Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 11:14 AM - Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Chris In Madison)
2. 01:04 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Sid Hausding)
3. 01:18 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Dale Fultz)
4. 01:26 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Chris In Madison)
5. 02:24 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Sid Hausding)
6. 02:40 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Chris In Madison)
7. 03:04 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Dale Fultz)
8. 03:29 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (David Bridgham)
9. 04:15 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (jam-n)
10. 06:06 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Chris In Madison)
11. 06:47 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Sid Hausding)
12. 07:33 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (Steve Eldredge)
13. 07:35 PM - Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum (jimcarriere)
Message 1
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| Subject: | Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Hello all,
I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have found
several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in the 2500 lbs.
gross range. One is tube/fabric and the others are all-aluminum craft. I'm
purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this discussion.
At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had presumed that
this was the way I would go. But now that I've seen tube/fabric, I'm wondering
why either of these competing design philosophies would be any more/less beneficial
than the other. Web searches on the subject reveal little useful information,
although I might not be searching with the proper terminology.
Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft?
I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.
Thanks and best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67176#67176
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
Chris,=0AYou are going to find its just like any other endeavor being the c
osts, the availabiltiy of parts and materials, your talents and tooling, sp
ace to build, and how it will be used or stored (hangared). Get out to an
EAA chapter and look and talk to some builders and or visit their home shop
s to see the difference in the building methods and maybe do a hands on pra
ctice with both methods. Some of the aluminum kits have a builders weekend
you can enter for exposure too. Keep what you build as the starter on the
project you may chose............Price usually doesn't enter in if you mak
e up your mind on one kit over the other.=0A=0ASid=0Alet us know which way
you are leaning with names of brands and or manufacturers. You won't step
on toes or hurt feelings..........=0A----------------------------=0A =0A"Wh
y can't we all just get along?"=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFr
om: Chris In Madison <cowens@cnw.com>=0ATo: homebuilt-list@matronics.com=0A
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 2:13:45 PM=0ASubject: Homebuilt-List: Pro
s and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum=0A=0A=0A--> Homebuilt-
List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>=0A=0AHello all,
=0A=0AI've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and h
ave found several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in
the 2500 lbs. gross range. One is tube/fabric and the others are all-alum
inum craft. I'm purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this disc
ussion.=0A=0AAt first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I h
ad presumed that this was the way I would go. But now that I've seen tube/
fabric, I'm wondering why either of these competing design philosophies wou
ld be any more/less beneficial than the other. Web searches on the subject
reveal little useful information, although I might not be searching with t
he proper terminology.=0A=0AWould any of you care to share your opinions on
aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft? I'm open to any and all thoughts on th
e subject.=0A=0AThanks and best regards,=0AChris=0A=0A--------=0AChris Owen
s=0AWaunakee, WI=0A=0A=0A=0A=0ARead this topic online here:=0A=0Ahttp://for
===================0A=0A
Message 3
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
Sid,,,, I would say he is comparing the bearhawk and the Murphy moose.
Been down the road... Dale
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
A good guess :-)
And you can add the Dream Aircraft Tundra and BushCaddy L-164B to your list as
well.
But the primary question remains, regardless of which plane manufacturer it is,
are there benefits to one form over the other (all aluminum vs. tube/fabric).
Their overall prices are in the same range, gross weights and empty weights
are similar, fuel capacity nearly the same, and engine choices in the same ballpark.
So those things being equal, what else is there to consider?
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67196#67196
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
Those are both monster machines for a first time builder.........maybe he s
hould be looking at the Zenith 701/801 and an Avid or Kitfox...........?=0A
=0ASid=0A--------------------=0A =0A"Why can't we all just get along?"=0A
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dale Fultz <dfultz7@earthlink.
net>=0ATo: homebuilt-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006
4:17:24 PM=0ASubject: Re: Homebuilt-List: Pros and cons of tube/fabric air
craft over all aluminum=0A=0A=0ASid,,,, I would say he is comparing the bea
=========================0A
==================0A=0A
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
All good options and are under consideration should a larger aircraft be too expensive
to build or insure. The aircraft you suggested as potential build candidates
fall into those two categories referenced in the original question, all
aluminum and tube/fabric.
