Today's Message Index:
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1. 05:47 AM - Trailing edge elevator deflection issue (tonyvaccarella)
2. 06:41 AM - Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue (D McFadyean)
3. 08:01 AM - Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue (Bud Yerly)
4. 07:40 PM - Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue (tony@weimagine.com.au)
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| Subject: | Trailing edge elevator deflection issue |
Hello intrepid flyers,
An inspection recently showed that the trailing edge deflection on my Europa XS
was not to spec. We adjusted the rod-ends at the end of the pitch tube but we
only managed to get 12 deg up and 3 deg down (total of 15 deg overall deflection).
Any further adjustments would either provide an increase in the up direction
with a corresponding reduction in the down direction - maintaining the 15
degree overall deflection.
Mass balance weight does not touch its limits and the anti-servo T-Bar is free
and does not hit the fusalage.
Can some wise builder advise the method used to increase the full deflection range
- Id like to get about 16 to 18 degrees if possible.
Many thanks to all
Tony
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513387#513387
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| Subject: | Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue |
Check that all other linkages in the elevator system are working at maximum gearage,
i.e. the geometry of all other pushrods and horns are at right angles when
at the middle of their range. If too oblique, there will be loss of range.
Duncan McF.
> On 18/03/2024 12:46 tonyvaccarella <tony@weimagine.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> Hello intrepid flyers,
>
> An inspection recently showed that the trailing edge deflection on my Europa
XS was not to spec. We adjusted the rod-ends at the end of the pitch tube but
we only managed to get 12 deg up and 3 deg down (total of 15 deg overall deflection).
Any further adjustments would either provide an increase in the up direction
with a corresponding reduction in the down direction - maintaining the
15 degree overall deflection.
>
> Mass balance weight does not touch its limits and the anti-servo T-Bar is free
and does not hit the fusalage.
>
> Can some wise builder advise the method used to increase the full deflection
range - Id like to get about 16 to 18 degrees if possible.
>
> Many thanks to all
>
> Tony
>
> --------
> Tony Vaccarella
> Mascot NSW 2020
> Sydney Australia
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=513387#513387
>
>
>
>
>
>
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| Subject: | Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue |
Tony,
If our stab mechanism is hitting the mechanical mass balance limits at the
mass balance arm and you are sure the pitch tube MW bearings are clear on t
he pitch torque tube (CS10) in the wing center and there is not mechanical
binding there, look at the following:
It is quite easy technically to adjust the incidence of the stabilator by c
hanging the stabilator balance weight upper and lower mass balance stops.
Hopefully you have done the Mod 70, but even if you haven't, it's straight
forward. (Mod 70 and or the cable sway supports with original TP18 fitting
s can still can be adjusted easily).
You are essentially looking to have +13,-5 or a minimum of +12,-4 degrees o
f trailing edge travel so 16-18 degrees total from full up to down.
Simply carve the upper and lower slots to get the total travel plus the bum
p stop rubber and reinstall the bump stop rubbers and recheck.
I have an archived a document somewhere, but the main issue is the uncomfor
table access if the viewing/inspection plates are small.
I see this all the time on prebuy inspections and it can be an 2-8 hour exe
rcise but it is worth it to get the stab incidence right.
The amount to actually relieve the current stops starts with measurement of
course.
I personally pull off the installed upper rubber stop (as many builders fai
l to adjust for the bump stop thickness) on the top and sometimes the botto
m to make my adjustment but always measure and look first. In some cases a
large upper stop has been made that has about 20mm between the wood cutout
and the fuselage inside top surface. Remove the rubber bump and Demel out
the arc to suit your stab throw needs to increase the TE down (mass balanc
e hitting the top stop). Some have the upper mass balance stop nearly at th
e upper skin so you have the lower limit to move only. In your case with o
nly needing a degree, pull the top rubber stop off and see if you can relie
ve that a bit, then reinstall your rubber bumper and install a stick betwee
n the lower stop and the weight to hold the stop firmly until it dries. To
make it pretty, get the arc set by using a thin metal strip bent to a plea
sing arc while holding the mass balance firmly to the stop limit.
If you have a nose down of -4 degrees and just need a bit on the up stop li
mit, the rubber bolted wood dowel normally can be changed. This can be cha
nged by simply moving the lower stop down a bit (filling and redrilling) or
if clearances are an issue with the stab push pull tube, 3D printing a sma
ller cylinder or by center drilling a smaller wood dowel and fitting a rubb
er hose sized properly to get more trailing edge up to suite your throw nee
ds.
