Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:19 AM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (JohnFrance)
2. 06:46 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (James)
3. 06:54 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
4. 06:57 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
5. 11:57 AM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
6. 01:06 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
7. 01:25 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (James)
8. 02:12 PM - Re: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download ()
9. 03:36 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
10. 03:43 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (James)
11. 04:01 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
12. 06:41 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (budyerly@msn.com)
13. 07:25 PM - Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Area-51)
14. 07:30 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 (Pete)
15. 10:11 PM - AW: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download ()
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine.
When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled
the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didnt use them in the gearbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue To
p Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top mod
el which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
James
Sent from Outlook for Android<https://aka.ms/AAb9ysg>
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/1
2/22
I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel
engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing to
talled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn=99t use them in the g
earbox.
A very interesting thread this one all the same.
--------
Europa mono Nr 192
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Indeed, once resonance does take hold, the energy which must be dissipated quickly
destroys rubber donuts. This is the reason that rotax only got away with them
on two strokes which have trivial reverse torque pulses. Automotive applications
are a different paradigm altogether as the ground presents an infinite
damping load reducing the frequencies involved vs a free air propellor although
the analogue does still exist: the situation when a student manual transmission
driver pops the clutch at idle and the car lurches back and forth with increasing
amplitude until it either stalls (a good thing) or something breaks.
In aircraft applications, the lightly loaded and under damped (in air) propellor
mass can quickly increase the positive feedback resonance amplitude and thus
power in the system until things break or the mechanical wear (dogs for example)
becomes destructive (creating exasperating dog-pockets for example). All at
low power input settings by definition. Give full power and the air provides
sufficient damping load to avoid positive feedback resonance - and why this phenomenon
is not seen in marine drives (water is a terrific damping medium). The
very efficient slippery europa design feeds into this problem vs those draggy
bush plane applications.
Auto conversions with simplistic rubber dampers (read: viking) are inadequate imhoand
time will tell as fleet time builds. The sprague solution in the yamaha/teal
world are already seeing excessive low time field failures - as predicted
by that website i had quoted.
Fwiw,
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 8:27 AM, JohnFrance <77alembert@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
> I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diesel engine.
When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing totalled
the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didnt use them in the gearbox.
> A very interesting thread this one all the same.
>
> --------
> Europa mono Nr 192
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Indeed 2strokes are much more benign wrt reverse torque pulses vs the hellis
h 4cyl 4stroke, on which =9Caircraft gearboxes are hard=9D. :)
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 9:53 AM, James <james@kingdom.ie> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> I have a Mainair Blade microlight (ultralight) Ireland which uses a Blue T
op Rotax 582 manufactured in 2002. It has a Doughnut as did the Grey Top mod
el which saved my gearbox & engine during a prop strike in 2006!
>
> James
>
>
> Sent from Outlook for Android
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat
ronics.com> on behalf of JohnFrance <77alembert@gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 1:19:12 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/
12/22
>
>
> I agree about the donuts, my triumph GT6 Mk2 had them on the drive shafts.
> I also know someone who used them on his ultralight which used a car diese
l engine. When it failed he lost drive to the prop and the forced landing to
talled the aircraft. That may be why Rotax didn=C3=A2=82=AC=84=A2t use
them in the gearbox.
> A very interesting thread this one all the same.
>
> --------
> Europa mono Nr 192
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509810#509810
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ==========
> st Email Forum -
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they break
and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft
not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will try
out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
.And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep the revs out of
the resonance bands.
:-)
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when they
break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an aircraft
not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which i will
try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>
> The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download |
When clicking on the link it takes one to tuning for motorcycle engines.
Having deleted the prior emails, I don't remember whether the book
previously discussed was aimed at motorcycles. Can anyone remind me whether
this is the same book?
Thanks in advance.
----------------
All the best,
Al Fuller
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Area-51
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download
--> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
https://pdfcoffee.com/tuning-for-speed-p-e-irving-1965-tuning-racing-motorcy
cle-engines-2-pdf-free.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509809#509809
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Sorry i don=99t. But i can tell you that my heavy fixed pitch warpdriv
e beat up my box below 5200.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 4:31 PM, James <james@kingdom.ie> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Pete,
> My 914 swings an Airmaster CS prop. Do you know what rpm setting(s) I shou
ld avoid?
