Today's Message Index:
----------------------
1. 01:39 AM - Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 (Miguel Maia de Loureiro)
2. 04:43 AM - Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (TELEDYNMCS@aol.com)
3. 06:24 AM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Paul Mulwitz)
4. 06:49 AM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Lynn Matteson)
5. 07:08 AM - Uncrating Engine (sonex293)
6. 07:10 AM - Re: More Propeller Questions (sonex293)
7. 08:46 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine (its4jes@aim.com)
8. 09:22 AM - Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 (Gilles Thesee)
9. 09:54 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine ()
10. 09:57 AM - Re: Uncrating Engine (Lynn Matteson)
11. 01:37 PM - Re: Uncrating Engine (Miguel Maia de Loureiro)
12. 01:53 PM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Miguel Maia de Loureiro)
13. 02:11 PM - Shielded wires with modern ignition systems (Jeff Davidson)
14. 02:15 PM - Re: Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 (Gilles Thesee)
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 |
Hello Gilles,
Most Alpi Pioneer 300's flies with short wing versions and ROTAX 912S, as
Pioneer Team flies. About prop eficiency, it's not linear. Pitching prop
with different values did seam to be linear as well. 160 knots can be done
with high energy, that means, pitch down the bird at about -250 ft/min at
full. In 3 o 4 seconds you're there. Level out and keep full power. 125
Knots at 70% 'cause larger wings induce more drag and better lift
On 2/25/07, Gilles Thesee <Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr> wrote:
>
> Gilles.Thesee@ac-grenoble.fr>
>
> Miguel Maia de Loureiro a =E9crit :
> > I'm flying a Pioneer 300S with Jab3300 and a DUC prop with 64in. Got
> > to be careful not to reach VNE at 160 Knots. Takeoff? Less than 300
> > ft! Climbs at 1900ft/min at 80Knots (BRC). Cruises at 125 Knots at
> > 70%. 14L/h Unlead 98 oct.
> >
> > What you say?
> Miguel,
>
> Those numbers are most impressive indeed. 300 ft run, 1900 ft/min. 80 kt
> seems a bit high for best rate of climb. Alpi states something closer to
> 65 kt.
> Do you really mean you're close to 160 kt at WOT ? In that case, 70%
> cruise should be closer to 140 kt ?
>
> Regards,
> Gilles Thesee
> http://contrails.free.fr
>
>
===========
===========
===========
>
>
--
Miguel Maia de Loureiro
Ultralight Pilot Suport Services
Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04
e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 |
In a message dated 2/26/2007 2:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes:
I would be shocked if your Jabiru didn't outperform a Rotax 912S on
nearly any airplane. For one thing it has 20 or 30 percent more horse
power.
Hi Paul,
Yes, it would seem that way, wouldn't it? What is really shocking is the
folks over on the Yahoo Jabiru forum who claim exactly the opposite. Rotax is
the only way, dontchaknow? One fellow in particular claims that anyone building
a Europa with a Jabiru will be sorely disappointed when his Rotax 912S
powered Europa friends "go right by", meaning that he claims the 912S Europa is
faster. False. This fellow also claims that the few extra lbs the Jab has over
the Rotax 912S causes the handling to suffer. False again. There are many
Europa's flying with engines heavier than the Jab, i.e., Subaru, Continental
0-200, etc, with no ill effects. I've taken this one through many positive
aerobatic maneuvers and it is a delight to fly at all areas of the envelope. Not
only is the Jab powered Europa faster, it climbs better, and we've measured it
to be quieter, too. Fuel consumption is slightly higher than the 912S, but
otherwise, having flown both, the Jab/Europa is a superior combo in my
opinion. It is certainly several orders of magnitude smoother than the Rotax,
too.
(and the Jab is considerably cheaper) I really like the lines the longer cowl
gives the Europa as well. Gone is the goofy "doghouse" on the bottom cowl
that contains the Rotax radiator and the stubby look it gives the stock Europa.
Mine looks more like a cross between a Europa and a Lancair. It draws a crowd
everywhere I go.
I've offered to race any of their 912S powered Europa trigears and or demo
the outstanding performance of this combination to them, but so far no
takers. It seems that although a few claim to know everything about Jabiru powered
Europa's, only one has any direct experience and that one was a completely
different firewall forward and prop than mine. The others are merely parroting
this one owner's experience. Typical and sad at the same time.
I look forward to the release of the Airmaster hub for this prop. My Europa
XS is absolutely screaming for constant speed!
