Today's Message Index:
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1. 12:02 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 (Steven Dumesny)
2. 02:40 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 (Area-51)
3. 05:06 AM - Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 (Area-51)
4. 07:37 AM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 (Bud Yerly)
5. 01:49 PM - Re: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 (D McFadyean)
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 |
Totally agree with Erich what a great clean up job.
Also I don't ever recall seeing such pitting on an exhaust valve seat in any application,
it looks like a chemical reaction?
After reading Mike Busch on engines, I plan to use a bore scope every 100 hours,
it should pick up these signs earlier, and I can review images against previous
services.
"What I did with my Europa today" was had an experienced Europa builder visit and
we went over mine, it was great day and I learnt a lot and have a few new tasks.
Thank you for your images in this post.
Best regards
Steve[/quote]
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515225#515225
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 |
Job done; my fingers are sore again... ready to box up swap out the 80hp.
This unit scrubbed up great in the end; as good as new, with 700hrs and 4years
TBO remaining. Now just have to replace the few throttle arms and spark plug caps
I raided off a while back for the 80hp in 181.
What was learnt through this process:
The rotax 912ULS-S2 will benefit greatly with a cylinder head service at 1000hrs.
Which will prevent the exhaust valves having to be binned at 2000hrs TBO, and
return the unit to full compression.
Inlet valve stem seals provide inadequate sealing of oil ingress into the inlet
port at 1300hrs, causing carbon build up upon the inlet valve and combustion
chamber. The symptom of this is seen via low compression on one cylinder during
burping as loose bits get trapped under the valve seat. It blows out upon startup
but is indicative inlet valve stem seals are failing.
Rear two cylinders of the 912 ULS-S2 run hotter than the front two cylinders. This
shows up as minor evidence of detonation erosion on the piston crown and combustion
chamber.
For reasons unknown #4 cylinder has had a Sodium "Inlet" Valve fitted.
All four exhaust valves exhibited pitted seats (same as recent 914 job) indicating
either hot lean mixtures or acid chemical erosion. The valves are softer than
the seats.
The pistons crowns in the 912 are very soft material. A head nut dropped from the
barrel stud and fell onto the crown leaving a small indentation; very soft
material.
Now that You have read all that nominal stuff I can discuss cleaning methods...
Firstly you will need "high end laboratory tools" like in the attached pictures.
Secondly, expect to end the task with really sore fingers by the end from using
some of the high end laboratory equipment. The secret to achieving the look
achieved is knowing what materials to use; I will go on...
Ultrasonic cleaning bin; I have 5L and 25L units... This is great, but not that
great for alloy motor bits; darkens the metal. I need to try sewing machine oil
or sulphuric acid and see what the results are. So caustic alkaline fluids
are no good for zinc, or zinc alloys.
Scotch pad; industrial grade "grey"; available in a roll at your local paint panel
trade supplier... I use this with diluted sugar soap to "finish" clean everything
before spray and wipe off with Wurth Rostoff. You will have tired and
sore fingers afterwards if you scrub an entire engine.
Brass brush... used to descale corrosion off the engine exterior.
Tooth brush... used to scrub exterior of engine
Stainless brush... used to scrub bits i should be using the brass brush for.
215 or 225 Aluminium sheet. I use this to create some of the high end laboratory
equipment. It is used to scrape off the piston crown, head ports, combustion
chambers and cylinder wall, and is softer than the piston crown. The edges need
to be kept dressed as you work scraping off the crap. You will have sore fingers
by the end from scraping... Any piece of metal softer than the piston crown
will do the job but you will struggle with lead; mercury would be totally
useless though...
Threaded brass pipe. I use this on the exhaust valve stem as a rasp to get the
tough shit off quickly.
A piece of flat 0.125" 2030 carbon steel. I use this on the exhaust valve to scrape
off the really tough shit.
An oyster shucker. I use this to get the "nothing else will budge it" stuff out
of the exhaust port. Its a delicate light handed job because the oyster shucker
is hardened steel and will ruin a valve seat and slice through a finger instantly
without taking any prisoners.
A piece of TIG welding rod, hammered flat and bent 90deg at one end. This is one
of my favourite tools and is used to extract hydraulic lifters to check their
face condition.
