Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 05:23 AM - Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (n7188u)
2. 08:26 AM - Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (Pete)
3. 12:13 PM - Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (n7188u)
4. 01:00 PM - Re: Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (Pete)
5. 07:59 PM - Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (Area-51)
6. 07:59 PM - Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint (Area-51)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Hello Europa Family,
First of all Happy New Year together with hopes of a great year 2024! I also hope
you had enjoyable holidays (I did have a very special one, which included a
Europa related activity, and I will an expand on a following posting).
The reason for my posting today is that Ive been having a slight exhaust leak through
the #4 cylinder head joint to the manifold. I had this leak on my old engine
and again on my new one so I can safely assume it is related to either pipe
alignment or warped mating surface at the pipe. My other three pipes are not
leaking. So far I have realigned the pipe multiple time to try to improve the
seating of the manifold on the head with no success. I am afraid that if it
continues like this it will eventually damage the head sealing surface.
I am sure that if CKT was still around I could talk to them and solve this issue
(I should have done that earlier) but so its life. Anyone in the forum had this
issue and resolved it hopefully without requiring new parts?
What occurs to me as possible solutions:
1.- Check if the mating surface in the joint is not warped (no idea yet how) and
correct it (also no idea how).
2.- If the joint is not bad, lap the joint.
3.- Use an exhaust system sealant. Heide at CKT once recommended Hylomar EAP5 for
the slight leak at the slip joint in the #1 cylinder pipe. I would think this
could help but only short term as this joint probably moves a little.
4.- I read in the Rotax-Owner forum that CKT would sometimes recommend a sleeve
to be placed in the joint (I think this is for a seriously worn cylinder mating
surface). It would be nice if some sort of soft gasket existed for this joint.
I will check on the Rotax maintenance documentation but does anyone know what the
specification is for the cylinder head exhaust port joint mating surface. I
would think that the exhaust one should be slightly spherical to allow some misalignment.
A lapping tool could be created to rectify the surface on the pipe
but that could get expensive (I wish I still had my machine shop).
Anyway, I will await for our valued opinions on this subject.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513018#513018
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Are these the sleeved ones? Or the ball joint looking rounded seal? I have the
latter on my classic, and eliminated all my leaks by using genuine Honda motorcycle
copper exhaust gaskets.
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Jan 5, 2024, at 11:18AM, n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Hello Europa Family,
>
> First of all Happy New Year together with hopes of a great year 2024! I also
hope you had enjoyable holidays (I did have a very special one, which included
a Europa related activity, and I will an expand on a following posting).
>
> The reason for my posting today is that Ive been having a slight exhaust leak
through the #4 cylinder head joint to the manifold. I had this leak on my old
engine and again on my new one so I can safely assume it is related to either
pipe alignment or warped mating surface at the pipe. My other three pipes are
not leaking. So far I have realigned the pipe multiple time to try to improve
the seating of the manifold on the head with no success. I am afraid that if
it continues like this it will eventually damage the head sealing surface.
>
> I am sure that if CKT was still around I could talk to them and solve this issue
(I should have done that earlier) but so its life. Anyone in the forum had
this issue and resolved it hopefully without requiring new parts?
>
> What occurs to me as possible solutions:
>
> 1.- Check if the mating surface in the joint is not warped (no idea yet how)
and correct it (also no idea how).
> 2.- If the joint is not bad, lap the joint.
> 3.- Use an exhaust system sealant. Heide at CKT once recommended Hylomar EAP5
for the slight leak at the slip joint in the #1 cylinder pipe. I would think
this could help but only short term as this joint probably moves a little.
> 4.- I read in the Rotax-Owner forum that CKT would sometimes recommend a sleeve
to be placed in the joint (I think this is for a seriously worn cylinder mating
surface). It would be nice if some sort of soft gasket existed for this joint.
>
> I will check on the Rotax maintenance documentation but does anyone know what
the specification is for the cylinder head exhaust port joint mating surface.
I would think that the exhaust one should be slightly spherical to allow some
misalignment. A lapping tool could be created to rectify the surface on the
pipe but that could get expensive (I wish I still had my machine shop).
>
> Anyway, I will await for our valued opinions on this subject.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513018#513018
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Thanks Peter,
Not sure what the sleeved one is (the Rotax style?) but I have a CKT muffler purchased
3+ years ago. Just a ball(ish) or taper looking ring at the end of the
tube.
What is this Honda copper gasket you use?
I looked at it again today and in reality the leak is very minor and no obvious
gap is visible. But again I am concerned about deterioration of the aluminum
surface on the head.
For now I ordered the Hylomar seal compound and I will thoroughly clean the surfaces
and will reinstall with that.
