Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:08 AM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Clive James)
2. 06:07 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (N1BZRich@aol.com)
3. 06:52 AM - Re: Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Andy Silvester)
4. 08:04 AM - Re: JabiruEngine cooling (T. Graziano)
5. 09:52 AM - Re: Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Matt & Jo)
6. 11:01 AM - Re: Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 12:15 PM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Gilles Thesee)
8. 08:10 PM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Matt & Jo)
Message 1
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| Subject: | RE: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Hi Matt and Paul, =0A =0APaul's summed up the issues and I've already wired
my latest Jabiru as he has recommended. =0A=0AThe only issue he didn't men
tion is starter solenoid sticking.=0A=0AWhat do you do in the unlikely even
t that the starter solenoid (contactor/relay) sticks closed? =0A=0AWith the
master contactor powering everything you merely open the master and all go
es quiet. If the starter solenoid is wired direct you can't do this. A 'sta
rter engaged warning light' powered from the starter feed is also a good id
ea to warn you off this problem.=0A=0ARegards, Clive=0A=0AP.S. I've sent my
latest wiring diagram to you direct for information. If you see anything w
rong with it let me know!=0A=0ASend instant messages to your online friends
http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
In a message dated 12/7/2006 3:09:53 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
zcrj90@yahoo.co.uk writes:
P.S. I've sent my latest wiring diagram to you direct for information. If
you see anything wrong with it let me know!
Clive,
Would you mind sharing your wiring diagram with our EAA Chapter. We are
building a 601XL and are about ready to hang the engine for the final time.
It is in my hangar and I hope to make the initial flight sometime relatively
soon.
Blue Skies,
Buz
Message 3
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| Subject: | Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Matt,
As others have said, you want to have the Jabiru-supplied solenoid
(contactor) wired only for the engine starter. The starter will pull up
to
700 amps on initial contact and if there's any additional resistance in
the
starter circuit it will degrade starting performance. If you want to fit
a
master relay for other panel power, keep it separate.
Hope this helps, Andy
Suncoast Sportplanes, Inc.
39248 South Ave. Zephyrhills, FL 33542
Tel: 813 779 2324 Fax: 813 779 2246
www.suncoastjabiru.com
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com
[mailto:owner-jabiruengine-list-server@matronics.com] On Behalf Of Matt
& Jo
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 9:55 PM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid
I have a Jabiru 3300 and have a 702-1 starter contactor from B&C. I
have a
question about the solenoid supplied with the Jabiru. I am considering
just
hooking up the 702-1 contactor directly to the starter. It looks like
the
"solenoid" supplied by Jabiru is really just another contactor. It is
wired
and works the same as the 702-1 but with out the diode. I am planning
on
hooking up the contactor similar to what is depicted in aeroelectric
Z-20.
There it has the lead off of the 702-1 contactor hooked to the Jabiru
solenoid. It sure looks to me that all I will be doing is putting two
contactors in series. I am not sure of the value in this. I am
considering
just leaving off the Jabiru solenoid and connecting the 702-1 directly
to
the starter.
Is this smart or is there something I am missing?
Thanks
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine cooling |
Rick,
>From my archives,
see below.
Tony Graziano
Zodiac 601XL/Jab3300A SN33A644, N493TG 179 hrs
Submitted By:
charles.long@gm.com
Email List:
Zenith-List
Name:
Charles F. Long
Date:
Oct 23 2005
Subject:
Cooling improvements on the Zenith 601HDS w/Jabiru 3300
Description:
During my first few hours of flight, I experienced elevated cylinder
head temperatures on my Zenith 601HDS with Jabiru 3300A engine. Also had
issues with Exhaust Gas Temperature imbalance at full throttle. The
following is a summary of changes made to improve the situation. This really
just builds on the recommendations of Jabiru and Zenith to provide plenty of
cooling for the 6 cylinder engine. I would like to thank Jeff Small, Fred
Hulen, Stan Challgren as well as Pete Krotje at US Jabiru and Andy Sylvester
at Sun Coast for their contributions. As a place to start, US Jabiru
provides some good cooling suggestions at their website:
My aircraft has the following modifications:
1) Fuel Economy Carb Kit as supplied by Jabiru.
