     4. 11:23 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Area-51)
     5. 11:35 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 (Area-51)
 
 
 


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    Time: 12:51:54 AM PST US
    From: Matt Dralle <dralle@matronics.com>
    Subject: Make Sure You're Listed! List of Contributors Coming Soon!
    Dear Listers, There's just a few more days left in this year's List Fund Raiser and that means the List of Contributors (LOC) is just around the corner! In December I post a list of everyone that so generously made a Contribution to support the Lists. Its my way of publicly thanking everyone that took a minute to show their appreciation for the Lists. Won't you take minute and assure that your name is on the upcoming LOC? Tell others that you appreciate the Lists. Making a Contribution to support the Lists is fast and easy using your Visa, MasterCard, or Paypal account: https://matronics.com/contribution Or, drop a personal check in the mail to: Matt Dralle / Matronics 581 Jeannie Way Livermore CA 94550 I would like to thank everyone that has so generously made a Contribution thus far during this year's List Fund Raiser! Remember that its YOUR support that keeps these Lists running and improving! Don't forget to include a little comment about how the Lists have helped you! Thank you! Matt Dralle Matronics Email List Administrator


    Message 1


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    Time: 12:05:31 AM PST US
    From: Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com>
    Subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22
    Bud, Thanks very much for your explanations below, a great read and very illuminating. I didn't realize you had done work with Jason Parker. Agree with everything you have said. The 914's running upward of 60" MP, effectively doubling their mas flow, I can't see how they would not ping, blow head gaskets and hole pistons, scary stuff. On your first line, you mention 2.27, i'm assuming a simple typo and meant 2.43. As the weight of the 914 is pretty much the same as the 912Is, and based on your numerous advice, a 914 is the go if I can put up with those silly carby things. I spent many years playing with Holleys, I thought I was over ever having to rebuild of fault find these things : ) Cheers Brian Phillips On 14/11/2022 5:17 am, Bud Yerly wrote: > > Let me try to shed some light here from experience.The cost to > performance issue has been around since airplanes became accepted as a > necessary part of higher speed transportation. > > First:Propellers fly on torque.The reason the 2.27 gearbox was better > for the Columbians was the wide chord Warp Blade requires too much > torque in comparison to the 914, hence the 912 (80HP) even with lower > normalized boost hasnt sufficient torque to pull a wide chord Warp at > full power.Had narrower chord blade been selected, fixed or constant > speed prop, these issues change a lot.Too many for this level of > discussion.At sea level manifold pressure with no losses the 80HP > Rotax cannot turn a fixed 64 inch Wide Chord WD prop set for a 5000 > RMP WOT much beyond about 5200 RPM.Takeoff suffers.Therefore, WD and > others have smaller diameter or narrow chord blades to match to the > 80HP Rotax.So, if I turbo normalize the 80 HP engine to 30 or even 35 > inches, the engine/prop combination becomes a compromise of > changes.Either the pitch has to be changed to decrease torque, the > boost and therefore mixtures, jetting, fuel grade, and gearbox ratio > has to be tweaked to make the engine runnable within the narrower > torque range of engine with a now smaller or narrower prop. > > Second:Looking at the cruise speed difference doesnt tell the whole > story but in fact it does.In high altitude operations, a turbo or > supercharging is essential to regain sea level performance or perhaps > a bit more. The back yard mechanics tweaked and tinkered to get a > truck turbo and custom hand built components and jetting to get around > the higher cost of the stock 914 due to rather onerous taxation in > Columbia or as I did, just tinkering.Turbo normalization, prop and > gearbox selection (but not optimization) led to a workable boost to > allow reasonable performance for takeoff, climb and some additional > cruise at altitude.However, without optimized waste gate control, you > loose efficiency and power in cruise to gain takeoff.So, a turbo > normalized 912 vs a 914 may only be 10 knots, but it is more than > that.If you desire to optimize takeoff, climb, and cruise, then a more > refined means of turbo waste gate control is necessary. That means a > computer, or at least a circuit card with a application.Will did a > great job of