>
> Thanks
> James
>
> Sent from Outlook for Android
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat
ronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:06:08 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week -
22/12/22
>
>
> .And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep t
he revs out of the resonance bands.
>
> :-)
>
> PeteZ
>
> > On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wro
te:
> >
al@gmail.com>
> >
> > Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when t
hey break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an a
ircraft not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant which
i will try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
> >
> > The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly =F0=9F
=98=8A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Read this topic online here:
> >
> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
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Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
I used the PB40 dynamic balancer from SmartAvionics, and its Y channel accel
erometer (in the rotational axis, as opposed to the primary x-axis used for b
alancing) and observed the live spectral output looking for a peaking in the
engine rpm frequency range.
Cheers!
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 6:50 PM, James <james@kingdom.ie> wrote:
>
> =EF=BB
> Is there any way to find out Pete?
>
> James
>
> Sent from Outlook for Android
> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@mat
ronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 11:36:13 PM
> To: europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week -
22/12/22
>
> Sorry i don=99t. But i can tell you that my heavy fixed pitch warpdr
ive beat up my box below 5200.
>
> Cheers,
> PeteZ
>
>>> On Dec 27, 2022, at 4:31 PM, James <james@kingdom.ie> wrote:
>>>
>> =EF=BB
>> Pete,
>> My 914 swings an Airmaster CS prop. Do you know what rpm setting(s) I sho
uld avoid?
>>
>> Thanks
>> James
>>
>> Sent from Outlook for Android
>> From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@ma
tronics.com> on behalf of Pete <peterz@zutrasoft.com>
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2022 9:06:08 PM
>> To: europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
>> Subject: Re: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your europa this week -
22/12/22
>>
>>
>> .And/or use an extremely light prop like the e-prop CS, and keep
the revs out of the resonance bands.
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> PeteZ
>>
>> > On Dec 27, 2022, at 3:04 PM, Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wr
ote:
>> >
ial@gmail.com>
>> >
>> > Thanks Peter great explanation there; and yes donuts are great but when
they break and when they do everything shakes to pieces real fast. So in an
aircraft not a great idea for prop drive; it would require some variant whi
ch i will try out when a dead gearbox gets donated.
>> >
>> > The ultimate solution to this rotax component wear issue is not fly =F0
=9F=98=8A
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Read this topic online here:
>> >
>> > http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509817#509817
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>> =========================
=========
>> t Email Forum -
>> a-List">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List
>> =========================
=========
>> ; - MATRONICS WEB FORUMS -
>> ms.matronics.com
>> =========================
=========
>> ; - NEW MATRONICS LIST WIKI -
>> atronics.com
>> =========================
=========
>> ; - List Contribution Web Site -
>> ; -Matt Dralle, List Admin.
>> s://matronics.com/contribution
>> =========================
=========
>>
>>
>>
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Pete, James and everyone else on our Matronics list,
The pdf is attached showing some charts from the Rotax manual.
Short Answer:
Personally, we are getting worked up over nothing here for most of the Europa owners
and it may bring up concern that the well maintained engine/prop combo are
causing harmonic issues. We know it is not an issue for most of us. For those
who wish to rebuild their engine, modify existing engines, produce or use
auto converted engines, these are informational and thought-provoking conversations
on gearboxes and engines. Lets face it, Eggenfeller is still modifying
his gearboxes on all his engines (Honda and others). But for an established
aircraft with aviation engine/props that dealers recommend, these conversations
are not productive except with your feet up and having a beer.
I agree, that geared engines do have harmonic issues if operated outside the prescribed
and tested manufacturers limitations. Where are those limits? In the
operators manual. Fly within the prop curve limits and the Rotax 9 series with
any reputable prop will perform properly. If an engine manufacturer has no
performance limitations, stay away from that engine as testing is incomplete.
