Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 12:24 AM - Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors (Matt Dralle)
2. 07:18 AM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (vozzen)
3. 03:28 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Kayberg@aol.com)
4. 04:07 PM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Gilles Thesee)
5. 05:10 PM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Kayberg@aol.com)
6. 05:17 PM - Re: Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Paul Mulwitz)
7. 05:50 PM - Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid (Kayberg@aol.com)
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| Subject: | Matronics Fund Raiser - 2006 List of Contributors |
Dear Listers,
I would like to thank everyone that made a Contribution in support of the Lists
this year! It was really nice to hear all great comments people had regarding
the Lists! As I have said many times before, running these Lists is a labor
of love. Your generosity during the List Fund Raiser only underscores the great
sentiments people have made regarding the Lists.
If you haven't yet made a Contribution in support of this year's Fund Raiser please
feel free to do so. The nice List gifts will be available on the site for
just a little while longer, so hurry and make your Contribution and get your
great gift. Once again, the URL for the Contribution web site is:
http://www.matronics.com/contribution
I would like to thank Andy Gold of the Builder's Bookstore ( http://www.buildersbooks.com ), Paul Besing of Aeroware Enterprises ( http://www.kitlog.com ), Jon Croke of Homebuilt HELP ( http://www.homebuilthelp.com ) and Bob Nuckolls of AeroElectric ( http://www.aeroelectric.com ) for their extremely generous support during this year's Fund Raiser through the contribution of merchandise. These are great guys that support the aviation industry and I encourage each and every Lister to have a look at their products. Thank you Andy, Paul, Jon and Bob!! Your support is very much appreciated!
And finally, below you will find a web link to the 2006 List of Contributors current
as of 12/7/06! Have a look at this list of names as these are the people
that make all of these List services possible! I can't thank each of you enough
for your support and great feedback during this year's Fund Raiser!
THANK YOU!
http://www.matronics.com/loc/2006.html
I will be shipping out all of the gifts in the next few weeks and hope to have
everything out by the end of the month. In most cases, gifts will be shipped
via US Postal Service. Kitlog Pro serial numbers should go out via email this
weekend.
Once again, thank you for making this year's List Fund Raiser successful!
Best regards,
Matt Dralle
Matronics Email List Administrator
Message 2
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Matt--
On taking redio and transponder off the E-bus:
I think you'll find that the radio, on receive, takes minimal current. The transponder
could be left in standby (ident/on when needed), also using little juice.
And do you have ON/OFF switch on each?
Dont forget, the master relay (unless you're using the Z-20 (IIRC) version without
it) pulls about 1 amp, probably as much as both radio and xponder on "idle".
In other words, why not leave radios on Ebus, so they are available, if needed,
without the master being on.
I agree on your orginal question that the starter relay and "solenoid" are redundant.
[is it ever really "final"??]
--Rico, XL/3300, modified Z-16
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p133#80133
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
I suppose I should keep my mouth shut, but in case there are other folks who
are daunted by the diagram Modified Z-16, I want to affirm your desire for
simplicity. I am impressed by the efforts of Vozzen and Rico. I dont mind the
efforts of electical engineers to plan for every possible failure mode. I
understand that some experimental aircraft builders want to build an
electrical system to rival any of the General Aviation fleet.
But there is another strategy. If you are careful about the avionics you
purchase, use some common sense and dont install a comprehensive lighting
system ( how badly do you want to crash at night? .... if you dont have lights
you wont be tempted..) and are willing to just read your own voltmeter, you can
have a simple system that can be installed in a few hours instead of a few
months.
It is ok to use a couple toggle switches for your ignition kills. It is ok
to just run breaker switches or switch and fuse to a couple radios. If you
keep your electical loads down, then you dont need much of an alternator. As
you may know, if you have too big a load on the Jabiru alternator, you can
crispy the stator. You can add another seperate alternator, but why would you
want to?
The notion of a solonoid operated by a master switch sounds good, but if the
wire or coil in it goes south, so does your electrical power. That may
balance the possiblity of shorting the big wire to the starter solonoid.