describing his build situation compromises in his last > email.For him, it was his choice of compromises.He knew what had > worked in Columbia to meet his basic requirements/compromises. > > Third:The Columbian conversion and the Italian chap (Vz Power) with > the bolt on turbo or even the Big Bore conversions are all > interesting experiments in getting around the Austrian overpriced > 914.After all, the TCU control of a wastegate is not rocket science > and a stock Garret turbo is only $500.But you have to look at the cost > to long term maintenance and parts availability issues also.In my > working with Jason Parker on a degraded Predator Drone engine, we put > a stock Garett Turbo, a waste gate dashpot and an SDS fuel injection > on a 2015 9XX Rotax stronger block (now stock on all Rotax > engines).Jason removed the cylinders/heads, installed forged pistons, > worked fuel mapping and boost control to get a very workable engine > for about $15000 less than a 914 and a lot less than a 915.However, > who got paid back for investing in all this work.Not I, as I didnt > ask for any, but Jason lost 3 years of his life (but was hired to a > lucrative position in defense) for all his work.About 25 engines were > modified and very quickly sold.Half of them however were tinkered with > by knowledgeable amateurs/experimenter and eventually blew up > cylinders and pistons when tweaked to 60 inches of MP for superb > takeoff and climb.When you modify an existing engine for more power, > you always trade off something. > > My hat is off to those attempting to improve the internal combustion > piston engine.Pratt and Whitney, Rolls Royce, and others developed > wonderfully complex hydromechanical control systems to increase engine > power and in some cases longevity and many other manufacturers > capitalized on that from the 1930s to the 50s until the demise of > the high powered piston aircraft engine.The internal combustion piston > engine was left as a necessary evil mired in inefficiency and > relegated to mass produced autos.But then, about 20 years ago > computer/digital systems became cheap and available.Toyotas TRD > division, Fords Racing, Mercedes and BMW as well as other motor > divisions have developed wonderfully powerful and more efficient > engines.Today modern electronic controls finally bring these dinosaur > piston engines into greater efficiency.Supercharging and > Turbo-super-charging can be electronically controlled with the fuel > injection to prevent untrained operators from blowing them up and > produced an automobile engine that is high powered and yet a reliable > daily use vehicle.However, more power means the more your inspection > and installation requirements go up, improved cooling, higher octane > fuel types and improved electronic sensoring to keep it all running > flawlessly.Luckily, we dont push our autos to the extreme we push our > aircraft engines.(Although I did leave a Porsche 4 seater in the dirt > with my 495 HP pickup truck from the stoplight a few months ago which > was great fun for a couple of old guys, but he will never forget to be > in sport mode again if he sees me..) > > In the many compromises we make in building an aircraft, never forget > that the engine and prop are the powerplant.The engine supplies torque > to the torque converter (propeller) and if you are smart, a variable > pitch propeller.This prop choice allows one to take every bit of power > the engine can produce for takeoff, and climb, then power down to 75% > and run a few thousand hours with the prop pulling full power out of > the available HP and Torque for cruise also.HP is the rate of work, > torque is the twisting force and the twisting force/RPM is what is > important for cruise.The 914 has reasonably optimized all these and > with a constant speed (or variable pitch (with higher pilot work > load)) prop is not only more efficient, but is mechanically more > reliable than a fixed or mechanically controlled wastegate.Is it > perfect, no, is it overpriced, yes, and am I frustrated with their > turbo rebuild fiasco of a repair program, absolutely (a turbo only > costs about $400 to rebuild and Rotax wants you to replace it for > $8000, that is just plain greedy).Do I like turbo normalization (30 > inches), yes, do I like more boost absolutely, but at what cost and > reliability? > > For me, Ill stick with my 914 because I can get parts, it is easy to > troubleshoot from the TCU to the carbs and frankly just plugs onto the > front of my Europa.Is it as nice an engine as the high tech 915, no > way, but the extra stuff on the 915 doesnt really suit my aircraft or > pocketbook.Performance wise, if I want to suck on oxygen and fly at > 17,500 MSL to get 160 Kts. Vs 143 