(When lifting the cylinder barrels you may notice three numbers felt tipped onto
the barrel; record these numbers. They are your bore dimensions taken at the
factory during engine assembly)
3D printer. Used to print the valve spring compressor.
A vacuum cleaner with a high end laboratory attachment such as repurposed piece
of washing machine drainage pipe. Used to extract all the crap from the cylinder
and ring lands, and valve ports as you go and keeps the work area clean. Wife
will scream and be unhappy for a while, but its only momentary...
Air compressor. To blow out any thread bores before bolting up.
(x4) 2" sections of 3/8 fuel hose.. I use this to seal off the cylinder studs and
hold the barrels in place as I work. Screw down two head nuts and you can roll
the motor over while head is off. They can be fun to remove afterwards; i
use pointed pliers to lift them up and off.
Wurth Rostoff... I use this to wash off the scotch brite residue when cleaning
completed. I also skirt a bit into the valve port together with some oil when
lapping in the valves. I use a cordless drill on the top of valve stem; much quicker
than old timer method.
Each head takes about four hours to process. You will have sore fingers by about
midway through the second cylinder onwards.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515226#515226
Attachments:
http://forums.matronics.com//files/82f80629_5d6f_431a_988f_def7d1b1ab94_176.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/b54fcbdc_c2cd_4fa8_9cf4_b803bfa19f65_611.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/6720f7f1_9578_4957_bc82_79013a0eef39_210.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/d87e9a48_4dd6_4055_8dac_defd7d3cb284_202.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/7d16fc21_a822_48d0_b575_24980099e944_192.jpeg
http://forums.matronics.com//files/633d06b0_3d64_4638_b364_faf73924e59e_153.jpeg
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 |
[quote="Steven Dumesny"]Totally agree with Erich what a great clean up job.
Also I don't ever recall seeing such pitting on an exhaust valve seat in any application,
it looks like a chemical reaction?
After reading Mike Busch on engines, [u]I plan to use a bore scope every 100 hours[/u],
it should pick up these signs earlier, and I can review images against
previous services.
Steve[/quote][/quote]
Found bore scope to be totally useless; except for normal looking crowns and honing
marks couldn't see s;&@... hence listen to my better judgement telling me
to pull the heads off and scrutinise things properly on an unfamiliar unit.
Lifting the barrels also allows inspection with mirror beneath the piston crowns
to confirm any excessive long term running temperature issues. Also allows
visual of the camshaft condition.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515227#515227
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 |
I have been looking at this thread and finally I see folks seeing what real
ly needs to be done on annual and on an IRAN (Inspect and Repair As Necessa
ry) on an airplane.
A borescope is a wonderful tool (properly sized and of descent quality). B
ut it does not replace direct visual inspection, measurement and analysis.
The Rotax 912/912S and 914 are wonderfully simple engines and easily unders
tood, but the maintenance, feeding and upkeep are often ignored.
I do not care what type of fuel one is using, deposits in combustion are a
fact of life. I have been using 100LL with TCP lead scavenging for nearly
500 hours and at 500 hours I had Lockwood redo my gearbox, pull the heads a
nd inspect for damage from an overspeed. Next to my engine was a 914 that
ran purely unleaded fuel and frankly my engine was slightly cleaner. But b
oth engines clearly had valve debris built up, and there was some crud on t
he pistons tops that wire brushed off, and after a valve lapping and piston
head cleanup all was measured and found within service limits. After reas
sembly and some reassembly errors, the compressions were back up to roughly
79/80 on a differential compression tester.
