Today's Message Index:
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1. 02:58 AM - Re: Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. (Kingsley Hurst)
2. 11:49 AM - Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. (n7188u)
3. 04:21 PM - Re: Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. (Bud Yerly)
4. 11:03 PM - Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) (Matt Dralle)
5. 11:23 PM - Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines (Matt Dralle)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. |
Hello again Chris,
When I read your post, my immediate suspicion was carby ice hence my
query. I am not suggesting you definitely have icing problems but I do
think it is worth considering it as a possibility.
Indeed Rotax don't provide any form of carb heat and I suspect this is
because they are perfectly happy to have the engines sucking hot air
under the cowl.
I have a home made intake plenum to supply cold air with as much ram air
as I can produce. My plenum is sealed to the top cowl in an effort to
prevent any loss of ram air pressure. This is not sanctioned by Rotax
of course.
With the cold air entering, I figured that it would only be a matter of
time before I got some carb icing so I purchased a hot water type Carby
Heat kit from Lockwood Aviation in the USA their being the main Rotax
agent in the US I believe.
Touch wood, this set-up has served me well for almost 400 hrs now and I
have never had an icing problem. There is certainly nothing wrong with
the way the engine runs. The good thing about this sort of carb heat is
that it stays on permanently with an undetectable power loss as opposed
to under cowl hot air induction.
Best
Kingsley
On 01.02.23 8:05 am, n7188u wrote:
>
> Thanks for the postings guys. Some answers:
>
> 1- The carb bowl vents are located in the plenum.
> 2- I have no provisions for carb heat since neither the stock Europa has it nor
Rotax provides it unless I go aftermarket.
> 3- The engine has 70 hours in it total but I did check the clutch at 25 hours.
51 NM (38 ft*lb). I can check it again.
>
> Chris
>
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. |
Thanks to all for the feedback. I think that at this point, given that the engine
behaved perfectly during the last flight with higher OATs I decided to:
1.- Recheck the gearbox clutch friction just in case (even though it was OK 40
hours ago).
2.- Tape both the oil cooler water cooler further to get the temps higher on my
next cold day flight.
3.- Try the choke idea to see if a richer mixture changes anything.
I'll report back.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=510097#510097
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold. |
Chris and Kingsley,
Keep in mind there is no choke per se on the Bing. It is an enrichening circuit
(also known as the starting carb) that only works correctly when the throttle
is closed.
Once above about 3500 RPM the enrichening circuit hole in the carb does not have
enough suction to pull fuel from the bowl and it actually leans the carburetor,
not enrichen it when the throttle plate is open.
So, two things to remember: To start the engine cold, throttle closed and starting
carb engage (choke to most of us although it is not a choke valve). Once
the engine hits we have two choices, slightly advance the throttle and or hold
the choke out until the engine begins running smooth or: For those who have
their idle set at 1600 RPM hot, and fine pitch, this means the throttle is not
set for idle per the Rotax manual. (You know that initial setting when rebuilding
the carb!) With this combo the throttle is closed hard, and little fuel
and air gets by the throttle plate and starting can be problematic unless the
throttle is cracked open a bit on start. When normally set up with an 1800
RPM fixed pitch prop pitched for a full power static of 5200 RPM (an average pitch
between climb and cruise) all starting procedures are by the book. Throttle
closed, choke out (enrichening circuit/starting carb engaged) and the engine
start is quick. (Provided the starter is cranking above 300 RPM anyway.)
Pulling the choke at higher RPMs tends to cause the engine to run lean for the
above reasons but to recap, with the throttle plate open and MP high, the float
bowl is now slightly depressurized and the main jet loses some flow because
of the lowered bowl pressure and consequently the carb leans a bit.
Refer to the Understanding the Rotax series by Phil Lockwood some 20 years ago
and a later set from Rainbow Aviation. The Rotax video series is pretty good.
Better than watching the news, or Hallmark Channel now days.
But first, look at your carbs and exhaust system. A slight jet of hot exhaust
gas can cause roughness at full or cruise power. Pay attention to soot lines
coming off the exhaust staining. If there is any soot on the carb bowl you've
got serious issues. I will fly and put my hand in the cowl access doors and
touch the carb bowls after a test flight (if I can) to see if the bowls are cool.
Gas evaporates, so even in a hot cowl, the bowls are not hot to the touch.
If one of the bowls is warm....Exhaust leak! Because the CKT exhaust systems
don't seal absolutely tight and sometimes the head to downpipe is not a tight
seal. I've had to actually use lapping compound to get a good seal.
Mid range roughness can be hard to troubleshoot. Normally compare EGT's, keep
the fuel fresh and of proper octane. Remember very old car gas won't burst with
a match, it just burns on the surface. Heck of a thing.
Next thing on roughness is carb cleanliness, balance tube leak, bowl vent leak,
manifold gasket leak / carb rubber connector socket cracked, compressions significantly
different, but usually, it's a dirty, improperly adjusted throttle
plate, carb or air leak. One culprit if the hoses and interior mechanicals are
clean, is a partially open enrichening lever. If one or both of the carb "choke"
cables do not allow full closure (on the stop) of the starting carb arm,
the engine runs rough midrange.