at 10,000 feet ish, it is worth it > for me to stick to the 914 rather than upgrade and change everything > on the FWF to match a different engine, then rebalance the aircraft.My > drag curve goes much more vertical above 140 Knots and frankly, the > only advantage of the 915 is rate of climb (thats HP or rate of work) > but my top cruise increase is going to be less spectacular for all > that work, extra weight and fuel burn.Ah compromises! > > Choose wisely to meet your requirements.Everyone has a different > flying mission for their aircraft.The stock 912S (100HP) is a nice > option for the Europa for a lower altitude performer.The UL engine is > gaining popularity (Im still not completely sure why, as the > performance increases with most planes isnt showing up in cruise > performance, and prop performance to match at this time is being > worked out).It is a well engineered product though and impressive.But > is it as maintainable over time.Time will tell.Although Airmaster has > attacked that faster spinning UL issue in an attempt to match the > engine power/torque to a propeller, as of today, results are > encouraging.The faster spinning UL has only about the same torque as > the Rotax 9 series.The higher power meant more cooling issues, higher > octane fuel (100LL is best) and it appears that the engine cant be > lugged down to lower RPMs most likely due to detonation, hence the > faster spinning engine (pump) must be electronically leaned for > efficiency and hence cooling rears its ugly head.The UL 350 series > engine develops max torque (330nm or 230Ft/lbs.) at about 23-2400 RPM > which is 100 HP at sea level but at about 25L/Hr. or 6.6 GPH.Note the > fall off of torque as RPM increases.The gearbox makes a difference in > how hard you pull the RPM down vs using the fuel to prevent detonation > by running a bit richer.That is not a great leap over the 912iS or > even the 912S in cruise speed, at and the UL is at a higher fuel > burn.At altitude though the HP drops significantly an any normally > aspirated engine and on the 350iS and 912iS as the fuel burn goes down > to about 17L/Hr. or 4.5 GPH.Not bad and comparable to the Rotax 912iS > and 912S _with a HacMan leaning kit_. Since 2018, UL is continuing to > solve all these issues as they attempt to overcome the inefficiencies > of the dinosaur horizontally opposed air cooled engine issues in > aircraft through fuel mapping, compression ratio, and timing > controls.Good on them. Rotax was forced to catch up.And did they do it > well.Well, that remains to be seen. > > The 914 like the 912/912S fits the cowl FWF package without major > issue (you got to do the cooling work though). Extra power means extra > heat to dissipate.The UL teething issues are mostly from poor cowl > design or execution in my opinion which will take time and money to > iron out (why cowl flaps are not used by manufacturers I cannot > explain).Too bad as they really need an efficient cowl design for > cruise to get rid of the heat in cruise and cowl flaps in climb to > cool properly at low speed and high power.In my opinion, the airframe > manufacturers seem to be indifferent to higher power engines cooling > needs and settle for all but the most basic lower power engines > requirements (i.e. it costs them money and time and besides, the > actual money is in the stock airplane from a sales point of view). > > Research is 90% of your time in selecting an airframe and powerplant.I > prefer to go fly in a similarly equipped aircraft I am considering to > build, as I can copy or just assemble IAW the manual and achieve an > acceptable aircraft that will meet or exceed my expectations without > worry of reliability, longevity, or parts supply.As Ira Rampil told me > Better is the enemy of Good.One has to raise the issues of cost, > time, talent and services needed to go from good to better. > > Just my opinion and observations! > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > *From:*owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> *On Behalf Of *William Daniell > *Sent:* Sunday, November 13, 2022 8:42 AM > *To:* europa-list@matronics.com > *Subject:* Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this > week - 08/11/22 > > Yup - the original 2.27:1 wouldnt make the revs with the airmaster > even in Guaymaral at 8500. My previous plane a ICP Savannah with an > Ivo had no problem with the 2.27 gearbox. I had the ivo with the > narrow blades. The 914 gearbox is 2.43:1. > > Theres a lot of experience with this conversion in Colombia - they > even claim they turbo-ed the 912 before rotax. It could be true - > you never know with Colombia. But in any case I wasnt the pioneer. > Its a well understood process. The chap who did it for me