Which still begs the question, what are the benefits of one kind of construction
over the other?
Perhaps now you understand why I purposely left out the manufacturers in the first
post. This might be the reason I just ordered Ron Wanttaja's "Kit Airplane
Construction" from Amazon :-)
I appreciate your insights :-)
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67208#67208
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
Sid,, The Moose is a big undertaking for the first time builder, I am a
first time builder and just about through the process. If I hadn't
changed the landing gear around to a trigear set up rather then
taildragger I would probably be done by now and flying, but glad I did
it now that it starting to look like an airplane. I wouldn't be as far
as I am without help from guys on list like this and others, I really
have to thank the guys that have taken time to answer my email questions
when I had them.. I try to return the favor now for others when I can..
Dale
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: David Bridgham <dab@froghouse.org>
At Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:13:45 -0700,
"Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com> wrote:
>
> Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum
> vs. tube/fabric aircraft? I'm open to any and all thoughts on the
> subject.
Sure, I'll spout my opinions. The short form is that I'm a fan of
tube and fabric. I think it's stronger for the weight and much easier
to repair. I don't know if a fabric plane is easier to build for a
homebuilder but I susupect it may be, especially given a kit where the
frame comes all welded.
The generally espoused downsides to fabric are that it has a shorter
lifespan and a fabric plane MUST be in a hangar. Yeah, fabric
probably is not likely to last as long as aluminum but they're saying
15 to 20 years for modern fabrics and I believe 15 is quite feasible.
At the recover time though, you get to go through the plane from stem
to stern and fix anything and everything that looks dubious. You can
have essentially a new airframe. I've heard of people reskinning an
aluminum plane and I can't imagine the effort involved.
As for requiring a hangar, I don't think there's so much difference
there. Yeah, it'll shorten the lifespan of the fabric some to be
outside but you can do it. My Maule has 8 year old fabric on it.
It's been outside the last few summers but I've managed to find hangar
space each winter. I just signed a lease on a new hangar this morning
so I'm pleased about that prospect. From the looks of the fabric
there's no reason it won't still be on the plane in another 8 or 12
years.
-Dave
Message 9
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: jam-n <jghunter@nol.net>
have you seen any tube and fabric aircraft traveling over 200 mph, for
example... :)
On 10/11/2006, "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com> wrote:
>--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
>
>Hello all,
>
>I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have found
several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in the 2500 lbs.
gross range. One is tube/fabric and the others are all-aluminum craft. I'm
purposely leaving out any manufacturer names for this discussion.
>
>At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had presumed that
this was the way I would go. But now that I've seen tube/fabric, I'm wondering
why either of these competing design philosophies would be any more/less beneficial
than the other. Web searches on the subject reveal little useful information,
although I might not be searching with the proper terminology.
>
>Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric aircraft?
I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.
>
>Thanks and best regards,
>Chris
>
>--------
>Chris Owens
>Waunakee, WI
>
>
>Read this topic online here:
>
>http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67176#67176
>
>
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison" <cowens@cnw.com>
Thanks for your thoughts, Dave. I've heard from a couple of other sources as well
that tube & fabric are easier to repair. That's definitely a benefit. I
suppose if you bend the tubing, it being steel makes it a bit easier to bend back
without fracturing (within limits). I'd also heard the same comments regarding
strength of the steel airframe. Come recovering time, as you'd mentioned,
it definitely gives you a chance to inspect everything. I hadn't thought about
that. Good insight :-) The longevity of the fabric is certainly a concern.
I'll look more into that as well.
I do like the Maules. Some recent used models are even cheaper to buy than build
something similar, I'm noticing.
Good point, Mr. Hunter, regarding speed. Can't say that I've seen a super-fast
fabric aircraft :-)
As for the Moose builder, I'm intrigued by the tri-gear setup you described. Any
pictures following the history of this modification? I'd love to see them.