There are no issues with flying the Airmaster, Whirlwind, MT, Hoffman, Woodcomp
(properly maintained), on the Rotax 9 series engines. Fixed pitch props made
by reputable companies (the non flexible kind) have no issues either (fixed pitch
Warp Drive, Whirlwind, Sensenich, Woodcomp have no issues, but Kiev and some
other thin flexible props are potentially a longevity problem.) Unlike the
long stroke, over bored Lycoming 0-360/390 these engines have bore, stroke,
and compression issues which do in fact cause unfavorable harmonics so some combinations
of particular props and engine dash numbers to have restricted operation
envelopes. The Rotax does not. Rotax does have recommended RPM/MP settings
for various power settings and charts giving adequate information on operating
envelopes.
Long answer for those bored or snowbound:
As for Rotax operational limits:
Most Europa Owners fly with the Airmaster Constant Speed propeller on the 914 and
frankly from 4000 to 5800 RPM there are no issues from 20-40 inches of manifold
pressure at a constant airspeed. In other words, there are no engine/gearbox/prop
harmonic problems which will occur but you can lug the engine down and
cause issues. Go back in the archives and look at our conversations on engine
vibration. If you have vibration, follow those techniques to repair your
prop balance, suspension or carb issues. I have found that the properly carb
balanced Rotax engine with a properly static balanced prop and then a proper dynamic
balance is all we need to have a smooth running Rotax. Many get by with
a simple static balance but a dynamic balance is always a good idea.
In flight using a portable dynamic balancer (such as a Dynavibe) has been used
in flight and found to be a better balance as the Europa bounces around quite
a bit on a ground run making the dynamic balance results rather chaotic. Many
times, I have had to limit the RPM in the ground dynamic balance to 4000 RPM
to make it flyable.
Back to power and RPM settings.
>From your Rotax Operators Manual:
For the 914:
For the 912S:
My Notes:
Who flies at only those power settings. Most of us, but not always.
You can fly a Rotax 9 series at any power setting and RPM up to 5500 (remember
the 5 minute limit above 5500) at virtually any throttle/MP setting but listen
to the engine for clues on how you are operating.
Downwind airspeed is 4000 RPM and 20-24 inches depending on aircraft weight trigear
or mono.
Trigear is higher than a clean mono. That is about 25-30 Horsepower. Note in
stabilized flight the prop is loaded so the gearbox does not clatter because the
prop is pulling. You can loiter forever.
In flight where are the gearbox rattle areas?
Any throttle settings (power) that allow the prop to unload to where the prop begins
to windmill.
Also, any power setting or throttle above that prop line RPM in the operations
charts as you are lugging the engine, in other words the prop is demanding more
power due to excessive pitch for the manifold pressure (throttle setting) you
have set.
First: Pull your headphones off or turn off the ANR and listen to the engine and
prop. Pete and Area 51 and many others know what I mean. Frankly everyone
should listen to their airplane, it will talk to you. If you descend rapidly
with no regard to the sound of the engine you are doing it wrong. At 140-160
KTS with about throttle, even with a constant speed prop, the prop is being
turned by the airspeed windmilling the prop (RPM increases as speed increases
and decreases as speed is reduced is your visual clue) and once you begin to slow
down, you will hit an area where the forward speed puts the prop at zero thrust,
where the prop cant decide whether it is windmilling or pulling. A vibration
or clatter is heard or felt. The noise of the prop changes also. Get
out of that range by pulling off more throttle or adding power and pulling the
nose up to slow down. This action of pulling off the power more to force the
prop out of the windmilling speed, or reducing the speed and keeping the power
up enough to keep the prop pulling is common to most aircraft, even direct drive
engine such as the Lycoming.
It isnt that hard, but it does require listening and understanding that there is
slop in the gears (which you should note on every preflight) hence it is intuitively
obvious to the most casual of observers that there will be areas where
if I am flying at a particular airspeed and note that the airspeed is driving
the engine RPM more than the throttle, the gearbox will rattle once the two
power/airspeeds become equal, therefore one should think ahead. Once you slow
down, you need to pull the power or that 50% throttle you have in there will
go through a speed where the unloaded prop will almost go to a loaded prop (i.e.
the engine will be driving the prop rather than the wind or equal to it).
LEARN FROM IT.