turned > up all the required components with nicely welded stainless exhausts > etc installed them and fired up the motor. Worked ever since no > faffing about. > > In any case a 914 would have probably been the way to go but Im a > cheapskate.Or rather it would have cost me the price plus another > 15% import tax raising the price to almost USD40k. What with labor > and parts my current engine cost USD25k. > > You dont have to mess with the TCU and it retains the mechanical fuel > pump (you need an electric pump as well). The mech pump will just > about keep you flying at 22 MAP. > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2022 at 00:58 Brian Phillips <barp99@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for that Will. Clearly you know what you are doing as you > have been running it since 2006. Can I ask, why do you need to > change the gearbox ratio? > Once you installed the turbo system, did you have to adjust or > replace it to get it to absorb the power available at higher > altitudes? > > Cheers, > Brian Phillips. > > On 13/11/2022 12:33 am, William Daniell wrote: > > I use up to 36 although lots of people in Colombia go up to > 40. So yes pretty much the same boost as a 914. > > If you use a stock 912 you have to add the turbo system and > airbox exhaust etc as you would expect. And also the oil > system to feed the turbo none of which is unexpected. A > bigger main jet is normal. However the gochta is that you > need to change the gearbox ratio and I put in a slipper > clutch. All of this can actually be done in a day (the > exhaust and airbox are made beforehand.) > > I have a manual waste gate in this engine but in the previous > one I had a simple wastegate controller like a car > > I flown with this engine since 2006 never had an issue. > > The turbo is from a Renault diesel van - made by mitisubishi > > Nitrile gaskets on the carbs are necessary otherwise they suck > air at altitude. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2022 at 23:16 Brian Phillips > <barp99@gmail.com> wrote: > > Thanks for that Pete, good to know. As you say, too few > accumulated hours to build reliable predictability. At > least the big bore kit does not need any changes to crank, > which is essentially the same as the 914 with the same > output. The lighter than standard pistons may even reduce > crank stresses. > > I did look at the Viking options, I could be wrong but I > seem to remember belt drive issues, recessed valves & > delivery issues. I believe the crank fillets are smaller > on auto engines compared to A/C engines, and with the 100% > duty factor can cause cracks, not sure if this applies to > the suby though. I do have an EJ25 in my road car, 200K > miles, no problems, great engine. > > William, your Columbian turbo does interest me, I remember > you used a Mitsubishi turbo. Do you use it to normalize or > do you actually add a bit more boost in? > > Cheers, > > Brian Phillips. > > On 11/11/2022 10:30 pm, Pete wrote: > > My experience conversing with Edges principal over > the years, fwiw, is that he is chock full of > confidence, many good ideas but peppered with some > critical bad ones -which he will not acknowledge, and > lets his customers prove him wrong. And some have > (ex: cracked/failed welded crank). Too few accumulated > hours to tease out all that pepper. > > Same syndrome as Jan at viking (although Jan even > lacks the engineering basics). > > Difficult to watch. > > Cheers, > > PeteZ > > > On Nov 11, 2022, at 6:13 AM, Brian Phillips > <barp99@gmail.com> <mailto:barp99@gmail.com> wrote: > > Bud, thanks very much for your well laid out > advice below, much appreciated, your background > knowledge never ceases to amaze me. > > You have talked me out of the 915, the thought of > doing all the retrofit work, along with the weight > issues, its just not worth it, and I would never > finish it. I am still interested in the 912Is, & > was thinking about the Edge 1484cc big bore kit. > Your comments below about some of the US based big > bore kits has got me thinking again. 