If you are building a small, high performance bird like a Sonex and want to
make it IFR, by all means design and build as complicated an electrical system
as possible. May I suggest autopilot, a Garmin radio stack, electrical
gyros and a seat warmer? The extra time it takes to build all that will
prolong your life just that much longer.
I am just saying that IN MY OPINION, it is perfectly OK to only have a
couple circuits. One for the start, one for the radios and one for a couple
other small things. If you are a bit paranoid, then include a switch in the
charging circuit so you can shut off the alternator power to the battery if your
volt meter gets too high. Hook the power circuits to the post on the
starter solonoid that the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to
disconnect the battery. It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have
some drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...but
when is the last time your car did that to you? It is wired the same way.
Just buy a new start solonoid every 500 hours or so. That should preclude the
arcing from dirt.
Ok, so let the reactions begin. I'm sure I deserve to be flamed.
Doug Koenigsberg
Message 4
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Doug,
> Hook the power circuits to the post on the starter solonoid that
> the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the
> battery. It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some
> drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...
The use of a battery contactor (be it relay or manually actuated) is
mainly related to fire hazard. What is the rationale for keeping an
always hot fat wire and not being able to to cope with a sticking
starter solenoid ? Does it really bring any advantage over
state-of-the-art aviation architecture ?
> but when is the last time your car did that to you?
Hmm, there have been some starter issues.
I'll try to stay away from car related "when is the last times" about
Jabiru.
Maybe when the dust settles down and those SBs are relaxed ;-)
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
> I
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
In a message dated 12/8/2006 7:08:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes:
Doug,
> Hook the power circuits to the post on the starter solonoid that
> the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the
> battery. It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some
> drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...
The use of a battery contactor (be it relay or manually actuated) is
mainly related to fire hazard. What is the rationale for keeping an
always hot fat wire and not being able to to cope with a sticking
starter solenoid ? Does it really bring any advantage over
state-of-the-art aviation architecture ?
> but when is the last time your car did that to you?
Hmm, there have been some starter issues.
I'll try to stay away from car related "when is the last times" about
Jabiru.
Maybe when the dust settles down and those SBs are relaxed ;-)
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
Message 6
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Hi Doug,
Rather than flame you, I want to thank you for extending the
conversation on electrical design. I am new to this issue and am
happy to consider different ways to go.
I am building a Zodiac XL for (primarily) day VFR use. I definitely
appreciate the starter motor over hand propping, and would like to
have enough radios to penetrate busy airspace. Still, I opted for
navigation and strobe lights. On the other hand, I don't really need
fault tolerance to insure safe flight completion.
I guess I would like to understand the simplest approach to
electrical system design. From that point it makes sense to consider
things like master contactors to deal with possible electrical fires
and things like that.
For general consideration about adding parts to an airplane I will
attempt to quote the designer of a plane I built many years ago. He
suggested: "Throw it up in the air. If it comes down it is too heavy."
Best regards,
Paul
At 03:27 PM 12/8/2006, you wrote:
>I suppose I should keep my mouth shut, but in case there are other
>folks who are daunted by the diagram Modified Z-16, I want to affirm
>your desire for simplicity. I am impressed by the efforts of Vozzen
>and Rico. I dont mind the efforts of electical engineers to plan for
>every possible failure mode. I understand that some experimental
>aircraft builders want to build an electrical system to rival any of
>the General Aviation fleet.
>
>But there is another strategy. If you are careful about the avionics
>you purchase, use some common sense and dont install a
>comprehensive lighting system ( how badly do you want to crash at
>night? .... if you dont have lights you wont be tempted..) and are
>willing to just read your own voltmeter, you can have a simple
>system that can be installed in a few hours instead of a few months.
>
>It is ok to use a couple toggle switches for your ignition
>kills. It is ok to just run breaker switches or switch and fuse to
>a couple radios. If you keep your electical loads down, then you
>dont need much of an alternator. As you may know, if you have too
>big a load on the Jabiru alternator, you can crispy the stator. You
>can add another seperate alternator, but why would you want to?
>
>The notion of a solonoid operated by a master switch sounds good,
>but if the wire or coil in it goes south, so does your electrical
>power. That may balance the possiblity of shorting the big wire to
>the starter solonoid.