When I and many other salesmen fly with customers, we are in tune to the demonstrator
aircraft/engine/and prop, and we move the throttle as soon as we hear the
prop start to windmill. Yes, you can hear it. That way the potential customer
never feels this. Were not lying or sprinkling fair dust on the issue, we
just understand and avoid the clack. Once the buyer closes the deal, we demonstrate
that area.
Second: Regarding Heavy Props.
There are no REPUTABLE prop manufacturers that recommend props that DO NOT meet
the rotational inertia requirements of the engine manufacturer. There are of
course some buyers who believe that the longer the prop the faster and insist
on too large of a prop for the engine. WRONG! See my paper on selecting the
right prop for your Rotax powered aircraft. The inertia limit for the Airmaster
with the wide chord Warp Drive blades is 67-67.5 inches. Lighter blades and
hubs can be longer in blade length but the Rotax wont turn it and actually
the plane will slow down. At 75 inches the Rotax powered aircraft wont exceed
95-100 Knots.
Third issue: What about over pitch or lugging the engine, can I hurt the engine?
Car analogy, it is like starting out in 4th gear. Can you do it, yes, but listen
to the engine lug and the clutch slip. (Your mechanic will love you for making
his car payment.) Or perhaps trying to pass in 6th gear with the pedal to
the floor without downshifting the gearbox. My favorite is pulling a trailer
where at full throttle in 4th gear it is causing the engine and car to vibrate,
knock, and rattle as it is trying to pull the load and accelerate.
If you fly routinely at RPMs (prop pitch settings) with manifold pressures that
are higher than the prop curve (recommended settings) you are potentially lugging
the Rotax engine. The throttle plate is open trying to hold the RPM, the
engine is running richer trying to produce the power needed and your plugs are
fowling. Worse, is the engine may begin detonating (aka ping) due to the fixed
ignition, low fuel octane rating or similar issue.
This lugging can be heard in the aircraft also. The prop at a higher pitch than
optimum for the airspeed is stalling part of the prop. You can hear it thrashing,
the engine begins to sound different. Rather than normal, like a sewing
machine, it is making a deeper hum and some minor vibration can be felt in the
calf muscles of the legs. Note that the carbureted engines which have fixed
timing, detonation is a possibility if operating with low octane fuel in these
conditions. As an example, I have to do this particular exercise in prop testing
to check go around capability in high-speed aircraft (Europa, Fascination
and similar) where I simulate a prop stuck in full coarse pitch and the pilot
must execute a go around. The Rotax 9 Series will do this 4000 RPM full throttle
drill using 100LL fuel, but it sounds like the description above. Does
the engine take it, YES, does it like it, NO.
Bottom line, the Europa has a wide speed range so we can fly in areas where the
prop may be driven rather than the engine driving the prop. This can cause the
gearbox to rattle. Those who have too much prop pitch for the power setting
(constant speed commanding lower RPM than the prop power curve in the manual)
the engine is potentially lugging and you are wasting gas and running inefficiently
at a minimum.
As a pilot and student of aviation learn your Manifold/RPM settings until you get
experience.
In the 912 or 912S equipped with a fixed pitch prop, set the prop pitch to achieve
5200 static at full throttle. Go fly with reckless abandon without over speeding
the engine in a dive. Note in a dive to pull the throttle or slow down
to keep the gearbox from rattling or over speeding.
I do not recommend setting a fixed pitch prop to below 5000 RPM at full throttle
static any longer. Those using lower octane auto fuel may find the engine begins
to detonate in some conditions. (Note: for sales testing our cruise numbers
were done at 4000 static and full throttle to get the top speed and 10,000
foot cruise speed numbers up. Not a good rule with auto fuel, but we didnt
notice detonation using 100LL.) 5200 at full static power precludes these detonation
issues, especially with MOGAS.
With a Constant Speed prop and a 912 or 912S Set Climb RPM (5500) nearly any throttle
setting will do.
Cruise at 5000 and above sea level just about any throttle setting wont lug the
engine.
Personally, Takeoff setting and full throttle for takeoff, then once safely airborne,
simply click or set 5500 for climb at full throttle, climb to altitude
and click or set 5000 at full throttle and you will be fine as Ive never seen
a manifold pressure on the 912 series go above 26 inches in a Europa at full throttle
above sea level. It is as close to a FADEC as one can get. Just slap
the throttle up to full and click for the phase of flight.