2) Gull wing baffles between cylinders as recommended by Jabiru
3) Full deflectors angled down between the spark plugs of cylinder #5
& #6 as recommended by Jabiru.
4) Smaller deflectors angled down between the spark plugs of #3 & #4.
These middle cylinder deflectors usually need some tuning. Would suggest
starting with 3/4" tall. On #3, I stayed at 3/4", on #4 ended up trimming
down to 1/2".
5) The inlet to the ram air ducts has a gap between the duct and the
cylinders at the bottom. This allows air to escape downward without doing
any useful work. I added some .025" aluminum plates that butt up against
cylinder's #1 & #2 to prevent this from happening. To reduce the over
cooling of the front two cylinders and force more air upward to the rear
cylinders, I angled the material upward about an 2-3. The exact height
needs to be determined by trial end error. The new XL cowl has openings that
are quite small and located high on the cylinders. My modification attempts
to duplicate the XL cowl openings and seems to work quite well. At the
onset, this change appears to be counter-intuitive. Just keep it mind, the
goal is to get as much use out of every air molecule as possible!
6) Small baffles mounted between valve tappet covers. This prevents
more air from escaping without doing any useful work.
7) There is a temptation to add an L angle to the bottom rear of each
ram duct. I tried this change and it elevated my temps rather than reducing
them.
8) The oil cooler inlet is keep quite small to allow more air to find
it's way through the cylinders. I ended up with about a 1.75" x 4.00"
opening. The Jabiru website provides a good discussion on this. I tried a
much bigger opening as can be seen in the picture and it provided very
little benefit.
9) Don't forget to keep your oil level midway between the Full and Add
mark. Jabiru indicates that overfilling can cause high oil temps.
My #1 cylinder was running much cooler than the #2 cylinder with
identical intake openings. I rotated the bottom of the carb 5-10 degrees
towards #1 and that took care of it. The main jet feeds the carb at the
bottom so if the carb is tilted, it can direct more fuel towards one bank of
cylinders than the other.
At full throttle, EGT's from left to right bank were 150 F different.
I suspected that air entering the carb through the 90 degree intake elbow
was piling up on the outside of the curve. I installed a vertical divider in
the elbow to keep left side air separated from the right side air. This
worked beautifully. My EGT's are now balanced within roughly 50 F at all
throttle settings including WOT. The divider was fabricated out of a piece
of 6061T6 aluminum - 5.25" x 3" x .016". The upper and lower edges were
rolled around a 1/16" cable to add stiffness and prevent cutting of the
rubber elbow. Finished height is just slightly over 2.25 inches so it fits
snuggly within the elbow. After rolling the edges, the part was bent 90
degrees to fit the elbow contour by wrapping around a 2" diameter plastic
pipe. After it springs back, you end up with a 2" bend radius whichis
equivalent to the center radius of the elbow. Once the part is finished, the
cable can be removed (prevents a potential corrosion issue). The rubber
elbow is quite pliable in the free state, so the flow divider installs quite
easily. After installation, the divider is trapped pretty well in all
directions.
With the Aid of my Engine Information System from Grand Rapids
Technology, I was able to monitor my progress for each Cylinder Head
Temperature: I now have the following readings at 60 F ambient temperature
(my engine has 28 hours TT, so temps have fallen after break-in):
--------------------------------------------------------------------
RPM IAS CHT1 CHT2 CHT3 CHT4 CHT5 CHT6 EGT5 EGT6
--------------------------------------------------------------------
2600 110 247 228 259 247 272 245 1465 1423
2700 120 242 221 253 239 265 240 1486 1451
2800 125 242 226 252 242 265 244 1512 1498
2900 130 253 246 260 260 268 262 1482 1538
WOT 138 288 293 293 298 301 297 1463 1482
--------------------------------------------------------------------
This was a quickie test and temps/speeds were not totally stabilized.
Oil temps varied from 200-230F depending on Throttle setting. This is an
area where a NACA inlet could improve Oil Cooler efficiency. The new XL cowl
incorporates one of these. The Flight Test was run at 3500 ft MSL and an
ambient of 60F. Wheel pants and gear fairings are installed with an
otherwise stock airframe.
The Jabiru is running very nice. I'm happy with the installation,
power and smoothness after getting through these initial teething problems.