>
>If you are building a small, high performance bird like a Sonex and
>want to make it IFR, by all means design and build as complicated an
>electrical system as possible. May I suggest autopilot, a Garmin
>radio stack, electrical gyros and a seat warmer? The extra time
>it takes to build all that will prolong your life just that much longer.
>
>I am just saying that IN MY OPINION, it is perfectly OK to only have
>a couple circuits. One for the start, one for the radios and one
>for a couple other small things. If you are a bit paranoid, then
>include a switch in the charging circuit so you can shut off the
>alternator power to the battery if your volt meter gets too
>high. Hook the power circuits to the post on the starter solonoid
>that the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to
>disconnect the battery. It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you
>will have some drama while the starter twirls the engine until the
>battery dies...but when is the last time your car did that to
>you? It is wired the same way. Just buy a new start solonoid
>every 500 hours or so. That should preclude the arcing from dirt.
>
>Ok, so let the reactions begin. I'm sure I deserve to be flamed.
>
>Doug Koenigsberg
-
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Jabiru Starter contactor and solenoid |
Bonjour Gilles,
I am the proud USA importer of the French kit airplane, the Sky Ranger!
Phillippe Prevot of Best Off has done a great job of designing a strong, light,
quick to build craft. ( see _www.skyranger.net_ (http://www.skyranger.net)
or our website, _www.skyrangeraircraft.com_ (http://www.skyrangeraircraft.com)
)
My thoughts are from my experience with installing a Jabiru 2200 in a Sky
Ranger and a 3300 in a Lightning.
I just run the large power wire about 6" to the starter solenoid. I would
attached fused or breaker protected circuits from the post there to elsewhere.
If one of them were to short, I would expect protection to kick in or if it
shorted on the way to the breaker, I would expect the wire to just fry
without much damage. The runs are short and the firewall penetration carefully
protected.
I note that the same large 6" wire would go to the master solenoid and then
another 6" wire would to to the Jab start solenoid. No real difference in
protection for the large wire. In either case it has a 6" unprotected run. But
if the master solenoid, which must be continously held in place by current
were to experience low voltage, coil failure, switch failure or a wire break
then all power would be lost......unless one has a backup circuit that bypasses
the master....which is the situation I began at. I understand that popular
aviation thought is in love with the master solenoid, but I am wondering if it
adds complexity and vulnerability to solve an unlikely problem...on very
simple light airplanes. I like them more on GA airplanes with their 60 -100 amp
circuits with retractable gear, lights, dog polishers and window foggers.
Part of my other work involves control circuits in ground equipment and they
do short out and melt down. The damage is minimal usually for small guage
wires...the sizes used for 10 amps or less. Of course a short can cause a
fire but there must be combustables nearby and the insulation must be
combustable. Otherwise a brief arc, a brief smell and it is all over.
If a starter solenoid actually stuck, it will just keep turning the engine
untill the battery power is drained or the starter melts down. While
disconcerting, it would happen on the ground and be over quickly. No so if your
master solenoid craps out in the air. You lose radios, EIS, intercom, flaps
and whatever else you power. Worse, you may not be able to replace it
easily on the ground. Without it you could not start up and fly somewhere for
another one.
I mentioned the failure of an auto start solonoid because the Jab part is
one!. Jabiru tries to use common auto parts where possible.
Ca va?
Doug
In a message dated 12/8/2006 7:08:23 PM Eastern Standard Time,
Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr writes:
--> JabiruEngine-List message posted by: Gilles Thesee
<Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
Doug,
> Hook the power circuits to the post on the starter solonoid that
> the big battery cable goes to...just so it is easier to disconnect the
> battery. It is true that if the solonoid sticks, you will have some
> drama while the starter twirls the engine until the battery dies...
The use of a battery contactor (be it relay or manually actuated) is
mainly related to fire hazard. What is the rationale for keeping an
always hot fat wire and not being able to to cope with a sticking
starter solenoid ? Does it really bring any advantage over
state-of-the-art aviation architecture ?
> but when is the last time your car did that to you?
Hmm, there have been some starter issues.
I'll try to stay away from car related "when is the last times" about
Jabiru.
Maybe when the dust settles down and those SBs are relaxed ;-)
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
> I
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