Once the total throw is as you desire (normally 17 degrees (+13,-4)) but yo
u cut or modified both the upper and lower stops, there is little chance th
at the new top and bottom stops are perfect, so one must remove the stabs (
for ease of access) and "simply" remove the TP18 adjustment body bolts and
adjust the mass balance arm and reassemble as necessary to get the stab mec
hanical stops up front to clear nicely. That is time and patience consumin
g to get the desired +13 to -5 hence, 17 degrees may be a better option. A
nd this is where the time and patience grows thin. Suck it up and make a p
in to replace the bolt to make adjustments of the TP18C easier. Then reins
tall the bolt while forcing the pin you made and bolt it up. Carefully and
patiently readjust the full down limit to -4 degrees to -5 degrees so the
pitch tube doesn't bind on the torque tube (full forward stick also not hit
ting the panel). If the controls were built per the manual, you now should
only have the trailing edge up or stick aft issue to get adjusted. Again,
if the torque tube arms in the center tunnel don't hit the limit at the ro
ll tube arm CS08. If you have issues with the original build in this clear
ance, much adjusting will be necessary to allow the stick movement, pushrod
s, arms and torque tube to work properly. Then you have the issues of push
rod adjustment and perhaps even stab push tube lengthening to contend with
. I've done them all and it can try ones patience but it is worth it in th
e end.
To be honest, if you have a weight and balance near 60 per the manual, +12-
4 stab travel is quite acceptable. If it is a nose heavy or tail heavy bea
st, then go for full travel.
If you notice the left and right stab incidence is noticeably different the
n a bit of extra work will make all that work out also, see pdf attached.
Whatever you do, the mechanical bolts and metal fittings can't bind at the
cockpit module linkages. If you can adjust only one stop, life is good.
If you must adjust both, and then find the limit is with the pitch tube hit
ting the mechanical limits. Life will suck a bit. Then we must adjust the
stick travel and limits to just clear and then go back to the stab stop li
mits and continue aft until all is well.
I've only had two cups of coffee, so email back if you need more clarificat
ion Tony.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of tonyvaccarella <tony@weimagine.com.au>
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2024 8:46 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue
Hello intrepid flyers,
An inspection recently showed that the trailing edge deflection on my Europ
a XS was not to spec. We adjusted the rod-ends at the end of the pitch tube
but we only managed to get 12 deg up and 3 deg down (total of 15 deg overa
ll deflection). Any further adjustments would either provide an increase in
the up direction with a corresponding reduction in the down direction - ma
intaining the 15 degree overall deflection.
Mass balance weight does not touch its limits and the anti-servo T-Bar is f
ree and does not hit the fusalage.
Can some wise builder advise the method used to increase the full deflectio
n range - Id like to get about 16 to 18 degrees if possible.
Many thanks to all
Tony
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma
tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D513387%23513387&data=05%7C02%7C%7C05c71
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| Subject: | Re: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue |
Hi Bud,
As always - a very informative reply.
As it stands now - the mass balance arm top or bottom dont come anywhere ne
ar the stops - so thats not the issue - what else can I look at?
What I dont understand is that I originally check this before first flight
an we were getting bout 14 deg up and on rechecking this weekend I barely g
ot 9 deg up.
Its got me scratching my head.
Regards,
Tony
=C2-
On Mon, 18 Mar 2024 15:00:39 +0000, Bud Yerly <budyerly@msn.com> wrote:
=C2-
Tony,
If our stab mechanism is hitting the mechanical mass balance limits at the
mass balance arm and you are sure the pitch tube MW bearings are clear on t
he pitch torque tube (CS10) in the wing center and there is not mechanical
binding there, look at the following:
=C2-
It is quite easy technically to adjust the incidence of the stabilator by c
hanging the stabilator balance weight upper and lower mass balance stops.
=C2-
Hopefully you have done the Mod 70, but even if you haven't, it's straight
forward.=C2- (Mod 70 and or the cable sway supports with original TP18 fi
ttings can still can be adjusted easily).
=C2-
You are essentially looking to have +13,-5 or a minimum of +12,-4 degrees o
f trailing edge travel so 16-18 degrees total from full up to down.
Simply carve the upper and lower slots to get the total travel plus the bum
p stop rubber and reinstall the bump stop rubbers and recheck.
=C2-
I have an archived a document somewhere, but the main issue is the uncomfor
table access if the viewing/inspection plates are small.
=C2-
I see this all the time on prebuy inspections and it can be an 2-8 hour exe
rcise but it is worth it to get the stab incidence right.
The amount to actually relieve the current stops starts with measurement of
course.