On the subject of carb ice in humid Florida, when the temps get into the 40-60F
range, carb ice is a real issue in a normally aspirated engine. If you run a
912 or 912S XS (cold air intake), carb ice is a real issue if the throttle is
fixed at one RPM. The Classic warm radiators preheat the air in the cowl so
it was less of a problem. One reason motorcycles don't get carb ice often is
the throttle is constantly moving. If you are looking for an idea to keep you
busy for a while, why not put in a temp probe in the Bing carb. In the Bing
Carby, there is a manifold tap that can be used to troubleshoot the throat temperature.
I've never installed a carb temp probe or considered it is because
the 912S XS models I have done all had the water jacket carb heat running at all
times.
Should you want to experiment (I know of no one that has done a true carb temp
probe), there is a screw hole that is plugged for our Rotax Europa's in the carb
I think it is an M3 screw for a manifold pressure tap on single carb engines,
but you can just as easily put in a Harbor Freight thermocouple drilled in
a brass screw and some JB Weld or similar, and check your throat temp but that
is not really an easy thing to do.
Enough of my tomes,
Bud Yerly
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com>
On Behalf Of n7188u
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2023 2:49 PM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: New engine runs a little rough when weather is cold.
Thanks to all for the feedback. I think that at this point, given that the engine
behaved perfectly during the last flight with higher OATs I decided to:
1.- Recheck the gearbox clutch friction just in case (even though it was OK 40
hours ago).
2.- Tape both the oil cooler water cooler further to get the temps higher on my
next cold day flight.
3.- Try the choke idea to see if a richer mixture changes anything.
I'll report back.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.matronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D510097%23510097&data=05%7C01%7C%7C7b23e0b5ee594746f1d208db048dd7aa%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C638108779479799766%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=s12gKNzRZcXzeyWs8J1vWN9BeHoNgpFmAFp7XDiFsqY%3D&reserved=0
Message 4
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) |
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to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
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| Subject: | Official Europa-List Usage Guidelines |
Dear Listers,
Please read over the Europa-List Usage Guidelines below. The complete
Europa-List FAQ including these Usage Guidelines can be found at the
following URL:
http://www.matronics.com/FAQs/Europa-List.FAQ.html
Thank you,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
******************************************************************************
Europa-List Usage Guidelines
******************************************************************************
The following details the official Usage Guidelines for the Europa-List.
You are encouraged to read it carefully, and to abide by the rules therein.
Failure to use the Europa-List in the manner described below may result
in the removal of the subscribers from the List.
Europa-List Policy Statement
The purpose of the Europa-List is to provide a forum of discussion for
things related to this particular discussion group. The List's goals
are to serve as an information resource to its members; to deliver
high-quality content; to provide moral support; to foster camaraderie
among its members; and to support safe operation. Reaching these goals
requires the participation and cooperation of each and every member of
the List. To this end, the following guidelines have been established:
- Please keep all posts related to the List at some level. Do not submit
posts concerning computer viruses, urban legends, random humor, long
lost buddies' phone numbers, etc. etc.
- THINK carefully before you write. Ask yourself if your post will be
relevant to everyone. If you have to wonder about that, DON'T send it.
- Remember that your post will be included for posterity in an archive
that is growing in size at an extraordinary rate. Try to be concise and
terse in your posts. Avoid overly wordy and lengthy posts and
responses.
- Keep your signature brief. Please include your name, email address,
aircraft type/tail number, and geographic location. A short line
about where you are in the building process is also nice. Avoid
bulky signatures with character graphics; they consume unnecessary
space in the archive.
- DON'T post requests to the List for information when that info is
easily obtainable from other widely available sources. Consult the
web page or FAQ first.
- If you want to respond to a post, DO keep the "Subject:" line of
your response the same as that of the original post. This makes it
easy to find threads in the archive.
- When responding, NEVER quote the *entire* original post in your
response. DO use lines from the original post to help "tune in" the
reader to the topic at hand, but be selective. The impact that
quoting the entire original post has on the size of the archive
can not be overstated!
- When the poster asks you to respond to him/her personally, DO NOT
then go ahead and reply to the List. Be aware that clicking the
"reply" button on your mail package does not necessarily send your
response to the original poster. You might have to actively address
your response with the original poster's email address.
- DO NOT use the List to respond to a post unless you have something
to add that is relevant and has a broad appeal. "Way to go!", "I
agree", and "Congratulations" are all responses that are better sent
to the original poster directly, rather than to the List at large.
- When responding to others' posts, avoid the feeling that you need to
comment on every last point in their posts, unless you can truly
contribute something valuable.
- Feel free to disagree with other viewpoints, BUT keep your tone
polite and respectful. Don't make snide comments, personally attack
other listers, or take the moral high ground on an obviously
controversial issue. This will only cause a pointless debate that
will hurt feelings, waste bandwidth and resolve nothing.
- Occasional posts by vendors or individuals who are regularly
subscribed to a given List are considered acceptable. Posts by
List members promoting their respective products or items for sale
should be of a friendly, informal nature, and should not resemble
a typical SPAM message. The List isn't about commercialism, but
is about sharing information and knowledge. This applies to
everyone, including those who provide products to the entire
community. Informal presentation and moderation should be the
operatives with respect to advertising on the Lists.
-------
[This is an automated posting.]
do not archive
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