---------------------------------------------------------- Glasair-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Fri 06/23/06: 8 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 10:17 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (Craymondw@aol.com) 2. 10:32 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (Konrad L. Werner) 3. 10:34 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (steve korney) 4. 10:39 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (Bruce Gray) 5. 10:42 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (Givan, Max) 6. 10:50 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (frequent flyer) 7. 11:24 AM - Re: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines (Dj Merrill) 8. 01:15 PM - Lycoming: So now we're "licensing" engines? (MPPalmer@aol.com) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 10:17:50 AM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000? ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 10:32:43 AM PST US From: "Konrad L. Werner" Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Cost is directly related to production numbers. More unit's produced and sold = lower cost/unit. But I am sure you knew that already!!! So, why don't YOU put YOUR much lower cost 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system into YOUR airplane instead of that simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets? It just makes sense, doesn't it? do not archive ----- Original Message ----- From: Craymondw@aol.com To: glasair-list@matronics.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000? ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- No virus found in this incoming message. 6/23/2006 ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 10:34:31 AM PST US From: "steve korney" Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines --> Glasair-List message posted by: "steve korney" FAA. attorneys, and judges... Best... Steve ----Original Message Follows---- Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000? ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 10:39:31 AM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines Simple, economics of scale. I would be supprised if Lycoming makes 5,000 new engines a year. Detroit turns out hundreds of thousands. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 1:16 PM Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000? ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 10:42:50 AM PST US From: "Givan, Max" Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines GM does not have to get the FAA to micro manage and approve their every move. I figure that accounts for most of the price difference. Lets stop giving the FAA any more money! The less money they have, the less they can intrude into our lives. With free enterprise and no FAA, our overall flying costs would decrease by at least the 66% we see in this example. Next - the oil companies and producers! ________________________________ [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw@aol.com Sent: Friday, June 23, 2006 10:16 AM Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North Star four over head cam complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and injector system wore out after 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a crated brand new engine. Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000? ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 10:50:42 AM PST US From: frequent flyer Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines --> Glasair-List message posted by: frequent flyer PRODUCT LIABILTY INSURANCE! Jack do not archive --- steve korney wrote: > --> Glasair-List message posted by: "steve korney" > > > FAA. attorneys, and judges... > > Best... Steve > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > Yes, I have one question. When my 325HP V8 North > Star four over head cam > complicated cam drive gear and complex ignition and > injector system wore out > after > 200,000 miles, GM quoted me roughly $10,000 for a > crated brand new engine. > Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, > glorified Volkswagen 4 > cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with > no roller tappets cost > $30,000 > new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to > factory new cost $17,000? > > > > > > > browse > Subscriptions page, > FAQ, > http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Glasair-List > > > Admin. > > > > > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 11:24:47 AM PST US From: Dj Merrill Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Lycoming Thunderbolt Engines --> Glasair-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Bruce Gray wrote: > Simple, economics of scale. I would be supprised if Lycoming makes > 5,000 new engines a year. Detroit turns out hundreds of thousands. > I agree that explains the diff. between the GM and Lyc products. However, presuming his numbers are correct, I am still curious about his actual question, which was "Why is it that a simple, dirty, sloppy tolerances, glorified Volkswagen 4 cylinder Lycoming engine with a cast iron cam with no roller tappets cost $30,000 new and a factory rebuilt engine brought up to factory new cost $17,000?" Why the $13k difference between what is essentially the same end product? Are his numbers correct? -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:15:50 PM PST US From: MPPalmer@aol.com Subject: Glasair-List: Lycoming: So now we're "licensing" engines? Yikes. What schmoozing! (Man, that was one LONG press release.) When Microsoft became a big player in software, the joke going around was "What would it be like if GM sold cars the way Microsoft sells software?" Aside from the ubiquitous "crashing" jokes, you would agree that you could only use the car in certain way; that you wouldn't try to figure out how it worked or modify the car; that it's not really your car anyway and that, if anything goes wrong with "your" car, you can't sue GM. Your only remedy is to give the car back to GM. I was disappointed to see this "licensing" model trickle down to material products when I bought parts from NewGlasair. We had to sign an agreement that the parts weren't really mine, that I would only use them in ways approved by NewGlasair, that I forfeit all legal remedies if the parts were bad, caused a crash, etc. Even if GlasairAviation came out with an improved Glasair that was 30 kts faster, I wouldn't buy it with a licensing agreement. So now Lycoming is going this way with some of their Thunderbolt engines? You can only sell an engine with Lycoming's permission? So really, it's not your engine, it's Lycoming's. They're just letting you borrow it. We gotta get some common sense back on property rights and personal responsibility. When I buy a hammer, it's my hammer. I can use it to nail as many nails as I want at my house or anyone else's. I can give it or sell it to anyone I choose or use it in ways never approved by its manufacturer. (As a weapon, for example, should a bad guy break into the house.) So, no thanks Lycoming. I'll buy parts from Superior or ECi that are MY parts. (And I won't have to wade through a pile of stuff when dealing with them.) BTW, if Lycoming is really interested in the Voice of the Customer, it might want to offer an 800 number for its Thunderbolt Manager. Mike Palmer <><