The cost was $3500 ish and a week at Lockwood for my overspeed mistake. I
t was well worth it now that burping is quick and easy. Nominally for an a
ircraft engine, the cost per hour for maintenance of just the engine is abo
ut $10-$20 per flight hour which includes only oil changes and servicing to
include repairs and inspection. Mine runs about $10 RETAIL COST per hour
over the last 500 hours. Considering we run these engines hard (75% power
80% of the time, 95-100% power 10% of the time, and low power about 10% of
the time) this is amazing. No stock car engine could hold up to these cost
per hour numbers (as it would be considered a racing engine). I change oi
l every 25 hours and do a 25-hour inspection and an IRAN every 5 years. He
nce, the engine and plane run very well. (I'd like to say all my experimen
tal "upgrades" on the airframe did as well but alas.... not all ideas work
out quickly and easily which is cost and downtime.) I change the plugs ann
ually as the NGK types are cheap when I consider the time it takes to prope
rly clean the plugs vs replacement and change the filter at 25 hours to ins
pect for metal and carbon as it is a turbo engine carbon can flake off into
the oil. Carbs, I rebuild about every 200 hours or couple years because I
can in about 2 hours during an annual so performance is assured. I tune b
y ear and only check the balance by manometers to assure balance from idle
to full power.
As pilots most of us were taught to baby our engines to save the life of th
e engine. I push my engine to full power on takeoff, climb at recommended
power, and cruise no less than 75% power. I am considered hard on the engi
ne doing stalls, air-work, and occasional limit testing of the airframe and
myself. The Rotax 914 and its electronics have held up extremely well to
what many would call "rough service". I am confident that a simple top ove
rhaul and inspection about every 500 hours in my case, is reasonable assura
nce that I can get 1500 hours of safe and reliable operations out of my Rot
ax before I need a no kidding overhaul or replacement.
Fly the engine often, and pay attention to any tell tale leaks, runs, drips
or errors, service IAW the Rotax maintenance manual and these little stock
Rotax engines are amazing.
Anyway, that is my opinion.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
________________________________
From: owner-europa-list-server@matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server@matr
onics.com> on behalf of Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com>
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2025 8:06 AM
Subject: Europa-List: Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/
25
>
[quote="Steven Dumesny"]Totally agree with Erich what a great clean up jo
b.
Also I don't ever recall seeing such pitting on an exhaust valve seat in an
y application, it looks like a chemical reaction?
After reading Mike Busch on engines, [u]I plan to use a bore scope every 10
0 hours[/u], it should pick up these signs earlier, and I can review images
against previous services.
Steve[/quote][/quote]
Found bore scope to be totally useless; except for normal looking crowns an
d honing marks couldn't see s;&@... hence listen to my better judgement tel
ling me to pull the heads off and scrutinise things properly on an unfamili
ar unit.
Lifting the barrels also allows inspection with mirror beneath the piston c
rowns to confirm any excessive long term running temperature issues. Also
allows visual of the camshaft condition.
Read this topic online here:
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fforums.ma
tronics.com%2Fviewtopic.php%3Fp%3D515227%23515227&data=05%7C02%7C%7C72203
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| Subject: | Re: What did you do with your Europa this week 10/01/25 |
<<.....All four exhaust valves exhibited pitted seats (same as recent 914 job)
indicating either hot lean mixtures or acid chemical erosion....>>
'Acid chemical' erosion when stored/hangared/not used with exhaust pipes left unplugged?
What was the storage environment like during its lifetime?
Duncan McF.
> On 16/01/2025 10:40 GMT Area-51 <goldsteinindustrial@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> Job done; my fingers are sore again... ready to box up swap out the 80hp.
>
> This unit scrubbed up great in the end; as good as new, with 700hrs and 4years
TBO remaining. Now just have to replace the few throttle arms and spark plug
caps I raided off a while back for the 80hp in 181.
>
> What was learnt through this process:
>
> The rotax 912ULS-S2 will benefit greatly with a cylinder head service at 1000hrs.
Which will prevent the exhaust valves having to be binned at 2000hrs TBO,
and return the unit to full compression.
>
> Inlet valve stem seals provide inadequate sealing of oil ingress into the inlet
port at 1300hrs, causing carbon build up upon the inlet valve and combustion
chamber. The symptom of this is seen via low compression on one cylinder during
burping as loose bits get trapped under the valve seat. It blows out upon
startup but is indicative inlet valve stem seals are failing.
>
> Rear two cylinders of the 912 ULS-S2 run hotter than the front two cylinders.
This shows up as minor evidence of detonation erosion on the piston crown and
combustion chamber.
>
> For reasons unknown #4 cylinder has had a Sodium "Inlet" Valve fitted.
>
> All four exhaust valves exhibited pitted seats (same as recent 914 job) indicating
either hot lean mixtures or acid chemical erosion. The valves are softer
than the seats.