The 914 power settings are not as simple but easy to remember.
These numbers are for efficiency and are not limitations:
Takeoff prop setting and full throttle (5700 RPM / 38-40MP) until safely airborne.
Climb: Click or set 5500/34-35 (a 100% stop is really nice to have)
Cruise Normal click or cruise at 5000/31, for better milage 4800/28-29 is nice
and comfortable and gas milage is about 30 MPG.
Loiter with the prop at 4300-4500 / 22-28MP. You will be airborne forever. But
going slow.
Downwind to landing, set prop to Climb or Takeoff, the prop will be stopped at
the fine pitch limit, and normally you will be 4000 RPM / 20-22 or so at 1000
MSL.
No issues will occur at these settings and the engine runs superbly. Setting Manifold
Pressures below the prop curve is not an issue in operating the 912 or
914 series.
Anytime you have a constant speed prop on a Rotax, set the fine pitch stop to limit
full power max RPM to about 5650 RPM to prevent an overspeed due to rapid
throttle advancement in an emergency go around. Set the coarse limit stop to
about 4000 for the Europa static on the ground at full power. If you have a
914 please install a 100% stop as you will reduce the potential for overspeed
or lugging on a go around or touch and goes. Should you have a prop stuck at
the coarse stop (4000 or so) the climb out at 100% or 115% is quite comfortable
with no issues for short term operations. The engine operates fine up to the
100% stop limit in the 914 and even the 912S but you can tell it is lugging
from the sound and vibration.
I prefer to have my clients keep their head in the books, know the recommended
pitch and power settings for flight and the RPM/MP limits of the 914/912S. Running
cheap gas and excessive pitch can cause detonation, avoid it. Keeping the
plane light and simple increases speed and reduces wear and tear.
As far as changing the gearbox design, getting more power or speed by adding components
and then doing reliability testing is fine, but my comment is changing
the gearbox/fuel system/ignition may fix one thing but it will affect many others
(like weight size and complexity). Not worth my time. For me, if the engine
isnt broke, dont fix it. But performance increases is an interesting topic
over a beer or two.
Have a happy and productive new year to all.
Bud Yerly
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509824#509824
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_prop_harmonic_range_177.pdf
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Nothing further to add...
Let's eat some more donuts!!!
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509825#509825
Message 14
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your europa this week - 22/12/22 |
Sounds great, but my 500hr gearbox ended up heavily wearing and pocketing the dogs,
and resonating in cruise (5000-5200rpm, & worse lightly loaded below 5k)
with my 912s & fixed pitch std europa wide Warp-drive (which i measured at 5400
rotational mass, near the upper rotax spec btw), and cracking my classic exhaust
repeatedly (and who knows what else got beaten up prematurely). Was never
an issue in climb or full-beans cruise (needs smooth air), with the loaded prop.
Result: All new dogs/gearset, much lighter CS e-prop (2300 rotational mass), and
the engine and airframe are now transformed, and no more cracked exhaust, and
start/stops are instant with zero banging about in the dogs.
I hope to now get much more than the 500hrs on that previous (std europa) problematic
combo. Hoping for TBO. I attribute my issues to the high compression 912s
+ heavy WD (and unkown original builders ops for its first 250hrs), and light
loading in cruise.
As for dynamic balancing, i use the PB40, in flight. I found ground dynamic balancing
is pretty well useless.
Wish i could have had better (and less expensive) luck following your general recommendations
(which was my assumption and SOP going in).
FWIW, YMMV,
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Dec 27, 2022, at 9:47 PM, budyerly@msn.com wrote:
>
>
> Pete, James and everyone else on our Matronics list,
>
> The pdf is attached showing some charts from the Rotax manual.
>
> Short Answer:
> Personally, we are getting worked up over nothing here for most of the Europa
owners and it may bring up concern that the well maintained engine/prop combo
are causing harmonic issues. We know it is not an issue for most of us. For
those who wish to rebuild their engine, modify existing engines, produce or use
auto converted engines, these are informational and thought-provoking conversations
on gearboxes and engines. Lets face it, Eggenfeller is still modifying
his gearboxes on all his engines (Honda and others). But for an established
aircraft with aviation engine/props that dealers recommend, these conversations
are not productive except with your feet up and having a beer.