10.5:1 CR > does seem a little high, combined with no > detonation detection feedback loop, does sound a > bit risky. Edge performance don't play with the > Rotax FI software, they supply a fuel pressure reg > that increases the rail pressure, so the pump/s > are working harder, again an added risk. Add to > that limited operational history, makes the 914 > look an even better outcome. As you say, 20,000 > compromises flying in close formation. > > Cheers, > Brian Phillips. > > On 11/11/2022 4:34 am, Bud Yerly wrote: > > Pete, as you are most aware and Brian you are > learning fast: > > Weight is the enemy of an airplane. Especially > the Europa, as it is a very compact aircraft. > If I add 15 horsepower, but it moves the CG > forward, requires a prop extension and a > constant speed prop, the CG is going to be > somewhere around the spinner. Now we move the > battery back, run longer heavier cables and as > much more to the rear as possible such as > autopilots, ELTs, etc. to counterbalance the > nose. The weight just keeps going up. The > Europa XS is 100 pounds heavier than the > equivalent Europa Classic even with the XS > fuselage module and firewall forward. The 912 > 80 HP is not a spectacular performer but will > give 30 ANMPG at low altitude or with a > leaning device at altitudes up to about 10,000 > feet. Cruise is in the 120-130 knot range. > The 912S raised the cruise about 5 knots more. > The 914 doubles the climb rate, ups cruise to > at least 140-145 knot range at the same 25 > ANMPG as the 912S on a tricycle gear aircraft > of course. The mono is faster and lighter of > course. > > As I learned on modifying the 914 to fuel > injection. Customers moved the boost up to > get more power but complained it burned more > fuel. The only advantage was more power with > less reliability. Fuel burn was basically the > same at 31 inches and 5000 RPM. So, what did > I gain? Slightly more power for climb but > more heat to dissipate, a bigger radiator and > shallow climb was necessary to cool. BTU > requirements are the same *for the same amount > of power* at the same fuel air ratio and > varies little with displacement. Aircraft > engines run at constant RPMs like a marine > engines, so a carb is just as good as fuel > injection except for altitude performance of a > normally aspirated engine with no leaning. > The Bing stops leaning after about 3500 feet > in the normally aspirated engine. So, an > after market leaning system is necessary for > the high altitude flyers to improve fuel > efficiency of the 912/912S. The Rotax 914 is > ideal for higher altitude operations and > frankly ideal for the Europa but at a higher > cost. I believe the 914 totally transformed > the Europa into a great airplane. Reliability > of the 914 is now as good as the 912S but as > we all know, there are techniques and > inspections required to keep it running like new. > > Normally a 912 through the 914 will go 1000 > hours with only carb maintenance/oil changes. > Overspeed of the engine is an issue many > ignore. The valves can and do contact the > piston if oversped. Prop strikes are ignored > also by many STOL operators and taildragger/mono. > > I do a top overhaul at about 500-600 hours > (gearbox, clean up the valves, inspect the > rings/cylinders) and press on. Repeat at 1000 > hours and the engine is good to 1500 hours. > The cleanup of the valves restores compression > to like new or better than new and is really a > surprise when a 914 burps after only about 5 > blades of rotation. > > I have no experience with the latest Edge > Performance engines, but I do with the so > called "Big Bore" engines done here in the > States some years ago. They do put out more > power. But for how long? Over the years the > stock Rotax 100 HP 912S (especially the new > blocks) last and last. Most of the Big Bores > were back in after as short as 200 hours. But > we have many cowboys here in the States that > just want more power but won't pay for it to > get power _and reliability_. I was around for > the first of these Big Bore mods. As Edge > Performance has found out, the crank shaft, > and many other formally robust Rotax parts are > now under more stress and required "upgrade". > This costs money. My hats off to them, as > they have at least backed their engines. In > their defense, some of our cowboys here in > the States are running regular car fuel. This > causes detonation for sure. I cant fix stupid! > > If you need more power keep in mind in general > you will need more gas, gain weight, reduce > reliability, increase inspection requirements, > require greater cooling mass, and of course > add cost. An airplane is 20,000 compromises > flying in close formation. If you change one > thing, you affect 20 others. Choose wisely. > > Example: Charts are scare still for the 915. > > 5000 RPM wide open throttle 87 KW or about 115 > HP (10-20 more than the 914 depending on MP > and TCU.) Fuel flow 27 L/hr or 7.1GPH. > > A 20 HP increase on N12AY (Trigear) yields a > cruise speed increase of nearly 10-13 Kts > above 10,000 feet which is better than most. > > However, the range in Air Nautical Mile per > Gallon does not increase it decreases from > about 25 ANMPG to 20 ANMPG. > > The Europa drag goes up beyond 140 Knots by a > cube root for the trigear. The mono is much > better at still basically a square root > curve. More horsepower doesnt give me > impressive