Fuel burn at lower cruise settings is estimated at a miserly 4 gph. With the
fat wing, I suspect fuel burn will go way up at the higher cruise speeds.
Chuck Long
Zodiac 601HDS
N601LE, 28 hr TT
=Big5BQmV0d2VlbiBDeWxpbmRlci5qcGc==.jpg
Photo 1
=Big5BT2lsIENvb2xlciBPcGVuaW5nLkpQRw===.jpg
Photo 2
=Big5BUmFtIER1Y3QgRGVmbGVjdG9yLmpwZw===.jpg
Photo 3
=Big5BUmlnaHQgUmFtIER1Y3QuSlBH=.jpg
Photo 4
=Big5BVmVydGljYWwgRmxvdyBEaXZpZGVyLkpQRw===.jpg
Photo 5
---------------
> Time: 06:47:53 AM PST US
> From: "rick tedford" <rick.tedford@sympatico.ca>
> Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: RE: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
> 12/02/06
>
>
> Hello ET : I had similar problems , but , when I purchased the cowl from
> JabUSA my cht,s went down substantially . I now run at about 250F.on #6
> and
> with very little variation on the others .
> My original cowl came from Aus.and I was not happy with same .
> Hope this helps
> Rick
> DO NOT ARCHIVE
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "E.T.Gmerek" <jptook@jptook.cnc.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 4:15 AM
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: RE: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 0 Msgs -
> 12/02/06
>
>
>> <jptook@jptook.cnc.net>
>>
>>
>> I'm new to the Jabiru Engine list, and have just acquired a 601 XL with
>> a 3300A Jabiru Engine, Serial # 33A641. The plane still has 14 hours of
>> its mandated 40 to be flown off in the Houston, TX, area. Can other
>> XL/Jabiru 3300A owners give me an idea of their CHTs? This airplane is
>> showing 366F on the number 6 cylinder, Grand Rapids EIS. The builder
>> added the carburetor economy change. The plane has the standard
>> Zenith/Jabiru FWF cowling and 'air leaks' have been plugged with foam.
>> It has the carbon Sensenich prop. The high temp does not occur during
>> climb out but when throttled back to ~2750 and also does not cool down
>> on descent/approach for landing. As I am about 1500 miles from the plane
>> at this time, I retained an A&P to attempt to resolve the issue through
>> baffling. The previous owner/builder tried relocating the carburetor
>> slightly at the suggestion of Jabiru, and has played with baffling to no
>> avail. I am aware that at approximately 26 to 30 hours run time that the
>> engine may not be fully broken in. Oil change and re-torque of the heads
>> occurred at 25 hours. I would appreciate any information XL/Jab owners
>> might have regarding their maximum CHT temps, especially #6.
>>
>> Along the same line, have any 3300A owners gone to an AeroCarb over the
>> Bing for mixture control/lower EGT/CHT Temps?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ed
>>
>>
>> --
>> 11:50 AM
>>
>>
Message 5
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| Subject: | Re: Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Thanks for the reply. I probably didn't explain my question correctly.
I have been using the Aeroelectric semantics for my basic set up.
Follow this link to my schematic
http://www.zodiacxl.com/Electrical.html
I have a continuous duty contact (701-1 from B&C
http://www.bandcspecialty.com ) as my battery contactor and the 702-1
intermittent contactor as my starter contactor. The Aeroelectric
(http://www.aeroelectric.com/ ) figure for the Jabiru (Figure Z-20)
shows the starter contactor energizing the Jabiru "Solenoid". But the
Jabiru solenoid is set up the same and looks functionally similar to the
702-1 contactor. I have the specs on the 702-1 but nothing on the
Jabiru solenoid. I am planning on just using the 702-1 and hooking it
up to the starter. What I think happened with the Jabiru hook up from
Aeroelectric is that they didn't have the current Jabiru solenoid in
mind when they came up with their layout for the Jabiru (Figure Z-20).
It looks like they just have the two contactors in series which does not
make sense to me for the starter part of the circuit.
Thanks for the help
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: Paul Mulwitz
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 06, 2006 10:10 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Fw: Jabiru Starter contactor and
solenoid
Hi Matt,
I'm no expert on Jabiru or engines in general, but I was an electrical
engineer for many years. So, take my suggestion as a starting point
rather than a final word . . .