Regards,
John Lawton
Dunlap, TN (TN89)
N245E
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free
email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at
http://www.aol.com.
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 |
Hi John,
I had to drop the Jabiru list at Yahoo. It was just too boring. It
seemed to be endless repetition of the same information. I just
couldn't stand the hundredth report of how to stop one particular
kind of leak or another.
I don't know if you follow the Zenith builder's list at Matronics. I
made a post there a couple of days ago answering one lister's
question about high RPM. I mentioned that auto conversions and other
engines which were originally designed for non-aircraft use tended to
have PSRUs to make them compatible with propellers. I got one
response from a Rotax owner denying his Rotax 912S had snowmobile
ancestry. You'd think I suggested his mother wore combat boots.
The one lesson from this whole exchange is there is a lot of emotion
and biased information when it comes to home builders and their engines.
A couple of quick comments on your post:
1. I suspect your Jab powered Europa will outperform any tail
dragger as well as any tricycle gear Rotax 912S powered plane. It
turns out that RVs with tricycle gear only lose a couple of MPH over
tail draggers of the same design. Surprisingly, this is in a 200 mph design.
2. I think the biggest impact of extra horse power in an airplane is
in the climb performance. While you might get a little more cruise
speed you should get a lot more climb when you add 30 percent more
power to a plane.
3. I envy you in your quest for a constant speed Jabiru
installation. I can't do that myself since I don't want to get a
medical. That means I am limited by the Sport Pilot rule that
requires fixed or ground adjustable props.
Best regards,
Paul
Still building, Zodiac XL
do not archive
At 04:43 AM 2/26/2007, you wrote:
>In a message dated 2/26/2007 2:58:19 AM Eastern Standard Time,
>jabiruengine-list@matronics.com writes:
>I would be shocked if your Jabiru didn't outperform a Rotax 912S on
>nearly any airplane. For one thing it has 20 or 30 percent more horse power.
>
>
>Hi Paul,
>
>Yes, it would seem that way, wouldn't it? What is really shocking is
>the folks over on the Yahoo Jabiru forum who claim exactly the
>opposite. Rotax is the only way, dontchaknow? One fellow in
>particular claims that anyone building a Europa with a Jabiru will
>be sorely disappointed when his Rotax 912S powered Europa friends
>"go right by", meaning that he claims the 912S Europa is faster.
>False. This fellow also claims that the few extra lbs the Jab has
>over the Rotax 912S causes the handling to suffer. False again.
>There are many Europa's flying with engines heavier than the Jab,
>i.e., Subaru, Continental 0-200, etc, with no ill effects. I've
>taken this one through many positive aerobatic maneuvers and it is a
>delight to fly at all areas of the envelope. Not only is the Jab
>powered Europa faster, it climbs better, and we've measured it to be
>quieter, too. Fuel consumption is slightly higher than the 912S, but
>otherwise, having flown both, the Jab/Europa is a superior combo in
>my opinion. It is certainly several orders of magnitude smoother
>than the Rotax, too. (and the Jab is considerably cheaper) I really
>like the lines the longer cowl gives the Europa as well. Gone is the
>goofy "doghouse" on the bottom cowl that contains the Rotax radiator
>and the stubby look it gives the stock Europa. Mine looks more like
>a cross between a Europa and a Lancair. It draws a crowd everywhere I go.
>
> I've offered to race any of their 912S powered Europa trigears and
> or demo the outstanding performance of this combination to them,
> but so far no takers. It seems that although a few claim to know
> everything about Jabiru powered Europa's, only one has any direct
> experience and that one was a completely different firewall forward
> and prop than mine. The others are merely parroting this one
> owner's experience. Typical and sad at the same time.
>
>I look forward to the release of the Airmaster hub for this prop. My
>Europa XS is absolutely screaming for constant speed!
>
>Regards,
>
>John Lawton
>Dunlap, TN (TN89)
>N245E
>
>
>----------
>AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about
>what'227241x4298082137/aol?redir=http://www.aol.com"
>target="_blank">AOL.com.
---------------------------------------------
Paul Mulwitz
32013 NE Dial Road
Camas, WA 98607
---------------------------------------------
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 |
Thank you Paul, for a voice of sanity regarding which
group...Matronics or Yahoo...to read/respond to. I tried to help
steer folks over here, and nearly got tarred and feathered. I wish
more folks would attend this site. The only problem is that Yahoo is
where the traffic is...so far. Pete and Andy have both tried to steer
the traffic here to Matronics but no luck yet, so I get 'em both.