>
> I agree, that geared engines do have harmonic issues if operated outside the
prescribed and tested manufacturers limitations. Where are those limits? In
the operators manual. Fly within the prop curve limits and the Rotax 9 series
with any reputable prop will perform properly. If an engine manufacturer has
no performance limitations, stay away from that engine as testing is incomplete.
>
> There are no issues with flying the Airmaster, Whirlwind, MT, Hoffman, Woodcomp
(properly maintained), on the Rotax 9 series engines. Fixed pitch props made
by reputable companies (the non flexible kind) have no issues either (fixed
pitch Warp Drive, Whirlwind, Sensenich, Woodcomp have no issues, but Kiev and
some other thin flexible props are potentially a longevity problem.) Unlike
the long stroke, over bored Lycoming 0-360/390 these engines have bore, stroke,
and compression issues which do in fact cause unfavorable harmonics so some
combinations of particular props and engine dash numbers to have restricted operation
envelopes. The Rotax does not. Rotax does have recommended RPM/MP settings
for various power settings and charts giving adequate information on operating
envelopes.
>
> Long answer for those bored or snowbound:
>
> As for Rotax operational limits:
>
> Most Europa Owners fly with the Airmaster Constant Speed propeller on the 914
and frankly from 4000 to 5800 RPM there are no issues from 20-40 inches of manifold
pressure at a constant airspeed. In other words, there are no engine/gearbox/prop
harmonic problems which will occur but you can lug the engine down
and cause issues. Go back in the archives and look at our conversations on engine
vibration. If you have vibration, follow those techniques to repair your
prop balance, suspension or carb issues. I have found that the properly carb
balanced Rotax engine with a properly static balanced prop and then a proper
dynamic balance is all we need to have a smooth running Rotax. Many get by with
a simple static balance but a dynamic balance is always a good idea.
>
> In flight using a portable dynamic balancer (such as a Dynavibe) has been used
in flight and found to be a better balance as the Europa bounces around quite
a bit on a ground run making the dynamic balance results rather chaotic. Many
times, I have had to limit the RPM in the ground dynamic balance to 4000 RPM
to make it flyable.
>
> Back to power and RPM settings.
>
>
>> From your Rotax Operators Manual:
> For the 914:
>
>
>
> For the 912S:
>
> My Notes:
> Who flies at only those power settings. Most of us, but not always.
> You can fly a Rotax 9 series at any power setting and RPM up to 5500 (remember
the 5 minute limit above 5500) at virtually any throttle/MP setting but listen
to the engine for clues on how you are operating.
>
> Downwind airspeed is 4000 RPM and 20-24 inches depending on aircraft weight trigear
or mono.
> Trigear is higher than a clean mono. That is about 25-30 Horsepower. Note in
stabilized flight the prop is loaded so the gearbox does not clatter because
the prop is pulling. You can loiter forever.
>
> In flight where are the gearbox rattle areas?
> Any throttle settings (power) that allow the prop to unload to where the prop
begins to windmill.
> Also, any power setting or throttle above that prop line RPM in the operations
charts as you are lugging the engine, in other words the prop is demanding more
power due to excessive pitch for the manifold pressure (throttle setting)
you have set.
>
> First: Pull your headphones off or turn off the ANR and listen to the engine
and prop. Pete and Area 51 and many others know what I mean. Frankly everyone
should listen to their airplane, it will talk to you. If you descend rapidly
with no regard to the sound of the engine you are doing it wrong. At 140-160
KTS with about throttle, even with a constant speed prop, the prop is being
turned by the airspeed windmilling the prop (RPM increases as speed increases
and decreases as speed is reduced is your visual clue) and once you begin to
slow down, you will hit an area where the forward speed puts the prop at zero
thrust, where the prop cant decide whether it is windmilling or pulling. A vibration
or clatter is heard or felt. The noise of the prop changes also. Get
out of that range by pulling off more throttle or adding power and pulling the
nose up to slow down. This action of pulling off the power more to force the
prop out of the windmilling speed, or reducing!