I think the point of the battery contactor on an airplane is to shut
down all electrical power for fire prevention (well, almost prevention)
in case of a forced landing. It is also nice for stopping an electrical
fire.
The starter solenoid (technically, it is a relay since its purpose is
to switch electricity rather than perform a mechanical function) is in
place to allow switching of the huge current needed to start the engine.
You will not find a panel mounted switch that will switch more than 20
or 30 amps, and I think starters can use more like 100 amps. So the way
to think of the starter solenoid is to consider it a switch extension
for the starter current.
These are two completely different functions that cannot be combined
in one switch. I would suggest the "Battery Master" contactor be
installed near the battery (wherever it winds up being installed. The
starter solenoid should be installed with either a separate cable to the
battery or to the master contactor output. It shouldn't matter if it is
directly connected to the battery since it won't get any power unless
the starter swtich on the instrument panel is activated. Similarly, it
can work through the master contactor just as well as with a direct
battery connection. The difference will only be really noticeable if
you have to run an additional heavy cable from the engine compartment to
the battery if it is installed in the rear portion of the plane.
If you study the specifications for both of these components you will
probably find the starter solenoid is only meant to be turned on for
short periods while the master contactor is meant to be turned on for
many hours at a time. These are not interchangeable parts.
If my guess is correct, the diode is meant to clamp the coil on the
solenoid. This prevents the natural tendency of any coil to increase
its voltage in attempt to continue current flow when the circuit is
opened. The diode will prevent high voltage (perhaps very high voltage)
from appearing on the battery circuit when the starter is turned off.
Some planes are equipped with an "Avionics Master" switch which also
deals with this kind of problem, but the diode is a lot smaller and less
expensive to install. I would recommend putting power diodes on both
solenoid/contactors. They are installed to be inactive when power is
applied for normal function between the two sides of the coil.
Good luck,
Paul
Still working on airframe - engine to follow soon . . .
At 06:54 PM 12/6/2006, you wrote:
I have a Jabiru 3300 and have a 702-1 starter contactor from B&C. I
have a question about the solenoid supplied with the Jabiru. I am
considering just hooking up the 702-1 contactor directly to the starter.
It looks like the "solenoid" supplied by Jabiru is really just another
contactor. It is wired and works the same as the 702-1 but with out the
diode. I am planning on hooking up the contactor similar to what is
depicted in aeroelectric Z-20. There it has the lead off of the 702-1
contactor hooked to the Jabiru solenoid. It sure looks to me that all
I will be doing is putting two contactors in series. I am not sure of
the value in this. I am considering just leaving off the Jabiru
solenoid and connecting the 702-1 directly to the starter.
Is this smart or is there something I am missing?
Thanks
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: RE: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Hi Clive,
I took a quick look at your wiring diagram. This is the first time I
have actually seen one for a plane, so many things were new to me.
First, let me say the diodes are correctly wired up for the solenoid
and relay. If you put these in backwards, they will probably blow
out as soon as the battery is connected due to very large current and
no fuse. That suggests the idea that a fuse for the actuator coil
circuit would be in order. I have no idea how much current might be
conducted through the coil since there is no load resistor for this
DC circuit. There may be one installed in the actual solenoid or an
implied resistance from the wiring of the coil. Probably the
standard practice would be the thing to do. If this were not a
circuit that has been wired up a few million times per year since the
flood, I would include a resistor and fuse in the actual switching
circuit for the master relay and also the starter solenoid.
There does seem to be a fuse for the starter solenoid called
"Instruments" and limited to 10 amps. Again, I have no idea how much
current the starter solenoid uses for switching the primary current
to the starter.
I would suggest a review of the fuel pump circuits by someone more
experienced than me. The diodes look funny. I can't imagine what
their purpose might be. Also, I don't see the point of having 10 amp
fuses in series to each fuel pump. One for each pump should
suffice. If two are needed for some reason then it seems the first
one should be 20 amps to allow for each fuel pump to draw 10 amps as
allowed by its fuse.
