Today's Message Index:
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1. 02:39 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (D McFadyean)
2. 04:40 AM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
3. 01:26 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (rparigoris)
4. 01:49 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
5. 02:09 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (rparigoris)
6. 02:39 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
7. 02:42 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
8. 03:41 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
9. 04:02 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
10. 04:49 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
11. 05:06 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
12. 05:19 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
13. 05:44 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
14. 09:15 PM - Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download (Area-51)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
"Tuning For Speed"
That was my second year (age 12 at high school) book prize (in the days that we
had "Speech Days" and prize-givings, when we were allowed to be recognised as
not being ordinary)!
Duncan mcF
do not archive
> On 26 December 2022 at 04:06 Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Totally agree with the article... give me 12 or 36 cylinders any day of the week...
and this article is exactly why engine rpm frequency is mentioned in my
above commentary.
>
> In simple terms the enlightened engine operator is looking for the rpm load setting
factor that offsets these cylinder firing pulses against the combined resistance
load (torque requested) and centrifugal momentum inertia of all internal
moving components whether 1 or 36 cylinder format... there may generally
be three or even four rpm points where this will occur for each individual engine
and these points are fugitive based upon the changeable factors of fuel, air,
temperature, and mechanical clearances between moving components. This why
the enlightened engine operator is able to quickly discern an out-of-tune state
on a perfectly turned and balanced engine.
>
> This is why, from experience and understanding, extended running of the engine
at 4800rpm, 3800rpm, 1600rpm, 800rpm is not any concern for me. These are the
harmonic frequencies of this individual engine for its set tuned state and minimal
stressed points. If the engine is not singing the above factors are not
synchronised; things will simply wear out sooner...
>
> If i want to set the above engine for 5200rpm then it will need further bench
work on the breathing because at 5200rpm it aint singing at all.
>
> A good place to start for anybody wanting to understand the totality of internal
combustion engines is "Tuning For Speed" - Phil Irving, anybody that says
they know stuff doesnt really know stuff unless they know this book cover to cover.
Its one of my loaded questions when sourcing a suitable engine builder that
i have no prior experience dealing with.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509790#509790
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Awesome!!
Unfortunately i was not lucky enough to know whether i ever did meet him personally...
i know of a few people that did though. He was a very unique person...
while i was playing with vintage race bikes Marc told me a story about an outing
with his Vincent. Phil Irving walked up to Marc's pristine example unannounced,
"what a lovely looking bike", then spun the brake and clutch lever around
on the handlebars to Marc's horror... "WTF" from Marc's mouth is a polite description...
Phil didn't care. He just turned to Marc and said "that's why the
handlebars are painted and not chromed"... long story short an apology was quickly
present when he learned he was about to smack Irving in the head; Marc
shut up and learned a lot; they became good friends...
Les was a very unassuming humble guy... inside his shed though were the rarest
of rare ferrari, and other stuff. they were sent to him from all over the world
to restore.. Phil taught Les how to build ferrari engines to run really well...
I would take Les a bag of fresh hand picked oranges each winter and we would
talk about engines and suspension.
My father handed down a first edition copy to me; i still have it... to this day
i have not yet come across a book that transcends Irving's bible.
Phil had the ability to explain something in just a couple of sentences when everyone
else delivered a lecture or novel that was lost in the wind.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509797#509797
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Hi Area 51
2 Questions below:
I'm having a bit of a hard time following your thinking?:
"I am at a total loss as to why rotax have employed a slip dog coupling in the
912 gearbox without torque pulse damper springs"
I'm not too familiar to the set up without slipper clutch, but with the slipper
clutch you in fact have a torque pulse damper spring in the form of Belville
washers. When cylinder fires, it "winds up the spring" In reality it is not winding
up, it is flattening the Belville washer that is in fact a spring which
absorbs some power. Then when no cylinder is not firing, the spring unwinds and
puts some power back to the prop shaft.
1) Please explain how you would better make a torque pulse damper? I'm pretty certain
if all that would be needed is a compression spring plate as is often seen
in an automotive clutch that Rotax would have used that instead of a high
parts count dog solution. A propeller spinning is a pretty darn good gyroscope,
it really doesn't want to accelerate or deaccelerate.
As far as operating at 3,800RPM, I have been interested in the loitering power
setting. I have asked several folks in the know and all thought it is not an issue
for the gearbox. That said it is an issue if you are running on 100LL as
even with TCP or Alcor, you are not making enough power to get rid of the as much
lead as compared to pushing more BTUs through the engine. On Mogas or no lead
think things will be fine.
2) Rotax want's oil temperature to get to boiling during flight. I thyink at sender
190F will give hot oil 212F. I'm pretty sure loitering flight will not allow
oil temp to get to 212. My question is why do you need to get to 212F during
flight? The real reason I ask is on most of my cars rarely do I see 212F and
haven't ever seen anything happen because of it.
Thx.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509798#509798
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
The washers are there to preload the slipper clutch.
Go read the book...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509799#509799
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Hi Area 51
I just had a look at the 912 with out slipper clutch and it too has Belville washers.