> the speed and keeping the power up enough to keep the prop pulling is common
to most aircraft, even direct drive engine such as the Lycoming.
>
> It isnt that hard, but it does require listening and understanding that there
is slop in the gears (which you should note on every preflight) hence it is intuitively
obvious to the most casual of observers that there will be areas where
if I am flying at a particular airspeed and note that the airspeed is driving
the engine RPM more than the throttle, the gearbox will rattle once the two
power/airspeeds become equal, therefore one should think ahead. Once you slow
down, you need to pull the power or that 50% throttle you have in there will
go through a speed where the unloaded prop will almost go to a loaded prop (i.e.
the engine will be driving the prop rather than the wind or equal to it).
LEARN FROM IT.
>
> When I and many other salesmen fly with customers, we are in tune to the demonstrator
aircraft/engine/and prop, and we move the throttle as soon as we hear
the prop start to windmill. Yes, you can hear it. That way the potential customer
never feels this. Were not lying or sprinkling fair dust on the issue,
we just understand and avoid the clack. Once the buyer closes the deal, we demonstrate
that area.
>
> Second: Regarding Heavy Props.
> There are no REPUTABLE prop manufacturers that recommend props that DO NOT meet
the rotational inertia requirements of the engine manufacturer. There are
of course some buyers who believe that the longer the prop the faster and insist
on too large of a prop for the engine. WRONG! See my paper on selecting the
right prop for your Rotax powered aircraft. The inertia limit for the Airmaster
with the wide chord Warp Drive blades is 67-67.5 inches. Lighter blades
and hubs can be longer in blade length but the Rotax wont turn it and actually
the plane will slow down. At 75 inches the Rotax powered aircraft wont exceed
95-100 Knots.
>
> Third issue: What about over pitch or lugging the engine, can I hurt the engine?
> Car analogy, it is like starting out in 4th gear. Can you do it, yes, but listen
to the engine lug and the clutch slip. (Your mechanic will love you for
making his car payment.) Or perhaps trying to pass in 6th gear with the pedal
to the floor without downshifting the gearbox. My favorite is pulling a trailer
where at full throttle in 4th gear it is causing the engine and car to vibrate,
knock, and rattle as it is trying to pull the load and accelerate.
>
> If you fly routinely at RPMs (prop pitch settings) with manifold pressures that
are higher than the prop curve (recommended settings) you are potentially lugging
the Rotax engine. The throttle plate is open trying to hold the RPM, the
engine is running richer trying to produce the power needed and your plugs
are fowling. Worse, is the engine may begin detonating (aka ping) due to the
fixed ignition, low fuel octane rating or similar issue.
>
> This lugging can be heard in the aircraft also. The prop at a higher pitch than
optimum for the airspeed is stalling part of the prop. You can hear it thrashing,
the engine begins to sound different. Rather than normal, like a sewing
machine, it is making a deeper hum and some minor vibration can be felt in
the calf muscles of the legs. Note that the carbureted engines which have fixed
timing, detonation is a possibility if operating with low octane fuel in these
conditions. As an example, I have to do this particular exercise in prop
testing to check go around capability in high-speed aircraft (Europa, Fascination
and similar) where I simulate a prop stuck in full coarse pitch and the pilot
must execute a go around. The Rotax 9 Series will do this 4000 RPM full
throttle drill using 100LL fuel, but it sounds like the description above. Does
the engine take it, YES, does it like it, NO.
>
> Bottom line, the Europa has a wide speed range so we can fly in areas where the
prop may be driven rather than the engine driving the prop. This can cause
the gearbox to rattle. Those who have too much prop pitch for the power setting
(constant speed commanding lower RPM than the prop power curve in the manual)
the engine is potentially lugging and you are wasting gas and running inefficiently
at a minimum.
>
> As a pilot and student of aviation learn your Manifold/RPM settings until you
get experience.
> In the 912 or 912S equipped with a fixed pitch prop, set the prop pitch to achieve
5200 static at full throttle. Go fly with reckless abandon without over
speeding the engine in a dive. Note in a dive to pull the throttle or slow down
to keep the gearbox from rattling or over speeding.