Lynn
Kitfox IV Speedster...Jabiru 2200
do not archive
On Feb 26, 2007, at 9:24 AM, Paul Mulwitz wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> I had to drop the Jabiru list at Yahoo. It was just too boring.
> It seemed to be endless repetition of the same information. I just
> couldn't stand the hundredth report of how to stop one particular
> kind of leak or another.
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| Subject: | Uncrating Engine |
Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question.
When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for
any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage
was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone
have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've
just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want
to damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts.
Thanks Guys!
--
Michael Crowder
Sonex #293
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401
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| Subject: | Re: More Propeller Questions |
Based on some owner feedback, I think I'm going to order a Prince P-Tip prop for
my Sonex Jab3300. Climb performance and Prop Noise were the two biggest factors
in my decision.
Thanks,
Michael Crowder
Sonex #293
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97402#97402
Message 7
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| Subject: | Re: Uncrating Engine |
Get the video from Zenith, its a new video and is really thorogh, covers the
uncrating and installing the 3300.
Lots of luck
J Schultz
601xl builder w/3300 on order
-----Original Message-----
From: sonex293@nc.rr.com
To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
Sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 7:08 AM
Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine
Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question.
When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for
any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage
was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone
have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've
just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to
damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts.
Thanks Guys!
--
Michael Crowder
Sonex #293
Read this topic online here:
http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401
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Message 8
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| Subject: | Re: Sensenich mated to a 3300 |
Miguel Maia de Loureiro a crit :
> 160 knots can be done with high energy, that means, pitch down the
> bird at about -250 ft/min at full. In 3 o 4 seconds you're there.
Miguel,
Understand. Makes sense.
Thanks,
Best regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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| Subject: | Re: Uncrating Engine |
Are you talking about the video from HomeBuiltHelp? The one on Jabiru 3300 installation
on Zentih aircraft does cover un-crating.
Dred
---- its4jes@aim.com wrote:
> Get the video from Zenith, its a new video and is really thorogh, covers the
uncrating and installing the 3300.
>
> Lots of luck
>
> J Schultz
> 601xl builder w/3300 on order
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sonex293@nc.rr.com
> To: jabiruengine-list@matronics.com
> Sent: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 7:08 AM
> Subject: JabiruEngine-List: Uncrating Engine
>
>
> Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have another question.
>
>
> When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to inspect for
> any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging the engine and no damage
> was found. I did notice however, that the engine ships upside down. Anyone
> have any advise on getting the engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've
> just borrowed a hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want
to
> damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts.
>
> Thanks Guys!
>
> --
> Michael Crowder
> Sonex #293
>
>
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________________
> Check Out the new free AIM(R) Mail -- 2 GB of storage and industry-leading spam
and email virus protection.
Message 10
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| Subject: | Re: Uncrating Engine |
Mine was shipped right-side up...at least with all the writing on the
crate up, and the skids down, and the top of the crate off, I was
looking at the top of the engine.
Lynn
On Feb 26, 2007, at 10:08 AM, sonex293 wrote:
> <sonex293@nc.rr.com>
>
> Ok, now that we have some traffic here on Matronics, I have
> another question.
>
> When my Jab 3300 engine arrived I took the top off of the crate to
> inspect for any damage. Jabiru does an excellent job of packaging
> the engine and no damage was found. I did notice however, that the
> engine ships upside down. Anyone have any advise on getting the
> engine un-crated and flipped right side up? I've just borrowed a
> hydraulic engine hoist to aid in the effort, but I don't want to
> damage the engine in my efforts to get it on the engine mounts.
>
> Thanks Guys!
>
> --
> Michael Crowder
> Sonex #293
>
>
> Read this topic online here:
>
> http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=97401#97401
>
>
Message 11
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| Subject: | Re: Uncrating Engine |
>From now on, as in the begining, J3300 will be shiped with oil sump to the
upper side and avoid smash of muffler cover. Anyway, you always can turn th
e
box up side down and remove the bottom of the box, unscrewing it. Other way
is to rotate the box with engine front side to the ground, unscrew the inne
r
wood bars, rotate all engine 180=BA, and flip it to some smooth plate ot
something. I'm working with Jabiru Dealer to Portugal and Spain, so we've
done it few times with two persons direct to the top of a table, with flang
e
down.