Yes it's true that you preload the Belville washers with slipper clutch, but I
think you are missing the fact that they are also the torque pulse damper springs.
The reason you need to preload the Belville washers with the slipper clutch
is they are also used to keep the slipper clutch from slipping.
Have a look at the parts manual and look at the non slipper clutch gearbox and
low and behold they have a set of Belville washers.
Ron P.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509800#509800
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Uh, actually, no. The slipper clutch is set by screwing the clutch assembly tight,
and is much higher breakaway torque than the dogs.
The main Bellevilles set the friction in the dog, as set by the shims and measured
using the crank lock and 20ft-lb minimum prop rotation friction test (on the
flats).
As for the low rpm running, the dogs get pocketed and worn when the underloaded
prop mass resonates with the engines reverse torque pulses. Once in resonance
the positive feedback drives the system (like aero flutter of control surfaces).
Best way to avoid any resonance and messing up the dogs is to avoid the resonant
frequencies (dependent upon prop rotating inertia), and loading up the prop
with power.
Fwiw,
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 4:55 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> The washers are there to preload the slipper clutch.
>
> Go read the book...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509799#509799
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Fwiw, I was told by the rotax folks that the slipper clutch was added to avoid
spline damage during start-up/shut-down with heavy (high rotational mass) propellors.
(Not prop strikes as commonly thought)
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 4:33 PM, rparigoris <rparigor@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Area 51
> 2 Questions below:
> I'm having a bit of a hard time following your thinking?:
> "I am at a total loss as to why rotax have employed a slip dog coupling in the
912 gearbox without torque pulse damper springs"
> I'm not too familiar to the set up without slipper clutch, but with the slipper
clutch you in fact have a torque pulse damper spring in the form of Belville
washers. When cylinder fires, it "winds up the spring" In reality it is not
winding up, it is flattening the Belville washer that is in fact a spring which
absorbs some power. Then when no cylinder is not firing, the spring unwinds
and puts some power back to the prop shaft.
>
> 1) Please explain how you would better make a torque pulse damper? I'm pretty
certain if all that would be needed is a compression spring plate as is often
seen in an automotive clutch that Rotax would have used that instead of a high
parts count dog solution. A propeller spinning is a pretty darn good gyroscope,
it really doesn't want to accelerate or deaccelerate.
>
>
> As far as operating at 3,800RPM, I have been interested in the loitering power
setting. I have asked several folks in the know and all thought it is not an
issue for the gearbox. That said it is an issue if you are running on 100LL as
even with TCP or Alcor, you are not making enough power to get rid of the as
much lead as compared to pushing more BTUs through the engine. On Mogas or no
lead think things will be fine.
>
> 2) Rotax want's oil temperature to get to boiling during flight. I thyink at
sender 190F will give hot oil 212F. I'm pretty sure loitering flight will not
allow oil temp to get to 212. My question is why do you need to get to 212F during
flight? The real reason I ask is on most of my cars rarely do I see 212F
and haven't ever seen anything happen because of it.
> Thx.
> Ron P.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509798#509798
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Which spring set are we talking about here? set 3 or 4? image attached...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509803#509803
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/c657a9f9_fcec_472e_af43_bcddb3aedfb4_150.jpeg
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Set 3 is for the dogs to set the (resonance damping) friction and to define the
ramp torque and is in-play in flight. Set 4 is for the overload clutch to set
its breakaway torque and never comes into play in flight, but rather only when
the dogs have hit their compression stops to save the splines from deformation
(which can occur with heavy props at start and stop or kickback).
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 6:47 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Which spring set are we talking about here? set 3 or 4? image attached...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509803#509803
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/c657a9f9_fcec_472e_af43_bcddb3aedfb4_150.jpeg
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wear out
at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail just like
in a mercedes transmission...
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Always trying to tame the 4bangars resonance issues, rotax have changed to a torsion
bar concept in the new 915.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 7:55 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wear out
at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail just
like in a mercedes transmission...
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
The new 915 box uses two clutch packs and the the torsion shaft instead of t
he expensive (2200USD) dog gear assembly. Thanks to certification sadly we
=99ll never see this new solution applied to the 912S.
https://www.rotax-owner.com/manuals/MMH_915i_A_Series_ED0_R0.pdf
> On Dec 26, 2022, at 8:06 PM, Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com> wrote:
>
> =EF=BBAlways trying to tame the 4bangars resonance issues, rotax have c
hanged to a torsion bar concept in the new 915.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>> On Dec 26, 2022, at 7:55 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrot
e:
>>
l@gmail.com>
>>
>> Yes that makes sense of the madness employed... And yes the dogs will wea
r out at some stage one way or the other; or cone spring will crack and fail
just like in a mercedes transmission... =F0=9F=91=8D =F0=9F=A4=A9
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Read this topic online here:
>>
>> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509805#509805
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
So does a $35 donut...
I like donuts
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509808#509808
Message 14
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| Subject: | Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download |
https://pdfcoffee.com/tuning-for-speed-p-e-irving-1965-tuning-racing-motorcycle-engines-2-pdf-free.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509809#509809
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