>
> The pistons crowns in the 912 are very soft material. A head nut dropped from
the barrel stud and fell onto the crown leaving a small indentation; very soft
material.
>
> Now that You have read all that nominal stuff I can discuss cleaning methods...
>
> Firstly you will need "high end laboratory tools" like in the attached pictures.
Secondly, expect to end the task with really sore fingers by the end from
using some of the high end laboratory equipment. The secret to achieving the look
achieved is knowing what materials to use; I will go on...
>
> Ultrasonic cleaning bin; I have 5L and 25L units... This is great, but not that
great for alloy motor bits; darkens the metal. I need to try sewing machine
oil or sulphuric acid and see what the results are. So caustic alkaline fluids
are no good for zinc, or zinc alloys.
>
> Scotch pad; industrial grade "grey"; available in a roll at your local paint
panel trade supplier... I use this with diluted sugar soap to "finish" clean everything
before spray and wipe off with Wurth Rostoff. You will have tired and
sore fingers afterwards if you scrub an entire engine.
>
> Brass brush... used to descale corrosion off the engine exterior.
> Tooth brush... used to scrub exterior of engine
> Stainless brush... used to scrub bits i should be using the brass brush for.
>
> 215 or 225 Aluminium sheet. I use this to create some of the high end laboratory
equipment. It is used to scrape off the piston crown, head ports, combustion
chambers and cylinder wall, and is softer than the piston crown. The edges
need to be kept dressed as you work scraping off the crap. You will have sore
fingers by the end from scraping... Any piece of metal softer than the piston
crown will do the job but you will struggle with lead; mercury would be totally
useless though...
>
> Threaded brass pipe. I use this on the exhaust valve stem as a rasp to get the
tough shit off quickly.
>
> A piece of flat 0.125" 2030 carbon steel. I use this on the exhaust valve to
scrape off the really tough shit.
>
> An oyster shucker. I use this to get the "nothing else will budge it" stuff out
of the exhaust port. Its a delicate light handed job because the oyster shucker
is hardened steel and will ruin a valve seat and slice through a finger instantly
without taking any prisoners.
>
> A piece of TIG welding rod, hammered flat and bent 90deg at one end. This is
one of my favourite tools and is used to extract hydraulic lifters to check their
face condition.
>
> (When lifting the cylinder barrels you may notice three numbers felt tipped onto
the barrel; record these numbers. They are your bore dimensions taken at the
factory during engine assembly)
>
> 3D printer. Used to print the valve spring compressor.
>
> A vacuum cleaner with a high end laboratory attachment such as repurposed piece
of washing machine drainage pipe. Used to extract all the crap from the cylinder
and ring lands, and valve ports as you go and keeps the work area clean.
Wife will scream and be unhappy for a while, but its only momentary...
>
> Air compressor. To blow out any thread bores before bolting up.
>
> (x4) 2" sections of 3/8 fuel hose.. I use this to seal off the cylinder studs
and hold the barrels in place as I work. Screw down two head nuts and you can
roll the motor over while head is off. They can be fun to remove afterwards;
i use pointed pliers to lift them up and off.
>
> Wurth Rostoff... I use this to wash off the scotch brite residue when cleaning
completed. I also skirt a bit into the valve port together with some oil when
lapping in the valves. I use a cordless drill on the top of valve stem; much
quicker than old timer method.
>
> Each head takes about four hours to process. You will have sore fingers by about
midway through the second cylinder onwards.
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=515226#515226
>
>
>
>
> Attachments:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/82f80629_5d6f_431a_988f_def7d1b1ab94_176.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/b54fcbdc_c2cd_4fa8_9cf4_b803bfa19f65_611.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/6720f7f1_9578_4957_bc82_79013a0eef39_210.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/d87e9a48_4dd6_4055_8dac_defd7d3cb284_202.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/7d16fc21_a822_48d0_b575_24980099e944_192.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/633d06b0_3d64_4638_b364_faf73924e59e_153.jpeg
> http://forums.matronics.com//files/12edb5a5_29c3_4410_874b_da8ffb3deac6_191.jpeg
>
>
>
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