---------------------------------------------------------- Glasair-List Digest Archive --- Total Messages Posted Tue 09/05/06: 16 ---------------------------------------------------------- Today's Message Index: ---------------------- 1. 01:10 PM - Re: Glasair-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/04/06 (Craymondw@aol.com) 2. 01:12 PM - Re: Glasair-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/03/06 (Craymondw@aol.com) 3. 01:16 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Craymondw@aol.com) 4. 01:23 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Craymondw@aol.com) 5. 01:38 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Kevin Williams) 6. 01:39 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Bruce Gray) 7. 01:44 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Dj Merrill) 8. 01:45 PM - Re: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/04/06 (Dj Merrill) 9. 01:51 PM - Re: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/03/06 (Dj Merrill) 10. 01:55 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Dj Merrill) 11. 02:04 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Kevin Williams) 12. 02:35 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Bruce Gray) 13. 05:36 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (noel anderson) 14. 05:51 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Craymondw@aol.com) 15. 06:28 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Craymondw@aol.com) 16. 08:25 PM - Re: Sportsman 2+2 (Steve Kean) ________________________________ Message 1 _____________________________________ Time: 01:10:37 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Glasair-List: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/04/06 Why doesn't Glasair design a high performance plane like the Legacy and sell it at a cheaper price? I can't understand anyone going through the expense and pain of building a plane that doesn't far out perform a factory built plane. ________________________________ Message 2 _____________________________________ Time: 01:12:57 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Glasair-List: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/03/06 The so called "passion" of building a plane completetly wears out and 90% of the kits are never completed. ________________________________ Message 3 _____________________________________ Time: 01:16:14 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 I once asked the owner of Van's aircraft why his kits are so cheap. His reply was why was everyone else's kits where so expensive! ________________________________ Message 4 _____________________________________ Time: 01:23:55 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. ________________________________ Message 5 _____________________________________ Time: 01:38:32 PM PST US From: "Kevin Williams" Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 --> Glasair-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" Kevin Yellowknife, Northwest Territories, Canada All excellent points. From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. ________________________________ Message 6 _____________________________________ Time: 01:39:48 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 Perhaps you just don't have the economic muscle or persistance to be a kit builder. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. ________________________________ Message 7 _____________________________________ Time: 01:44:56 PM PST US Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 From: Dj Merrill --> Glasair-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Craymondw@aol.com wrote: > I once asked the owner of Van's aircraft why his kits are so cheap. > His reply was why was everyone else's kits where so expensive! > * > * Van's doesn't sell an airplane that matches what I want. Somehow I can't see an RV-10 on floats or landing on a rough short strip... :-) -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 8 _____________________________________ Time: 01:45:59 PM PST US Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 1 Msgs - 09/04/06 From: Dj Merrill --> Glasair-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Craymondw@aol.com wrote: > Why doesn't Glasair design a high performance plane like the Legacy > and sell it at a cheaper price? I can't understand anyone going > through the expense and pain of building a plane that doesn't far out > perform a factory built plane. Because it is not all about performance. -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 9 _____________________________________ Time: 01:51:08 PM PST US Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Re: Glasair-List Digest: 7 Msgs - 09/03/06 From: Dj Merrill --> Glasair-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Craymondw@aol.com wrote: > The so called "passion" of building a plane completetly wears out and > 90% of the kits are never completed. I think that it used to be a high number (but I'm not convinced it was 90%), but with today's pre-punched kits, things go together a lot easier. The kit may not be completed by the original purchaser, but I think we are seeing a much higher completion rate of kit airplanes today than we did 10 years ago, even if the kit changes hands a couple of times. I'm in the process of selling my flying Glasair 1 FT in order to devote my time and money to completing the Sportsman kit. I might be nuts, but I know I can't afford both, and the Sportsman represents the type of flying I want to do compared to the Glasair, FWIW. -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 10 ____________________________________ Time: 01:55:34 PM PST US Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 From: Dj Merrill --> Glasair-List message posted by: Dj Merrill Craymondw@aol.com wrote: > The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that > homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU > at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these > expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the > boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually > bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. *shrug* So perhaps the Thorpe is a better choice for you as a kitplane. A friend of mine is building a Sonex due to its relatively low cost. I don't think any more or less of him because he isn't building a Glasair Aviation product. There are enough different types of kitplanes out there to satisfy most everyone's needs/wants. Now, when there is a kit that is both a car and an airplane, I might have to seriously reconsider my selection! *grin* -Dj do not archive -- Dj Merrill - N1JOV Glastar Sportsman 2+2 Builder #7118 http://econ.duke.edu/~deej/sportsman/ "Many things that are unexplainable happen during the construction of an airplane." --Dave Prizio, 30 Aug 2005 ________________________________ Message 11 ____________________________________ Time: 02:04:35 PM PST US From: "Kevin Williams" Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 --> Glasair-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" What kind of pathetic insult is that? Economic muscle? Maybe the next e-mail will poke fun at my small manhood. Please, try and be a bit more intelligent in your debate and responses. $40,000 for a bare bones kit is steep in my opinion and it has nothing to do with how much money I have to spend, it has to do with $40,000 not being reflective of what you get which is a bit of fiberglass and tubing. Compare what type of car you could buy for $40,000 and you begin to see what I mean. In reality the kit has maybe $5000-$7000 worth of material. Even if the price was doubled to $14000 for a nice heft profit margin it still doesn't come close to the sticker price. I'm not pooh poohing on kits, I like kits. I'm suggesting that if kit builders continue to raise prices then sooner or later people will be faced with the same situation as factory aircraft and that is a plane that is just to cost prohibitive to build. Saving money on maintenance is irrelevant if you cant afford to start or finish the kit. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. ________________________________ Message 12 ____________________________________ Time: 02:35:22 PM PST US From: "Bruce Gray" Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 --> Glasair-List message posted by: "Bruce Gray" If you have to ask the price, you can't afford to play. As a general rule of thumb, any manufacturer has to charge 3 times the cost of finished goods to stay in business. That's without covering all the R&D money it takes to develop the product. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Williams Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 5:04 PM Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 --> Glasair-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" What kind of pathetic insult is that? Economic muscle? Maybe the next e-mail will poke fun at my small manhood. Please, try and be a bit more intelligent in your debate and responses. $40,000 for a bare bones kit is steep in my opinion and it has nothing to do with how much money I have to spend, it has to do with $40,000 not being reflective of what you get which is a bit of fiberglass and tubing. Compare what type of car you could buy for $40,000 and you begin to see what I mean. In reality the kit has maybe $5000-$7000 worth of material. Even if the price was doubled to $14000 for a nice heft profit margin it still doesn't come close to the sticker price. I'm not pooh poohing on kits, I like kits. I'm suggesting that if kit builders continue to raise prices then sooner or later people will be faced with the same situation as factory aircraft and that is a plane that is just to cost prohibitive to build. Saving money on maintenance is irrelevant if you can't afford to start or finish the kit. Bruce www.glasair.org -----Original Message----- From: owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Craymondw@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:24 PM Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these expensive kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. I feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of many of these high price kit companies. ________________________________ Message 13 ____________________________________ Time: 05:36:01 PM PST US From: "noel anderson" Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 --> Glasair-List message posted by: "noel anderson" Bruce. Well said!!! It's the old saying," Make sure brain is engaged, before opperating mouth"!!! Regards to all. Noel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kevin Williams" Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 9:04 AM Subject: RE: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 > --> Glasair-List message posted by: "Kevin Williams" > > > What kind of pathetic insult is that? Economic muscle? Maybe the next > e-mail will poke fun at my small manhood. Please, try and be a bit more > intelligent in your debate and responses. > > $40,000 for a bare bones kit is steep in my opinion and it has nothing to > do with how much money I have to spend, it has to do with $40,000 not > being reflective of what you get which is a bit of fiberglass and tubing. > > Compare what type of car you could buy for $40,000 and you begin to see > what I mean. > > In reality the kit has maybe $5000-$7000 worth of material. Even if the > price was doubled to $14000 for a nice heft profit margin it still doesn't > come close to the sticker price. > > I'm not pooh poohing on kits, I like kits. I'm suggesting that if kit > builders continue to raise prices then sooner or later people will be > faced with the same situation as factory aircraft and that is a plane that > is just to cost prohibitive to build. > > Saving money on maintenance is irrelevant if you can't afford to start or > finish the kit. > > > Bruce > www.glasair.org > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com > [mailto:owner-glasair-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of > Craymondw@aol.com > Sent: Tuesday, September 05, 2006 4:24 PM > To: glasair-list@matronics.com > Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 > > > The designer of the T-18 aircraft, designed that plane to prove that > homebuilder's could easily build a high performance plane using a GPU at > very a reasonable price. I often felt it was Thorpe and not these > expensive > kit manufacturers that gave the home builder movement the boost it needed. > I > feel these sky high kit prices will eventually bring about the collapse of > many of these high price kit companies. > > > -- > > ________________________________ Message 14 ____________________________________ Time: 05:51:25 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 I built an Oshkosh winning Glasair and I completed it in ten months...so kiss my sweet a.... ________________________________ Message 15 ____________________________________ Time: 06:28:16 PM PST US From: Craymondw@aol.com Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 Dear Bruce Gray, Read the "Millionaire Next Door" and tell me that self made millionaires don't ever ask the price! Only a fool would never ask the price. If no one asked the price, one could charge anything they want. First of all you need a course in public relations because with smart ass replies like yours Glasair corporation will certainly fail. You have no idea how much wealth me and my family has or any one else for that matter. Secondly, I completed my Glasair in 1991 and had close to $95,000 in it and have since averaged twenty vacations a year in the plane with our most recent flight from Atlanta to Durango Colorado. My wife and I surpass the yearly time flown a year by the average aircraft owner in just in a few weeks time. My brother and I are now looking into the feasibility of building a landing strip on 350 family owned acres in the Washington, DC suburbs. My other toys at the time of completion was an unlimited S1S Pitts Special and a brand new Porsche and my wife now gets to ride around in a Ferrari F430 Spider. ________________________________ Message 16 ____________________________________ Time: 08:25:41 PM PST US From: "Steve Kean" Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 Sorry I kicked the "kit-cost" tire. Just wanted to see who's out there! ----- Original Message ----- From: Craymondw@aol.com To: glasair-list@matronics.com Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 3:51 AM Subject: Re: Glasair-List: Sportsman 2+2 I built an Oshkosh winning Glasair and I completed it in ten months...so kiss my sweet a....