>
> I do not recommend setting a fixed pitch prop to below 5000 RPM at full throttle
static any longer. Those using lower octane auto fuel may find the engine
begins to detonate in some conditions. (Note: for sales testing our cruise
numbers were done at 4000 static and full throttle to get the top speed and 10,000
foot cruise speed numbers up. Not a good rule with auto fuel, but we didnt
notice detonation using 100LL.) 5200 at full static power precludes these
detonation issues, especially with MOGAS.
>
> With a Constant Speed prop and a 912 or 912S Set Climb RPM (5500) nearly any
throttle setting will do.
> Cruise at 5000 and above sea level just about any throttle setting wont lug the
engine.
> Personally, Takeoff setting and full throttle for takeoff, then once safely airborne,
simply click or set 5500 for climb at full throttle, climb to altitude
and click or set 5000 at full throttle and you will be fine as Ive never seen
a manifold pressure on the 912 series go above 26 inches in a Europa at full
throttle above sea level. It is as close to a FADEC as one can get. Just slap
the throttle up to full and click for the phase of flight.
>
> The 914 power settings are not as simple but easy to remember.
> These numbers are for efficiency and are not limitations:
> Takeoff prop setting and full throttle (5700 RPM / 38-40MP) until safely airborne.
> Climb: Click or set 5500/34-35 (a 100% stop is really nice to have)
> Cruise Normal click or cruise at 5000/31, for better milage 4800/28-29 is nice
and comfortable and gas milage is about 30 MPG.
> Loiter with the prop at 4300-4500 / 22-28MP. You will be airborne forever.
But going slow.
> Downwind to landing, set prop to Climb or Takeoff, the prop will be stopped at
the fine pitch limit, and normally you will be 4000 RPM / 20-22 or so at 1000
MSL.
> No issues will occur at these settings and the engine runs superbly. Setting
Manifold Pressures below the prop curve is not an issue in operating the 912
or 914 series.
>
> Anytime you have a constant speed prop on a Rotax, set the fine pitch stop to
limit full power max RPM to about 5650 RPM to prevent an overspeed due to rapid
throttle advancement in an emergency go around. Set the coarse limit stop
to about 4000 for the Europa static on the ground at full power. If you have
a 914 please install a 100% stop as you will reduce the potential for overspeed
or lugging on a go around or touch and goes. Should you have a prop stuck at
the coarse stop (4000 or so) the climb out at 100% or 115% is quite comfortable
with no issues for short term operations. The engine operates fine up to
the 100% stop limit in the 914 and even the 912S but you can tell it is lugging
from the sound and vibration.
>
> I prefer to have my clients keep their head in the books, know the recommended
pitch and power settings for flight and the RPM/MP limits of the 914/912S.
Running cheap gas and excessive pitch can cause detonation, avoid it. Keeping
the plane light and simple increases speed and reduces wear and tear.
>
> As far as changing the gearbox design, getting more power or speed by adding
components and then doing reliability testing is fine, but my comment is changing
the gearbox/fuel system/ignition may fix one thing but it will affect many
others (like weight size and complexity). Not worth my time. For me, if the
engine isnt broke, dont fix it. But performance increases is an interesting
topic over a beer or two.
>
> Have a happy and productive new year to all.
> Bud Yerly
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509824#509824
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/engine_prop_harmonic_range_177.pdf
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download |
Hi Al
You mean this document?
Best regards from Switzerland
Ruedi Vogel, HB-YJF
-----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht-----
Von: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> Im Auftrag von
alfuller194@gmail.com
Gesendet: Dienstag, 27. Dezember 2022 23:12
An: europa-list@matronics.com
Betreff: RE: Europa-List: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download
When clicking on the link it takes one to tuning for motorcycle engines.
Having deleted the prior emails, I don't remember whether the book
previously discussed was aimed at motorcycles. Can anyone remind me
whether
this is the same book?
Thanks in advance.
----------------
All the best,
Al Fuller
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com
<owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com> On Behalf Of Area-51
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2022 9:15 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Tuning For Speed - Phil Irving - Pdf download
--> <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
https://pdfcoffee.com/tuning-for-speed-p-e-irving-1965-tuning-racing-moto
rcy
cle-engines-2-pdf-free.html
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=509809#509809
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