When I talked to Mr. Murphy at Oshkosh this year, he'd mentioned the the upcoming
Yukon is essentially a 2500 lb. Moose, and tri-gear is an option. I'll
be interested to see their demo plane at SnF or Oshosh next year.
Thanks again for all of your opinions. Feel free to continue if you have further
insight to share.
Best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67254#67254
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
If he reads this it will assist him too. Glad to hear you are on the downh
ill slide and might finish.....go for it.=0A=0ASid=0Aup north in Michigan w
ith snow on the way............=0A =0A"Why can't we all just get along?"=0A
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0AFrom: Dale Fultz <dfultz7@earthlink.
net>=0ATo: homebuilt-list@matronics.com=0ASent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006
6:03:03 PM=0ASubject: Re: Homebuilt-List: Pros and cons of tube/fabric air
craft over all aluminum=0A=0A=0ASid,, The Moose is a big undertaking for th
e first time builder, I am a first time builder and just about through the
process. If I hadn't changed the landing gear around to a trigear set up ra
ther then taildragger I would probably be done by now and flying, but glad
I did it now that it starting to look like an airplane. I wouldn't be as fa
r as I am without help from guys on list like this and others, I really hav
e to thank the guys that have taken time to answer my email questions when
I had them.. I try to return the favor now for others when I can.. Dale
========================0A=0A
Message 12
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| Subject: | Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Steve Eldredge" <steve@byu.edu>
It will finally come down to a few things.
Which do you prefer?
Which medium do you want to gain skills, and tool up for?
Will you hangar or not?
Repairablity.
Fabric and welding are easy, but take lots of time, offer very good
repairabilty, and periodic inspection during recover. Fabric will last
20 years or more if hangared. I prefer tube and fabric because I think
it looks better. Aluminum can't make sweeping curves or round out
corners nearly as easily as Aluminum. I prefer the Bearhawk, and will
probably build one after my Stinson.
Aluminum on the other hand also offers ease of workability, but isn't as
readily repaired in the field. (not with duct tape anyway) it
obviously is a tried and true material, has good strength and corrosion
resistance and will last a long time outside (though other airplane
parts will suffer, instrumentation, interior, windows) You will dent it
before you poke a hole in it.
I prefer the Bearhawk, and will probably build one after my Stinson. It
has both tube, fabric, and aluminum. You get to tool up and learn both
skills.
Thems my thoughts.
Steve E
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-homebuilt-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-homebuilt-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Chris In
Madison
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:14 PM
Subject: Homebuilt-List: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all
aluminum
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "Chris In Madison"
<cowens@cnw.com>
Hello all,
I've been doing a lot of research on the various kits available and have
found several that meet my needs for a four-seat, high-wing aircraft in
the 2500 lbs. gross range. One is tube/fabric and the others are
all-aluminum craft. I'm purposely leaving out any manufacturer names
for this discussion.
At first, the aluminum aircraft were all that I'd seen and I had
presumed that this was the way I would go. But now that I've seen
tube/fabric, I'm wondering why either of these competing design
philosophies would be any more/less beneficial than the other. Web
searches on the subject reveal little useful information, although I
might not be searching with the proper terminology.
Would any of you care to share your opinions on aluminum vs. tube/fabric
aircraft? I'm open to any and all thoughts on the subject.
Thanks and best regards,
Chris
--------
Chris Owens
Waunakee, WI
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67176#67176
Message 13
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| Subject: | Re: Pros and cons of tube/fabric aircraft over all aluminum |
--> Homebuilt-List message posted by: "jimcarriere" <jimcarriere@yahoo.com>
It's going back a few years, but the original Hawker Hurricane was a 300mph tube
and fabric airplane :)
If there is a must-read for the first time buider, Ron Wantajja's book is a strong
candidate. The only problem might be that by the time you're done reading
it, you may not only be considering pro/con tube and fabric vs aluminum, but
composite and even wood too.
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=67270#67270
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