=C2-
I personally pull off the installed upper rubber stop (as many builders fai
l to adjust for the bump stop thickness) on the top and sometimes the botto
m to make my adjustment but always measure and look first.=C2- In some ca
ses a large upper stop has been made that has about 20mm between the wood c
utout and the fuselage inside top surface.=C2- Remove the rubber bump and
Demel out the arc to suit your stab throw needs to increase the TE down (m
ass balance hitting the top stop). Some have the upper mass balance stop ne
arly at the upper skin so you have the lower limit to move only.=C2- In y
our case with only needing a degree, pull the top rubber stop off and see i
f you can relieve that a bit, then reinstall your rubber bumper and install
a stick between the lower stop and the weight to hold the stop firmly unti
l it dries.=C2- To make it pretty, get the arc set by using a thin metal
strip bent to a pleasing arc while holding the mass balance firmly to the s
top limit.
=C2-
If you have a nose down of -4 degrees and just need a bit on the up stop li
mit, the rubber bolted wood dowel normally can be changed.=C2- This can b
e changed by simply moving the lower stop down a bit (filling and redrillin
g) or if clearances are an issue with the stab push pull tube, 3D printing
a smaller cylinder or by center drilling a smaller wood dowel and fitting a
rubber hose sized properly to get more trailing edge up to suite your thro
w needs.=C2-
=C2-
Once the total throw is as you desire (normally 17 degrees (+13,-4)) but yo
u cut or modified both the upper and lower stops, there is little chance th
at the new top and bottom stops are perfect, so one must remove the stabs (
for ease of access) and "simply" remove the TP18 adjustment body bolts and
adjust the mass balance arm and reassemble as necessary to get the stab mec
hanical stops up front to clear nicely.=C2- That is time and patience con
suming to get the desired +13 to -5 hence, 17 degrees may be a better optio
n.=C2- And this is where the time and patience grows thin.=C2- Suck it
up and make a pin to replace the bolt to make adjustments of the TP18C easi
er.=C2- Then reinstall the bolt while forcing the pin you made and bolt i
t up.=C2- Carefully and patiently readjust the full down limit to -4 degr
ees to -5 degrees so the pitch tube doesn't bind on the torque tube (full f
orward stick also not hitting the panel).=C2- If the controls were built
per the manual, you now should only have the trailing edge up or stick aft
issue to get adjusted.=C2- Again, if the torque tube arms in the center t
unnel don't hit the limit at the roll tube arm CS08.=C2- If you have issu
es with the original build in this clearance, much adjusting will be necess
ary to allow the stick movement, pushrods, arms and torque tube to work pro
perly.=C2- Then you have the issues of push rod adjustment and perhaps ev
en stab push tube lengthening to contend with.=C2- I've done them all and
it can try ones patience but it is worth it in the end.
=C2-
To be honest, if you have a weight and balance near 60 per the manual, +12-
4 stab travel is quite acceptable.=C2- If it is a nose heavy or tail heav
y beast, then go for full travel.
=C2-
If you notice the left and right stab incidence is noticeably different the
n a bit of extra work will make all that work out also, see pdf attached.
=C2-
Whatever you do, the mechanical bolts and metal fittings can't bind at the
cockpit module linkages.=C2- =C2-If you can adjust only one stop, life
is good.=C2- If you must adjust both, and then find the limit is with the
pitch tube hitting the mechanical limits.=C2- Life will suck a bit.=C2
- Then we must adjust the stick travel and limits to just clear and then
go back to the stab stop limits and continue aft until all is well.
=C2-
I've only had two cups of coffee, so email back if you need more clarificat
ion Tony.
=C2-
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
=C2-
=C2-
From:=C2-owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server
@matronics.com> on behalf of tonyvaccarella <tony@weimagine.com.au>
Sent:=C2-Monday, March 18, 2024 8:46 AM
To:=C2-europa-list@matronics.com <europa-list@matronics.com>
Subject:=C2-Europa-List: Trailing edge elevator deflection issue
=C2-
Hello intrepid flyers,
An inspection recently showed that the trailing edge deflection on my Europ
a XS was not to spec. We adjusted the rod-ends at the end of the pitch tube
but we only managed to get 12 deg up and 3 deg down (total of 15 deg overa
ll deflection). Any further adjustments would either provide an increase in
the up direction with a corresponding reduction in the down direction - ma
intaining the 15 degree overall deflection.
Mass balance weight does not touch its limits and the anti-servo T-Bar is f
ree and does not hit the fusalage.
Can some wise builder advise the method used to increase the full deflectio
n range - Id like to get about 16 to 18 degrees if possible.
Many thanks to all
Tony
--------
Tony Vaccarella
Mascot NSW 2020
Sydney Australia
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma
tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D513387%23513387&data=05%7C02%7C%7C05c71
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