I am also a little confused by the alternator hookup. This is no
surprise since I have no experience with this kind of circuit. My
memory as a Cessna pilot is that there should be separate master
switches for the alternator circuit and battery circuit. This allows
for separate control so a faulty circuit can be shut down while still
supplying power to avionics and other stuff. This diagram seems to
wire both sides of the master switch for battery function and not any
for the alternator. Again, I would suggest a review of this function
by someone more familiar with common practice in airplanes than I have.
Best regards,
Paul
At 12:08 AM 12/7/2006, you wrote:
>Hi Matt and Paul,
>
>Paul's summed up the issues and I've already wired my latest Jabiru
>as he has recommended.
>
>The only issue he didn't mention is starter solenoid sticking.
>
>What do you do in the unlikely event that the starter solenoid
>(contactor/relay) sticks closed?
>
>With the master contactor powering everything you merely open the
>master and all goes quiet. If the starter solenoid is wired direct
>you can't do this. A 'starter engaged warning light' powered from
>the starter feed is also a good idea to warn you off this problem.
>
>Regards, Clive
>
>P.S. I've sent my latest wiring diagram to you direct for
>information. If you see anything wrong with it let me know!
>
>Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Matt & Jo a crit :
> Thanks for the reply. I probably didn't explain my question
> correctly. I have been using the Aeroelectric semantics for my basic
> set up. Follow this link to my schematic
> http://www.zodiacxl.com/Electrical.html
>
>
Matt and all,
Had a quick glance at the diagram. Very close to the Aeroelectric Z 16.
A very good basis indeed.
As already mentioned, it is important to have the battery contactor
power everything in the ship, including the starter contactor. Thus you
have some control in case of starter contactor sticking. Besides, you
comply with the FARs which require that no big wire be "hot" when the
master switch is off. It is a safety issue.
I do not concur with the "starter direct from the battery" opinion. Very
large aviation engines, with lots more cranking amps than the little
Jabiru are using the battery contactor architecture.
I would like to point out that the "avionics and lights" bus switch is a
single point of failure. Should the switch fail, you lose all radios,
lights, low-voltage warning, fan (?) and all ...
Have you considered feeding the radio and transponder from the E-bus ?
Apart from this point, your architecture seems very sound to me.
As for the rest of your message, I'm not sure what the point is with
the Jabiru starter solenoid.
Regards,
Gilles Thesee
Grenoble, France
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Thanks for your review. I struggled with the radio and transponder on the E
bus at first. My logic for taking it off is that if I do have a problem I
want the minimum to get it down. Really don't need the radio and
transponder for that. Plus they present a significant load. So I moved
them over to the avionics buss. I uploaded my final diagram to my website.
This one removed the Jab solenoid and I made some other changes.
http://www.zodiacxl.com/Electrical.html
I would like to say this is the final. But I will probably change it a
couple of more times. I also have a copy of the Delta CAD file if anyone is
interested.
Thanks for all the comments.
Cheers
Matt
www.zodiacxl.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gilles Thesee" <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Sent: Thursday, December 07, 2006 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: JabiruEngine-List: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid
> <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Matt & Jo a crit :
>> Thanks for the reply. I probably didn't explain my question correctly.
>> I have been using the Aeroelectric semantics for my basic set up. Follow
>> this link to my schematic
>> http://www.zodiacxl.com/Electrical.html
>>
>
> Matt and all,
>
> Had a quick glance at the diagram. Very close to the Aeroelectric Z 16. A
> very good basis indeed.
> As already mentioned, it is important to have the battery contactor power
> everything in the ship, including the starter contactor. Thus you have
> some control in case of starter contactor sticking. Besides, you comply
> with the FARs which require that no big wire be "hot" when the master
> switch is off. It is a safety issue.
> I do not concur with the "starter direct from the battery" opinion. Very
> large aviation engines, with lots more cranking amps than the little
> Jabiru are using the battery contactor architecture.
>
> I would like to point out that the "avionics and lights" bus switch is a
> single point of failure. Should the switch fail, you lose all radios,
> lights, low-voltage warning, fan (?) and all ...
> Have you considered feeding the radio and transponder from the E-bus ?
>
> Apart from this point, your architecture seems very sound to me.
>
> As for the rest of your message, I'm not sure what the point is with the
> Jabiru starter solenoid.
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> Grenoble, France
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
>
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