I also heard something about Bud having a lapping procedure for this. I appreciate
all advice.
Chris
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513022#513022
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Ya, meant the rotax style. I have the same as you, ballish ring clamped wi
th floating flange.
My heads were properly ruined with fretting and leaking, in addition to thre
e cracked headers (one at a time) .all due to torsional resonance w
ith my original (heavy) three blade warp drive taper blade fixed pitch prop a
nd the resultant pocketed gearbox dogs.
To rescue the heads I had to lap them with the an exhaust ball-end, but they
would still leak due to the pitting. The Honda copper crush gaskets proved
leak and trouble free.
P/N 18291-MN5-650 per the attached photo.
I did end up replacing my gearbox dogs (and thus the gearset sadly $$$), and
upgraded to the super light wieght CS E-prop and all my issues have disappe
ared :-D. And the replaced dogs still look like new after 400hrs. I=99
m confident that the dogs were pocketed during Troy=99s initial 250hrs
.
No more resonance or cracked exhausts since (they were cracking every 70hrs o
r so).
Cheers,
PeteZ
> On Jan 5, 2024, at 3:26=AFPM, n7188u <chmgarb@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Peter,
>
> Not sure what the sleeved one is (the Rotax style?) but I have a CKT muffl
er purchased 3+ years ago. Just a ball(ish) or taper looking ring at the end
of the tube.
>
> What is this Honda copper gasket you use?
>
> I looked at it again today and in reality the leak is very minor and no ob
vious gap is visible. But again I am concerned about deterioration of the al
uminum surface on the head.
>
> For now I ordered the Hylomar seal compound and I will thoroughly clean th
e surfaces and will reinstall with that.
>
> I also heard something about Bud having a lapping procedure for this. I ap
preciate all advice.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513022#513022
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Several possibilities; all treated differently.
The cylinder head sealing contact surface itself could require lapping. Best way
to affect this is removal and bench lapping with 240g paper glued onto the exhaust
header with contact cement; some kerosene as lubricant and rotate header
back n forth about 50deg for a bit, then lift and rotate 30-70deg and repeat
several times Not much pressure required. Easiest to clamp header pointing up
and rotate head upon it; makes cleanup easier... can use valve grinding past
as well... soot or bearing blue at the start and end can be used to check sealing
surface for gaps. Sealing surface only requires 1mm cross section.
The 914 has part of the header extending into exhaust port; it is a very firm fit
when new; long term slop flogs out this area in the head casting and requires
sleeving insert to prevent leakage.
Copper compress rings can be used as mentioned and should be set centered and tensioned
again when hot. This is a bandaid approach to rotax factory sealing method
and may work totally fine. Have found copper rings on some engines.
Heat expansion of the header pipe may be causing movement at the sealing point
and returning to normal once cooled down. Stainless steel pipes grow a fair bit
when heated up. Some stainless steel exhaust systems on cars can grow up to
30mm... Try loosening off header at cylinder head and collector; give the header
a few light taps with hide hammer and retighten just under spec and again once
cooled down. Observe for outcome.
Check the clamping collar when tensioned; there needs to be a gap between the collar
and the head; the collars bend quite easily when over tensioned.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513026#513026
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Slight exhaust leak at cylinder head manifold joint |
Several possibilities; all treated differently.
The cylinder head sealing contact surface itself could require lapping. Best way
to affect this is removal and bench lapping with 240g paper glued onto the exhaust
header with contact cement; some kerosene as lubricant and rotate header
back n forth about 50deg for a bit, then lift and rotate 30-70deg and repeat
several times Not much pressure required. Easiest to clamp header pointing up
and rotate head upon it; makes cleanup easier... can use valve grinding past
as well... soot or bearing blue at the start and end can be used to check sealing
surface for gaps. Sealing surface only requires 1mm cross section.
The 914 has part of the header extending into exhaust port; it is a very firm fit
when new; long term slop flogs out this area in the head casting and requires
sleeving insert to prevent leakage.
Copper compress rings can be used as mentioned and should be set centered and tensioned
again when hot. This is a bandaid approach to rotax factory sealing method
and may work totally fine. Have found copper rings on some engines.
Heat expansion of the header pipe may be causing movement at the sealing point
and returning to normal once cooled down. Stainless steel pipes grow a fair bit
when heated up. Some stainless steel exhaust systems on cars can grow up to
30mm... Try loosening off header at cylinder head and collector; give the header
a few light taps with hide hammer and retighten just under spec and again once
cooled down. Observe for outcome.
Check the clamping collar when tensioned; there needs to be a gap between the collar
and the head; the collars bend quite easily when over tensioned.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513027#513027
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