By the way, did you had any problems with hydraulic pushers? Any strage
noise, something like "tic tic" like an untuned valve or something?
--
Miguel Maia de Loureiro
Ultralight Pilot Suport Services
Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04
e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com
Message 12
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 |
In the lower speed, in the higher speed, in gas and oil consuption, in
weight, in less noise, parts prices, TBO hours, and global price... Jabiru
is better than ROTAX... and Jabi is a kid that can fly full power constantly
'til stop few hours later; ROTAX is a grand-father who born to cut grass.
Have you noticed the noise she makes at starts and shuting down 'cause of
the reduction gears? It looks like my mother in law. It's a reliable engine
with some caution. Everybody get used to it. Jab is another engine concept,
made for fly. Some things i would like to see changed in Jabi, like
cylinders AL alloy.
--
Miguel Maia de Loureiro
Ultralight Pilot Suport Services
Cel.: +351 91 419 21 04
e-Mail: ultralight.flyer@gmail.com
Message 13
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| Subject: | Shielded wires with modern ignition systems |
The following posting was made to the AeroElectric list, but I thought it was appropriate
here on the Jabiru Engine list as well. Jeff Davidson
"Time: 07:21:17 AM PST US
From: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckollsr@cox.net>
Subject: Re: AeroElectric-List: Re: Shielded wires with modern ignition systems
. . .
At 10:52 PM 2/24/2007 -0800, you wrote:
>
>The Jabiru mags are not "electronic ignition" as commonly classified.
they
>do have a transistor switch inside.
>
>Although shielding the P lead is not necessary, best practice is to run in
>shielded lead, ground the shield at mag end to a spare thread hole (on the
>alternator statorplate will do). At the mag switch end, the shield is
>connected to the gnd terminal of the switch, but not connected to the
>airframe here.
>
>during running, there are over 200v of spikes on these lines. Refer to the
>files section on Yahoo Jabiru/engines group, "radio noise" , look
for
>jab.coil primary - a photo of the trace on the P lead.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jabiruengines/files/Radio%20noise/
Excellent data sir! Thank you. I'm disappointed to hear about
it though . . . you would think that a company so obviously
dedicated to the use of modern machining and manufacturing
techniques would go a step further with their ignition system.
Having said that, I'll have to acknowledge that their decisions
may well have been based on a considered trade off between
cost and performance . . . and using shielded ignition control
leads has been a standard practice in aviation since the first
radio went into an airplane perhaps 95 years ago!
Okay, based on expanded knowledge offered by our brother Ralph,
we know that optimal wiring for the engine is POORLY explained on
page 10 of the Jabiru 3300 installation manual. Ralph
correctly cites the need for shielded wire and I concur
with the techniques he suggested above.
Bob . . .
----------------------------------------
( IF one aspires to be "world class", )
( what ever you do must be exercised )
( EVERY day . . . )
( R. L. Nuckolls III )
---------------------------------------- "
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| Subject: | Re: JabiruEngine-List Digest: 4 Msgs - 02/25/07 |
Miguel Maia de Loureiro a crit :
>
> In the lower speed, in the higher speed, in gas and oil consuption, in
> weight, in less noise, parts prices, TBO hours, and global price...
> Jabiru is better than ROTAX... and Jabi is a kid that can fly full
> power constantly 'til stop few hours later; ROTAX is a grand-father
> who born to cut grass. Have you noticed the noise she makes at starts
> and shuting down 'cause of the reduction gears? It looks like my
> mother in law. It's a reliable engine with some caution. Everybody get
> used to it. Jab is another engine concept, made for fly. Some things i
> would like to see changed in Jabi, like cylinders AL alloy.
> *
> *
Miguel,
This is just to say there is no perfect engine.
Only engines that suit some definite set of requirements, with some
degree of proven reliability.
Reliability has something to do with the number of million flight hours
achieved.
There is no reason or no need to criticize the Rotax 91X engines to
establish the qualities of the Jabiru line of engines. Better stick with
facts.
If you need price, lightness, simplicity, fixed pitch, then the Jabiru
will be your choice.
As for power, the rated continuous power of the 3300 is 107 hp, so no
continuous full power, as with any aero engine.
Concerning the TBO, it takes many many engines reaching TBO before you
can be certain of the advertised numbers. And as you just told, the
Jabiru is still a young kid and building flight experience ;-)
By the way, what is wrong with the Rotax reduction gear ?
Regards,
Gilles
http://contrails.free.fr
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