efficiency or speed. > > The 914 fits easily in the Europa XS, will > cool, accepts a constant speed prop without > issue or added extensions, has a reasonable > fuel burn and will get you to 10,000 feet in > about 11-13 minutes in a cruise climb. I can > put out 70 to 95 horsepower continuous for > cruise (typically 140-145 for a trigear) or > max speed. Both the 912S/iS and Big Bore > require the same octane fuel as the 914 so no > advantage. The 914 turbo takes care of most of > the issues with density altitude, it allows > the Bing to work ideally from cruise to max > continuous from the surface to service ceiling > (which is well above 25,000 which is our human > physiological limit without cabin > pressurization). We know how to maintain it, > the TCU has been modified and I can setup, > troubleshoot or simply run a data dump from my > laptop running Windows 7 through 10 without a > special dongle. I dont have Windows 11 yet, > but it should work also. Carbs are easy to > balance, and the installation manual is easy > to follow. Always follow the engine > installation manual in conjunction with the > airframe firewall forward manual . > > The 915 was never designed to fit a standard > Rotax engine mount and does not fit most > experimental aircraft firewall forwards. > Extensive work is necessary to retrofit the > 915 to a 912/914 airframe. The 915 is > unmaintainable but for plugs and oil change > without a buds system for the average owner > to tell you what its doing but the > troubleshooting manual is a bit sparce. Much > study and patience is needed as the 915 goes > through its teething issues. It runs lean on > the ground like the 912iS and will overheat > easily during an extended taxi out. Automatic > systems means you the pilot lose control. > Many 912iS owners hate the power drop off and > find economy only comes through lower power. > They have found fuel burn is the same for the > same speed after an engine change from the S > to the iS. The 915 has a similar issue with > the power requirements. It is not like > hopping into your BMW tubo and everything > works. It is still like the 1980s first gen > fuel injection and turbo mods. Today it all > works flawlessly in our autos, but with larger > cooling requirements and components taking up > more space under the hood. The 915 is not > quite a plug and play engine electrically > either. Look at Sling and their learning > curve. The 4 place needs 140-150 HP. The two > place not so much. Guys are looking hard at > the difference. > > In summary, the Europa was designed for about > 100HP engines of light weight. It is fast and > efficient for a 100HP 500 pound payload > airplane. More weight makes the induced drag > go up. The mono airframe was not designed to > go faster than about 170 KTAS at 20,000 feet > at an empty weight of 900 pounds. If you go > above 900 pounds empty weight, the plane gets > sluggish, speed drops and range is decreased. > In the States, a 1000 mile per day range > airplane is essential for getting around west > of the Mississippi river. For my snow birds > coming from Canada to Florida for the winter, > they need that range also. Frankly, a bigger > engine makes for shorter hops, less payload, > and a longer day. More horsepower is not as > important as more torque. Torque turns the > prop, HP just makes it spin up faster. > > Keep it light, keep it simple, and it will be > a trouble-free steed with stock components. > Work on drag reduction and keeping the weight > down. Not by slapping more horsepower, > weight, complexity, and cost on a very small > airframe. > > Just my thoughts. > > Best Regards, > > Bud Yerly > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com > <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> > <mailto:owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> > On Behalf Of Pete > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2022 6:59 AM > To: europa-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do > with your Europa this week - 08/11/22 > > <peterz@zutrasoft.com > <mailto:peterz@zutrasoft.com>> > > .except for the concerns of Edge welded > cranks (cracking), and single point of failure > (FI). > > Cheers, > > PeteZ > > > On Nov 10, 2022, at 1:58 AM, Area-51 > <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com > <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> wrote: > > > > > <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com > <mailto:goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>> > > > > > > Brian the Edge Performance engines are worth > looking at if forward mass is a concern... the > Gen4 6cyl Jabiru is said to finally be showing > reliability but i would still choose Edge over > Jabiru > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Read this topic online here: > > > > > > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=DmjfwqvqQBLFoORotf%2FyaLw%2FmFIOZbrmrQPIcMlLUf4%3D&amp;reserved=0 <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D508643%23508643&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1c66837585c94c66deb708dac57d77d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638039439947308794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=S63Iw%2FyNFWgDsWtPKnRxzwdXvOpu3Br48y58NMCnpok%3D&reserved=0> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > - The Europa-List Email Forum - > > --> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=wm%2FStj0pmmpyz3Mig2LnRkBfFdsMx6SLnhjzkK37%2Bc0%3D&amp;reserved=0 > <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.matronics.com%2FNavigator%3FEuropa-List&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1c66837585c94c66deb708dac57d77d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638039439947308794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=K%2Falv%2FkcTBjljLCyZizZylnFxQ5jQytrZQsEIOoSpkM%3D&reserved=0> > > - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS - > > --> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=ycdDH2pLsucuLwZ1D%2BRcZsnydcBK5AXdQ6ZEjp%2FjBDQ%3D&amp;reserved=0 > <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1c66837585c94c66deb708dac57d77d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638039439947308794%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=5r4N%2BfXlSOt3aoS7AWmn1cEOBxrVvkicOn3qYhAsLNg%3D&reserved=0> > > - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI - > > --> > https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&amp;data=05%7C01%7C%7C95fbe6d1f864429d6f9408dac3137511%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638036785611267994%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=H82eUxCpMT3FC%2B47WY13DthUPxRlKcO8Slvw4b4BIv4%3D&amp;reserved=0 > <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwiki.matronics.com%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C1c66837585c94c66deb708dac57d77d8%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638039439947465008%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Kn1kXJstBhQnc1KT8%2FeuK2%2Bzw7%2BhkGudzwHEq%2BPUbG0%3D&reserved=0> > > - List Contribution Web Site - > > Thank you for your generous support! 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    Message 2


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    Time: 12:46:58 AM PST US
    Subject: Thread length
    From: "BobD" <rjdawson14@gmail.com>
    Can I respectfully remind everyone of the following from the posting Guidelines : "- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive can not be overstated!" When a response to a thread of more than 1 or 2 replies has them quoted in full, for those of us who follow the daily digest on our phone, it makes for difficult reading. TIA -------- Bob Dawson Europa XS TG || 912 ULS || G-NHRJ || Dynon Skyview || PilotAware || SmartAss3 Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508751#508751


    Message 3


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    Time: 05:21:24 AM PST US
    From: Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com>
    Subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22
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    Message 4


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    Time: 11:23:40 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22
    From: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
    That's so true; Joe Dougnuts is always ready to screw up a well balanced set of carbi's... Lost count of how many times customers would come back with their SU and Stromberg setups complaining the engine is running rough again... so first thing i would always ask is "who messed with the mixtures?", Joe Doughnuts was always reliably the last person to "tune up" the engine... Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508830#508830


    Message 5


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    Time: 11:35:31 AM PST US
    Subject: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week - 08/11/22
    From: "Area-51" <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
    More flight time in the digital tube... door frames are finally done and installed; starting to look like a finished aircraft... Doors should be a fairly fast process now with all the root surfaces having been drafted... enough data to run some aero analysis on a twin departed door scenario. Read this topic online here: http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=508831#508831




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